Does this video show a working self propelled magnetic engine?

Originally posted by charlyv
Basically, science really needs to provide the educational principles that will allow everyone to understand that a perpetual motion machine is really a concept, an unobtainable goal that is used as a bell-weather so we can measure just how efficient any closed mechanism or process may be. There should never be any discussion about achieving it, for that automatically becomes pseudo-science. This fact needs to be emphasized ad-nauseum in schools.

Nonsense.

If there is no discussion about it this means that scientist are not open minded or objective. This is when science believes it's dogma so to the point it becomes religion. I don't want my science to be religion. The very tenets of science itself demand open minded objectivity. If you shut that off, you don't have science at all, your science becomes pseudo-science and religion. You just signed sciences own death warrant.

At best we can say with our present understanding of science that we believe a true perpetual motion machine is not possible. It must never however rule out the possibility that we don't know everything about science or physics and with new information theories on these possibilities can change. If this isn't allowed, then it's not science at all. There have been many dogmatic tenets of science that people felt just as strongly about that have now been shattered by new information.

Who says a perpetual motion machine or if you will a long running "free" energy device has to be a closed system? Why not several closed systems working together or an open system that's uniquely designed in ways we haven't thought of yet?

Seriously fascinating stuff here. I wonder why they don't sell simple stuff like flashlights with this technology?

Originally posted by powerdrone
Seriously fascinating stuff here. I wonder why they don't sell simple stuff like flashlights with this technology?

I haven't been able to try it yet but you just gave me a good idea on making a prototype flashlight from this technology - if it works.

Other things I can make are of course a fan and even an electronic cigarette. ( you just need s small amount of electricity to make the coil of an e-cig work)

reply to post by JohnPhoenix


Vvery elequently stated, star for you sir.
It really hasn't been that long since the last time the Royal Academy of Science stated that every worth discovering had been discovered, you know before flight, or electricty, or atoms, or steam power, or the thousands of forms of carbon, or rocketry, or internal combustion........you get the idea.

Science must never be in the positioon of saying anything is flat out impossible, as for the tenthousandth time now at least they have been wrong.

We know next to nothing about physics, as evidenced by the complete lack of a unified field theory. All the forces work together in unison, look around, the universe exists, we still can't get them to work together on paper. We still don't know what causes gravity, yes they are over 90% sure they found the higgs, but they aren't positive still, and even if they do, what causes the higgs field to work? They have no clue still, they only have unproven conjecture, that is redundantly in oposition to other also viable theories on the subject.

Einstein himself said that his theory of relativity was not perfect and was only a stepping stone to the true laws of physics that govern space and time, yet they are taught and parroted as gospel truth, much like L ron Hubbards, dianetics, wasn't meant to be anything but a good story to make one think, now it is a religion(scientology).

People are too full of themselves and drunk on hubris, most of the time to remain objective enough to actually question and learn.

Just think what would have happened if Einstein would have listened to his physics professor who told him " oh you think your smarter then Newton?" If he hadn't gone against the grain and searched out truth, we would be vastly farther behind than we are now.


So just remember, stop being so sure of your limited grasp of the physics of the universe, that even the guys who wrote them admit are not do all fix all be all solutions, but only a start. One never knows what will be learned through experimentaion.

reply to post by JohnPhoenix

Who says a perpetual motion machine or if you will a long running "free" energy device has to be a closed system? Why not several closed systems working together or an open system that's uniquely designed in ways we haven't thought of yet?

A sound understanding of the lingual nuances related to physics & engineering would enable you to understand the concept of a closed system and why a perpetual-motion device(PMD) can only be considered such if running in a closed system.

In this case a closed system means that the PMD can not receive an energy input from an outside source. It must power itself without any assistance at all and produce more energy than it consumes - It must have an efficiency of >100% to overcome any friction/loss.

Originally posted by OccamAssassin
reply to post by JohnPhoenix

 

Who says a perpetual motion machine or if you will a long running "free" energy device has to be a closed system? Why not several closed systems working together or an open system that's uniquely designed in ways we haven't thought of yet?

A sound understanding of the lingual nuances related to physics & engineering would enable you to understand the concept of a closed system and why a perpetual-motion device(PMD) can only be considered such if running in a closed system.

In this case a closed system means that the PMD can not receive an energy input from an outside source. It must power itself without any assistance at all and produce more energy than it consumes - It must have an efficiency of >100% to overcome any friction/loss.

I do understand this. I'll give you that one. I misspoke. For a true perpetual motion machine you must have a closed system. That type of system needs to never have friction or energy loss problems so it will run forever.

But since we know that's not likely, let's shoot for something more likely. A long running "free" ( as in self sustaining) energy device. I believe this can be done with an open system or a series of closed systems working in concert.

This is where I get my definitions of closed and open systems:

II. Thermodynamic systems
Energy transfer is studied in three types of systems:

Open systems can exchange both matter and energy with an outside system. They are portions of larger systems and in intimate contact with the larger system. Your body is an open system.

Closed systems exchange energy but not matter with an outside system. Though they are typically portions of larger systems, they are not in complete contact. The Earth is essentially a closed system; it obtains lots of energy from the Sun but the exchange of matter with the outside is almost zero.

Isolated systems can exchange neither energy nor matter with an outside system. While they may be portions of larger systems, they do not communicate with the outside in any way. The physical universe is an isolated system; a closed thermos bottle is essentially an isolated system (though its insulation is not perfect).

www.bluffton.edu...

Look at the video of the Free Energy Magnetic Moror.. the CPU fan and magnets from the hard drive. The only way you cant have this do electrical work that would cause the system to stop is if your getting that electrical energy from the magnets themselves that are spinning the wheel. I don't propose to do that. I propose to put a shaft on the spinning center of the wheel and then add magnets and a coil to the other end of the shaft - a totally separate system independent of the spinning wheel and it's magnets you see.. ( except that the other end of the shaft is being spun by that device) This creates electromagnetic induction to produce other electricity. That is the energy that can be used. This never crosses or upsets the fields of the spinning wheel and it's magnets so it won't stop the device.

OK so lets break this down into small bites since you can't seem to digest big bites. The second you just slap on a secondary shaft with magnets and a coil it will require REAL PHYSICAL WORK to generate the power. Physics does not respond to semantics.... No matter how you phrase this idea it still won't work. Where you got the impression that electrical work didn't require physical work to create is beyond me.

Originally posted by roguetechie

Look at the video of the Free Energy Magnetic Moror.. the CPU fan and magnets from the hard drive. The only way you cant have this do electrical work that would cause the system to stop is if your getting that electrical energy from the magnets themselves that are spinning the wheel. I don't propose to do that. I propose to put a shaft on the spinning center of the wheel and then add magnets and a coil to the other end of the shaft - a totally separate system independent of the spinning wheel and it's magnets you see.. ( except that the other end of the shaft is being spun by that device) This creates electromagnetic induction to produce other electricity. That is the energy that can be used. This never crosses or upsets the fields of the spinning wheel and it's magnets so it won't stop the device.

OK so lets break this down into small bites since you can't seem to digest big bites. The second you just slap on a secondary shaft with magnets and a coil it will require REAL PHYSICAL WORK to generate the power.

That physical work is already being done as evidenced by the turning of the fan itself. If the shaft and magnets aren't that heavy, it will still turn. I could make it lighter by removing the fan blades themselves.( assuming this isn't a hoax to begin with) I could use a very tiny motor as a generator to produce the electromagnetic induction needed for just a little bit more energy than I would get off the fan leads themselves. This would give my my starting energy to do things with like charge the capacitors.

Physics does not respond to semantics.... No matter how you phrase this idea it still won't work. Where you got the impression that electrical work didn't require physical work to create is beyond me.

You misunderstand. I never said that electrical work didn't require physical work to be produced. I know as in a generator, or in this case, a tiny motor acting as a generator, the shaft must be spun. That's physical work that produces electricity via electromagnetic induction.

Which a PMM can't generate without running down. So we're essentially back to the Permanent Magnet Motor can possibly run for an extended amount of time but as soon as you try to get WORK out of it it loses power quickly.

Like I said you can't fool physics with clever wording. Just because you don't consider a separate shaft running a generator under load (aka charging a capacitor) requires a definite amount of work which PMM's can't do without winding down and eventually stopping. Heck even you have agreed this is the case at one point or another in this thread.

You know how prosecutors and judges will tell you ignorance of the law is no excuse?

This whole argument falls under the same category. You are arguing from a position of ignorance stating that things can or will do things they just plain can't or won't do. In addition you're arguing that because you renamed work to electrical work that it changed the fact that PMM"s can't function under load and keep spinning.

LIke I said in my first post in this thread. I'm on your side I really think there are technologies out there that can revolutionize humanity, but permanent magnet motors probably just aren't one of them.

Also just as a post script here try looking in a dictionary or science book for a separate entry for electrical work and normal work. You won't find on because work is work and PMM"s can run they just can't do work. Connecting the motor to a shaft to turn a generator is most definitely doing work.

reply to post by roguetechie


I believe he meant to say that the system he intends to try to create wuld be an open system, much like a human body, where many closed systems would work in tandem to achieve the desired effect of indefinite power generation, through many scalings of of power transfer and recovery through several differing devices, that would operate through electrical recovery and distribution, instead of solid gears and levers.

Also as I stated above, one should not jump to quickly one the "it is not possible" train, as it often leaves early with you to arrive at the crow eating platform, much sooner than one would think like or anticipate. See the history of science for details. "Man can't fly, travling to the moon is impossible, everything worth discovering has been discovered..etc" thinking we have even an inkling of the true possibilities of the universe at this early a stage is beyond ignorant, we just. Learned to fly barely 100 years ago.

Imagine the state of the world if the wright brothers had taken the advice you just metted out, or Einstein. As almost every great mind and inventor has received the same advice from those with to little imagination to look up and out beyond our horizons. We would still be eating bugs, and banging women over the head with a club.

reply to post by roguetechie


He was talking abour rare earth magnets, BTW not semi permanent permanent magnets. Just thought I would point that out. As they are not subject to the same loss ratios as the crappy black mags.

Originally posted by JohnPhoenix
But since we know that's not likely, let's shoot for something more likely. A long running "free" ( as in self sustaining) energy device. I believe this can be done with an open system or a series of closed systems working in concert.

Science only contradicts the functionality of a "free energy" device in a closed system. If the system is open, not only is there no problem with the laws of science, but such devices have already been invented, for example this device runs based on an open system, and needs no electricity to run until the bearings wear out:

Atmos clock

It's powered by the air. My father has one so I know they work.

reply to post by inverslyproportional


I find it pretty amusing when people start preaching at me for not believing hard enough.

The reality is I myself am slowly but surely working to replicate a lloyd tanner friction boiler which isn't OU but is definitely highly efficient and even more highly unorthodox to hopefully heat and power my motor home with.

I'm also working towards an engineering degree in school so I can get in on building the technology of the future. I am also a very staunch believer that there are technologies either already out there or just waiting to be discovered that will launch humanity into an unprecedented golden age;

Now with all of that said, I still think PMM's like this perendev unit are scams or bad measurement. I'd further submit that I also think if someone took Joe Flynn's parallel path technology and Correlated Magnetics type "programmed" magnets you might be able to get real close to a working design.

But as of right now we haven't seen anything of the sort, and i predict we probably won't see it in the future either because most PMM scams work just fine without actually investing in the technology it would take to even give it an honest try.

Originally posted by inverslyproportional
He was talking abour rare earth magnets, BTW not semi permanent permanent magnets.

Please explain the difference between rare earth magnets and semi permanent or permanent magnets. I have a rare earth magnet and it's a permanent magnet, isn't it?

reply to post by inverslyproportional


You might think that being ignorant about the most basic scientific principles is being "open minded" but it's not. Being open minded does not mean believing nonsense that is invalidated by science you have neither bothered to learn or experiment with. Ironically, that is the very definition of closed mindedness.

Now, funny you should use the Wright Bros as an example to aid your case. It is a complete myth that they were mavericks that went against the grain and did something revolutionary entirely off their own backs. They actually built on the cutting edge of scientific research, expanding scientific understanding incrementally, just like how science works. It was only an outspoken few who denied their claims, most scientist were perfectly aware that what they wanted to achieve was possible.

What you DIDN'T have was ignorant laymen hadn't even bothered to understand the known principles of aerodynamics and other areas of research pertinent to the task at hand so in fact your example of the Wright Bros is in fact completely contradictory to the argument you are trying to make.

reply to post by roguetechie


I wasnt preaching, I was stating facts. Hard scientific truths, many just assume they know everything because they were told they did.

I apologize if you misunderstood my meaning.

I would like to hear more about your design, when you get it working, sounds like a very good idea. There is a whole world out there that is waiting eagerly for these technologies, I for one wait with much anticipation.

I dont believe i will likely see any in my lifetime though, unfortunately.

hopefully you will prove me wrong, in the near term.

Good luck

reply to post by Arbitrageur


Rare earth magnets are much better for this type of device than your standard permanent magnets, as they are far more powerful and have much higher coercivity.

making them much better for this type of application, as they are better in every way but price.

meaning they give much more bang for the buck

reply to post by john_bmth


I f your intent was to be obtuse, you succeeded! If you are trying to say I am ignorant on this subject well....

I went to college for computer and electronic engineering, I do have extensive knowledge of what i am talking about, I dont claim to be the worlds foremost mind on electromagnetism, if that was what you were trying to insinuate.

As I have nothing further to add that is of a constructive manner I will bid you good evening, and hope for a more cooperative dialog with you at another time. If such a thing is possible.

Originally posted by roguetechie
Which a PMM can't generate without running down. So we're essentially back to the Permanent Magnet Motor can possibly run for an extended amount of time but as soon as you try to get WORK out of it it loses power quickly.

Looking at the CPU fan and hard drive motor video - assuming this does spin as in the video - How is putting a shaft on it long enough to connect a tiny motor going to interact with the spinning fan blade/shaft to slow it down in any way shape or form?

The fields from both ends of the device are going to be far enough apart so they wont interfere with each other.

How are the laws of physics going to know to say, ' Oh hey, wait, we can't do that, so I'll magically take my magic forces and run way over to the other end of the device and stop that separate magnetic field from running! That will show em."

Like I said you can't fool physics with clever wording. Just because you don't consider a separate shaft running a generator under load (aka charging a capacitor) requires a definite amount of work which PMM's can't do without winding down and eventually stopping. Heck even you have agreed this is the case at one point or another in this thread.

You know how prosecutors and judges will tell you ignorance of the law is no excuse?

This whole argument falls under the same category. You are arguing from a position of ignorance stating that things can or will do things they just plain can't or won't do. In addition you're arguing that because you renamed work to electrical work that it changed the fact that PMM"s can't function under load and keep spinning.

I did no such thing. All I said was lets use this device to produce electricity instead of using it to push or pull something. You know, a motor or generator is self contained and can be heavy. A very simple electromagnetic induction device doesn't have to be. The only weighty part will be the tiny magnets with coils on the shaft. The shaft itself can be the size of a toothpick. This can weight very little. The magnets placed around it to create the induction wont have to weigh on the shaft at all. If it can tun the big plastic fan blade, I see no reason why it cannot turn this shaft. Especially if I cut the blades off and bring the weight back to what I would have had when I started. Think of the fan blade morphing into an elongated plastic shaft with a coils of tiny magnets and coils at it's end.. same thing

LIke I said in my first post in this thread. I'm on your side I really think there are technologies out there that can revolutionize humanity, but permanent magnet motors probably just aren't one of them.

Also just as a post script here try looking in a dictionary or science book for a separate entry for electrical work and normal work. You won't find on because work is work and PMM"s can run they just can't do work. Connecting the motor to a shaft to turn a generator is most definitely doing work.

What Exactly is stopping this shaft from turning? (in your words - I know what can stop it but I want to follow your thinking to see where your mind is) ( this is where I will find the flaw in your answer) As you say, the PMM will run - you admit that much - Er.. how do you know it's running if it "cant do work under any circumstances" ?

What if I glued a speck of sand to the fan blade? It has to do More Work to turn the blade now because it's heavier... heck.. the fact that its turning a big plastic blade in itself IS work. How the heck is the fan blade side supposed to know what I'm doing way over at the other end? - It can't and wont - unless it's magic. I'm not breaking any laws of physics here at all with this design, I'm sure of it.

I tried that free energy fan setup from page 5 I think, took about 10minutes and it didn't work at all. The vid did look convincing but there has to be a trick (hidden hall sensor/reed switch and button cells). I am amazed no one would at least try and insist on bickering instead.

So, I wasted some tape and time rearranging some magnets on different computer fans, now I know it won't work the way its shown and now I don't have to bicker about the realness of it.