Does this video show a working self propelled magnetic engine?

So let me get this straight you're willing to use what is probably at least a thousand dollar motor to generate milliwatts? which you quite frankly won't be able to do for even an extended period of time because the magnets will be ran down by their configuration and or the machine will reach equilibrium and lock up like magnet motors do. But either way even in the BEST CASE scenario you're talking HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS worth of generators to produce even 1 watt of power.

Originally posted by roguetechie
So let me get this straight you're willing to use what is probably at least a thousand dollar motor to generate milliwatts? which you quite frankly won't be able to do for even an extended period of time because the magnets will be ran down by their configuration and or the machine will reach equilibrium and lock up like magnet motors do. But either way even in the BEST CASE scenario you're talking HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS worth of generators to produce even 1 watt of power.

A thousand dollars? The magnets can be had on ebay for maybe $20. The rest can be scrounged. Did you see it reaching equilibrium in the video? Magnets run down over what a few hundred years?

Willing to use? All I am doing is pointing out that as its built with a minor modification it becomes an over-unity machine. Nothing more, nothing less. Please do learn to read. Or bother to read.

reply to post by winnar

A thousand dollars? The magnets can be had on ebay for maybe $20. The rest can be scrounged. Did you see it reaching equilibrium in the video?

Just think, the time you have wasted in here trying to prove that your not an idiot could have been spent building your device.

Magnets run down over what a few hundred years?

This is why I wonder if your just trolling because this has been explained to you several times over the course of this thread and you never seem to pick up on it or you are purposefully glossing over it.

The life of a magnet is directly proportional to the work done by the magnetic field.

If you sit the magnet in a draw and don't use it.....it will last for 100's of years.

If you fit the same magnet to a motor, it's life will be directly proportional to the work done......Work it hard and it won't last ten years. Take it easy and you might get 50 years out of it before the strength of the permanent magnets drop to a point where the motor is no longer efficient.

You can easily prove this by repeatedly sliding a piece of ferrous metal across a magnet(Mechanics/carpenters generally do this to screwdrivers to hold screws to the drive head). The piece of metal will now have a small magnetic charge/field.

If you were to measure the fields of the two objects before and after magnetizing the ferrous metal, you will notice that the donor field will be slightly weaker and the receiver will be slightly stronger.

Originally posted by winnar
A thousand dollars? The magnets can be had on ebay for maybe $20. The rest can be scrounged. Did you see it reaching equilibrium in the video? Magnets run down over what a few hundred years?

Willing to use? All I am doing is pointing out that as its built with a minor modification it becomes an over-unity machine. Nothing more, nothing less. Please do learn to read. Or bother to read.

People have been trying to build over-unity machines for centries and you figured out all that was needed was a minor modification, and you barely need to spend any money?

You never bothered to spend a few bucks and prove your idea? Why not?

So wait a second you can butild a working PMM with 20 dollars worth of magnets and scrounged parts?

First off you aren't going to be able to scrounge custom machined rotors and etc I don't know what fantasy world you live in.

Second off buy 20 dollars worth of magnets and you'll get 20 dollars worth of magnets... spend a few hundred bucks on neodymium magnets and you might accomplish something.

Third I was being EXTREMELY generous when I said the motor probably cost a thousand dollars. To be clear I think if you were making ten thousand of them they could be had for a thousand dollars each but if you're just making one or two you're looking at 5 or more times that for machining costs alone.

But hey you can feel free to disbelieve me all you want.... If you want to learn something however do yourself a favor and go to emachineshop.com and design a relatively simple rotor assembly and see what price they quote you for one of them. And bear in mind that quote isn't going to cover the cost of dynamically balancing all of your moving parts which you will most definitely need to do with a precision Permaent Magnet Motor.


You can pitch a fit and stomp your feet all you want it isn't going to change the fact that this magnet motor design in particular won't work the way you want it to.

Roguetechie, $1000 for the device in the first video on page one would be amazing. I could buy a minilathe for $500 and have it paid for in a day! I could be rich! The problem is, no one in their right mind would pay a machinist even $80 to make that. Maybe thats why the economy is the way it is, the govt. does that sort of thing lol.

Now if you are taking about a device like that one that makes over 100watts, sure. To spend $1000 on a proof of concept with 3 moving parts and no gears is just silly. I doubt someone on youtube would spend $1000 on a hoax let alone a working proof of concept that outputs less then a watt.

For a verl low friction bearing, rip apart an old VHS video recorder and get the drum out. Then use a drill press and a sharp razor blade to lathe a 1/4-1/2" thick piece of plexiglass to the inner diameter of a larger pvc tube...yadda yadda yadda. You don't need alot of money to make it, just time, a creative mind and a plan.

reply to post by OccamAssassin



Whats a draw?

And twice now you've misspelled you're then run around calling others idiots.

Originally posted by roguetechie

Second off buy 20 dollars worth of magnets and you'll get 20 dollars worth of magnets... spend a few hundred bucks on neodymium magnets and you might accomplish something.

Where the eff are you shopping? Have you even ever held a neodymium magnet?

You can pitch a fit and stomp your feet all you want it isn't going to change the fact that this magnet motor design in particular won't work the way you want it to.

I'm not the one pitching a fit and getting posts removed. You guys are. Oh in case you havent noticed the motor is already working and putting two small coils where I say will generate a small current without stopping it.

It's funny that with all you guys science whining none of you have addressed that I'm not talking about putting the coils along the rotor where it would drag. Or that where Ive said to put them is being mechanically lifted and then just dropped via gravity. You know Im right.

Originally posted by OccamAssassin

This is why I wonder if your just trolling because this has been explained to you several times over the course of this thread and you never seem to pick up on it or you are purposefully glossing over it.

The life of a magnet is directly proportional to the work done by the magnetic field.

If you sit the magnet in a draw and don't use it.....it will last for 100's of years.

So I ever said perpetual motion or did I say over-unity? It doesnt matter if it runs for minutes or for years If you put 0 in and get even a tiny bit out its what? There you go throwing up straw men again. Sad really.

So what's a draw? And why didnt you answer about the youtube video and your 'degree' being equated?

reply to post by winnar


sigh

a manufactured magnet its not a free energy source

Originally posted by john_bmth
Perpetual motion could easily be proven without running for ever. Output >= input, simple as that. To date, nothing has been demonstrated as even coming close to, let alone over, unity.

Fools, running for perpetual motion?

IF E=mc^2, and you have Ein < Eout, what happens to m?

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
reply to post by winnar

 

sigh

a manufactured magnet its not a free energy source

never claimed that either

With the amount of illiteracy going on Im having a hard time believing the veracity of anything you guys claim. Especially anything RE: education. Cant get educated if you cant read.

reply to post by winnar

So I ever said perpetual motion or did I say over-unity? It doesnt matter if it runs for minutes or for years If you put 0 in and get even a tiny bit out its what? There you go throwing up straw men again. Sad really.

Do you realise that over-unity, PMD, ZPE, etc are all the same concept?

The amount of time the machine operates for is irrelevant. The whole concept is to have an output greater than the input.

So what's a draw? And why didnt you answer about the youtube video and your 'degree' being equated?

Do you really think that I will openly hand out my identity to someone who seems mentally unstable?

Everything that you have been told can be easily verified using nothing more than wikipedia.

Unfortunately, most of what you have claimed wrt PMD's can be dis-proven with math.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04

Originally posted by rickymouse

What that needs is one of those rocking wood/plastic ducks that worked off a cup of water to move the magnet in and out. Does anyone remember those bobblehead ducks from the sixties?

And what moves the duck? Or is it magic?

Wow you never saw the duck?

It's probably why so many kids think perpetual motion is possible, because that's how it looks:

The Drinking Bird – Scientific Toy for the Ages

He looks a little ridiculous, a fuzzy headed bird with a top hat and a big bottom. Yet in the 55 years since it was patented generations of children (not to mention those who refer to themselves as grownups) have laughed at his bobbling, dipping and nodding. Yet behind the chortles and chuckles there is some serious science – this drinking bird seems to violate the laws of physics.

Seeming to do something and doing something are, of course, entirely different things and the drinking bird, also known as the dipping, dippy or even bobble bird is not, as some have suggested, a perpetual motion machine. The bird ducks, takes a sip of water and bobs right back upright, rocking gently. However, instead of becoming still the rocking becomes progressively wilder until he dips down and takes another drink. This seems to go on and on – perpetually as it were.

Unfortunately, I haven't been able to take my house off the grid with an army of bobbing ducks, but it's a cool toy!

I think my point was missed, I was at work so maybe I was less clear than I should have been. The duck requires energy to move at first, then self sustains itself as a heat engine. It will stop eventually. It only moves for as long as it does because it does almost no "work", it needs to be light. So making a duck that did actual "work" would prevent the duck from moving. I imagine it would have to be a very powerful heat engine to move a heavy magnet, which would require a lot of energy.

The amount of time the machine operates for is irrelevant. The whole concept is to have an output greater than the input.

I am going to point out a few things that might not seem obvious in the above statement that I made in my last post.


The input energy includes any energy used in manufacture.

Therefore, the energy used to acquire & manufacture the raw materials must be included in the equation that verifies as to whether the device is producing more energy than was ever expended over the life of the device.

This is why a PV solar panel can not be considered to be over-unity, even if you consider the sun to be an unlimited supply of energy and part of the closed system.

Why?

A solar panel requires more energy to manufacture(the last time I checked, the T.output is about 1/3 of the T.input) than it will ever be able to output in its lifetime.

reply to post by winnar


There is only one thing that matters. You claim this can be done for $20, and have not done it. This alone proves that you are a troll. If this worked you would be a billionaire tomorrow. When you have a working device let us know. Oh, and your belief that spelling or grammar has anything to do with intelligence or engineering speaks volumes about you.

Ummm... No in reference to your coils on the cam if they were big enough to give you a usable amount of current for powering anything more power intensive than a watch or digital timer would have to be strong enough to exert a definite dragging force on the rotors through the cam interaction.

Second even if you only limited it to enough power to power a watch or digital timer it would still exert enough drag on the machinery to slow the machine down. Now it might take it awhile to slow the machine down but eventually it would do it. All you're doing by making the current produced that small is prolonging the inevitable.

Third just because you put the coils and magnet far enough away from the works for the magnetic fields not to interact in no way means that you can just generate energy for free. Otherwise you'd see generators with extremely long shafts on the market.. which you don't.

Fourth I'd love to see the average ATS'er just "buy a mini lathe" and crank out a precision balanced magnet motor. ... See I've actually worked with a lathe before and I'm not ashamed to tell you that I could not produce precise enough parts to do what you are talking about doing.

Fifth Occam and the others are correct in stating that in order for something to be considered overunity it must produce more power than it takes to make and run the device. Otherwise dams and solar power are overunity by your definition.

Sixth This argument is just plain getting silly you're arguing from a position of ignorance about everything from basic physical laws to the economic realities of prototype construction and most definitely a lack of understanding of magnetism and electricity.

seventh What you fail to realize is that some of us actually want to be proven wrong.... I'd be tickled freaking pink to see a working PMM ... but none of the devices in this thread are anything close to that. As a matter of fact the original video that kicked this thread off is a known hoaxer/scammer. And the PC fan motor was tried by a poster on this thread and did not work.

Eighth and finally while I applaud your persistence maybe your time would be better spent actually getting out and experimenting so you can learn things for yourself rather than arguing with people who are trying to help you understand things. Better yet you could get your feet wet in designing and building small scale electronics projects by building something real and workable like the windbelt micro wind power generator.

en.wikipedia.org...

There are all sorts of REAL and viable technologies that could use enthusiastic and interested individuals getting behind them and pushing to get them developed.

Roguetechie, I contest that you still don't need NASA type 0.0001mm accuracy to do something as simple as make something balanced. You just need a low friction bearing from a VCR, small weights, tape and a magic marker (but not real magic, that would just be silly right? lol). Just make the device with a VCR drum, then mark the side that always seems to rest at the bottom after a small push and then just add a tiny weight (maybe just tape alone) to the top untill the part that rests on the bottom is random. Sure it takes time, but its fun imo.

I would build the device in the first vid (near the end of the video), but I don't have the magnets AND I am fearful it won't work. I feel if I don't build it, I can hold out hope that it may work lol. The fan took very little time and I had the parts, there was no time to get my hopes up. I would say that if it did work, you could put a coil near the rotating magnets (not the lifted magnet) and get some wattage. Sure it will slow it down, all loads slow down ANY motor/engine no matter how far away the load is, but it is the degree the motor is slowed down. If half a watt slows it down 50% and it spins for a year untill parts wear out, I would call it a success even if I can not do anything with that amount of power

Originally posted by OccamsRazor04
I think my point was missed, I was at work so maybe I was less clear than I should have been. The duck requires energy to move at first, then self sustains itself as a heat engine.

The bird doesn't require any mechanical energy to move at first, if that's what you meant. It begins operation as a heat engine:

Drinking bird

The initial state of the system is a bird with a wet head oriented vertically with an initial oscillation on its pivot.

The process operates as follows:

The water evaporates from the felt on the head.
Evaporation lowers the temperature of the glass head (heat of vaporization).
The temperature decrease causes some of the dichloromethane vapor in the head to condense.
The lower temperature and condensation together cause the pressure to drop in the head (by the ideal gas law).
The higher vapor pressure in the warmer base pushes the liquid up the neck.
As the liquid rises, the bird becomes top heavy and tips over.
When the bird tips over, the bottom end of the neck tube rises above the surface of the liquid.
A bubble of warm vapor rises up the tube through this gap, displacing liquid as it goes.
Liquid flows back to the bottom bulb (the toy is designed so that when it has tipped over the neck's tilt allows this), and pressure equalizes between the top and bottom bulbs
The weight of the liquid in the bottom bulb restores the bird to its vertical position
The liquid in the bottom bulb is heated by ambient air, which is at a temperature slightly higher than the temperature of the bird's head.

It will stop eventually.

Why? As long as you keep it supplied with water and as long as the sun shines it will keep going, with maybe a little maintenance like compensating for wear on the pivots. I couldn't make it work in the desert, but anywhere with access to a sufficient supply of rainwater or a mountain stream would be enough to keep the necessary water level maintained. I think I could make one that would basically run until the earth gets so hot the oceans dry up. Since all humans on Earth will be dead by that time what happens after that is somewhat moot to Earthlings. However it would require large water storage tanks and the economics don't make much sense as discussed below.

It only moves for as long as it does because it does almost no "work", it needs to be light. You don't understand the operation of the drinking bird. While it does help to make it light, this has nothing to do with how long it moves. So making a duck that did actual "work" would prevent the duck from moving. I imagine it would have to be a very powerful heat engine to move a heavy magnet, which would require a lot of energy.

You could extract energy from the drinking bird, but of course you are correct that there's a limit to how much energy you can get out, and the wiki provides this information. The evaporative heat flux from the bird's head is 0.5W, but due to ineffeciencies, the power that can be extracted is only 1 microwatt. (Pretty inefficient, eh?) Since I need about 1000 watts to run my home, I'd need a billion drinking birds to make that much energy, and I don't think I can fit that many in my house, but even if I did, there would be nowhere left for me to live.

I'd have a better chance of taking my house off the grid with small antennas that grab free EM energy from the air, because even though I'd need the same number of those (they might also produce 1 microwatt each), they would take up less space than the birds, since you can print the antennas on something as thin as a sheet of paper or perhaps even thinner. I ran the numbers, and the payback time on my initial investment would be about 1.5 million years, so all the energy it produces AFTER 1.5 million years from now would be completely free. The birds would probably require at least 10 times the initial investment, so the payback time would be about 15 million years. Since my goal is a payback period of 10 years or less, these solutions just aren't economical or practical at today's energy costs.

However, these projections are not entirely accurate, because over the next few centuries fossil fuels will become more scarce, and if no alternatives are in use by then they will be prohibitively expensive. So if fossil fuels become 10 or 100 times more expensive, those payback times might be reduced by those factors respectively but they are still too long, and they are too impractical. But, what if you could figure out how to get more than .000001W from that heat engine that's operating at 0.5W? That should be possible.

Some people, like me, actually analyze this stuff. So when roguetechie says it's not economical to make something expensive that produces very little power, he's probably right, and I've actually run some rough numbers to prove it in these examples.