The Men In Black(OPs) The Aviary & UFOs

Originally posted by OkabeRintaro
...My point with expounding upon the events in the 1960s, though, was to point out that a lot of interesting and well-documented things were happening at that time. When influential people are very active, they end up being active around each other, and paths of communication form. Affinity groups form, indistinguishable from conspiracies except for the judicious application of Hanlon's Razor. While I doubt the people I mentioned were necessarily colluding (specifically, I like and trust Paul Linebarger and I don't think he was probably capable of going along with the idea of #ing with the heads of a whole group of people for a long period of time in ambiguously defined ways; he goes on and on about ethics in his book, saying that avoiding particular forms of psyops are what separate the allies from the Nazis, etc.), we can still trace the ideas back.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, sir. I'm certainly not suggesting that a competent and comprehensive conspiracy run solely by a "central agency" spanning the decades is exactly what we are looking at here...but I don't think Hanlon's Razor and coincidence totally explain all the issues discussed herein either:

Hanlon's razor is an eponymous adage that allows the elimination of unlikely explanations for a phenomenon. It reads:

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

en.wikipedia.org...'s_razor

Certainly, however, some of our key players do exhibit Hanlon's "stupidity."

Then again, I don't totally eschew the possibility that it's all an unrelated cluster-buck of bad ideas and ill-intention. Still and all: I personally don't find this robust Venn chart of charlatans and Machiavellian intent to be unrelated either.

No, Okabe, I can't help but feel that the evidence, as a whole, suggests that something truly world-changing has been in the works since at least 1947. Something that bleeds over into all of these areas of interest. It's either a deep, subconscious, inherent human mechanism that foments "change" at any cost from time to time...or something more bizarre and other-wordly than even that.

Originally posted by The GUTYeah, don't get me wrong, sir. I'm certainly not suggesting that a competent and comprehensive conspiracy run solely by a "central agency" spanning the decades is exactly what we are looking at here...

I didn't think you did, really. You quoted RAW earlier, and that generally indicates that someone is too smart for that . I wanted to clarify that I didn't.

but I don't think Hanlon's Razor and coincidence totally explain all the issues discussed here either:

Hanlon's razor is an eponymous adage that allows the elimination of unlikely explanations for a phenomenon. It reads:
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

en.wikipedia.org...'s_razor

Certainly, however, some of our key players do exhibit Hanlon's "stupidity."

Then again, I don't totally eschew the possibility that it's all an unrelated cluster-buck of bad ideas and ill-intention. Still and all: I don't find this robust Venn chart of charlatans and Machiavellian intent to be unrelated either.

No, Okabe, I can't help but feel that the evidence, as a whole, suggests that something truly world-changing has been in the works since at least 1947. Something that bleeds over into all of these areas of interest. It's either a deep, subconscious, inherent human function that foments "change" at any cost from time to time...or something more bizarre and other-wordly than even that.

I agree. There was certainly something happening, and some part of it was intentional. I tend, though, to think of MK-ULTRA as being representative of the general competence level involved (and also representative of the budget), rather than Lansdale's vampire trick (which was both cheap and effective).

The most interesting part, to me, is how ideas that come up in utopian and idealistic contexts get recycled in the name of order, or get progressively darker in actuality. (If you have ever seen the horror film Beyond the Black Rainbow, it's a very good example of this... I call it the Apple Store Dystopia, in part because of the way that Star Trek invokes it, and in part because of a section in Neal Stephenson's essay In the Beginning... Was the Command Line. I suspect that large segments of the intelligence community structurally resemble the administrative mess in Beyond the Black Rainbow, moreso than the far more transparent administrative mess in Terry Gilliam's Brazil.) This was one of the themes in Ronson's coverage of the topic (currently annoying me since it doesn't have an index), and I'm sad that he didn't cover it or research it more fully. Specifically, the way in which MK-ULTRA was holding up a darkened mirror to the similar experiments being done by the Merry Pranksters and Leary's group at Harvard and at Millbrook (including the total lack of oversight and experimental controls) is worth looking into -- RAW darkly hinted that he thought the '___' ban might have gone into effect because the CIA thought Leary might replicate their findings and publish them!

reply to post by OkabeRintaro
Speaking of Lansdale, I've often thought his "Vampire" trickery got more credit than it deserved. Excellent child-psychology to be sure, but still and all Child Psych 101. You can fool some of the people some of the time...but, no matter what some might believe, you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Hence our discourse here. The good press probably orchestrated by Landsdale himself--which would be Child Psych 102.

Btw, you mentioned Jack Parsons earlier. May I ask why?

Your admirable logic and breadth of knowledge is more than welcome here and appreciated, Okabe. I sincerely have much respect for you already and I'm sure I'll continue to learn from you, but as far as the long Train of topic(s) presented here, does your engine have a bottom-line Caboose? Especially as it all might (or might not) have a bearing on the shenanigans of the so-called "Aviary" and the psyops that are directed at ufology?

With regard to the idea that something came from the outside to poke at the world's memes around 1947, we can certainly follow that thread in several directions! While I personally lean toward the idea that wartime experimentation continued without the normal peacetime oversight because of the special condition of distrust of the Soviets and their allies (which may only just barely explain the changes in culture during that period), we can persue the idea of information dumps from increasingly alien sources.

On the fully mundane level, Paperclip brought in geniuses who had been living in the bizarre alternate umwelt constructed out of Nazi propaganda, wartime pressures, and a focus on the minutae of the strange new sciences of sub-atomic physics, rocketry, and computing. While the allies had people working on these subjects too, there were a lot of weird axioms in place for the Nazis, including completely ignoring discoveries and techniques attributed to jews (a major issue -- it meant they had to ignore all of the contributions of Einstein and Godel, among others). The german scientists brought in after the war had pretty alien mentalities. We could branch out to nazi occultism here, or to nazi ufos (although I suspect that the nazi ufo thing is purely memetic). Life in the west was memetically pretty strange as well, with people supporting ideas like mutually assured destruction that in the cold light of retrospective seem utterly insane. The political changes between the immediate pre-war period and the immediate post-war period, even limited to the United States, are *huge*: prior to the war, the United States had prominent and public communists and fascists, some in political power, with little stigma; after the war, both ideas were anathema.

Other solid, physical groups of real documented humans made of atoms who had strange ideas and started introducing them to the general public around 1950 include Bell Labs employees, the mescaline-ingesting segment of the Beat movement (plus the mescaline-ingestic Aldous Huxley), and the creators of horror-themed comic books aimed at world war two veterans.

On the slightly more aethreal level, there are people who allege that the moonchild ritual Jack Parsons performed invoked the Roswell crash. This is pretty strange, and certainly Jack Parsons never bought it, but it conveniently links Al Crowley, masonic initiatory systems of western occultism, NASA, and scientology together with a well-documented UFO flap. This one is hard to research, particularly for non-occultists, since a lot of the source material is at least alchemical in language (if not resorting outright to encoding ideas in numerology, making it difficult to pull them out without adding a whole lot of noise and uncertainty). Allen Greenfield covered this angle in his two wonderfully named books, The Secret Cipher of the UFO-nauts and The Occult Rituals of the Men in Black, and it's covered in passing in John Carter's surprisingly scholarly biography Sex and Rockets.

On top of that, we have the possibility of real contact with physical extraterrestrials in nuts-and-bolts ships, along with varying degrees of indirection in the form of telepathy and so on. (We also have the Shaver mythos, here.) The main issue with this particular angle is that if we take it seriously, it's been going on since long before 1947, particularly amongst spiritualists and theosophists.

Another angle is the one covered in Clarke's Childhood's End, which I shy away from primarily because it is the privilege of those living in the present to perpetually believe that the apocalypse is near, and that people have been taking advantage of this privilege with both positive and negative spins for the entirety of the written record (going back to around four millennia BC, when a wealthy man complained that kids these days are lazy, skipping school and hanging around the street busking with their lutes and growing out their hair).

Originally posted by The GUT
reply to post by OkabeRintaro

 

Speaking of Lansdale, I've often thought his "Vampire" trickery got more credit than it deserved. Excellent child-psychology to be sure, but still and all Child Psych 101. You can fool some of the people some of the time...but, no matter what some might believe, you can't fool all of the people all of the time. Hence our discourse here. The good press probably orchestrated by Landsdale himself--which would be Child Psych 102.

Good point. Lansdale's vampire trick seems pretty obvious in retrospect. However, when Linebarger completely failed to mention tricks of that type in his book on the subject, I started to think that perhaps it was clever at the time.

Btw, you mentioned Jack Parsons earlier. May I ask why?

Your admirable logic and breadth of knowledge is more than welcome here and appreciated, Okabe. I sincerely have much respect for you already and I'm sure I'll continue to learn from you, but as far as the long Train of topic(s) presented here, does your engine have a bottom-line Caboose? Especially as it all might (or might not) have a bearing on the shenanigans of the so-called "Aviary" and the psyops that are directed at ufology?

I'm casting a wide net. I can reign it in if the signal to noise ratio is too low; I'm chasing down tangential relations still, to get a feel for the topic and the characters involved.

Jack Parsons, from what I've read, is surely not a 'player'. While clearly intelligent, he was easily manipulated. He comes into the mythos, and is worth mentioning as a thread to pick up, but probably not from the angle of a purely military-intelligent-driven operation.

reply to post by OkabeRintaro
^^^Great posts^^^ Yes, I do believe we are buzzing around the same hive.

An interesting coincidence of dates: Project CHATTER (a precursor to MK-ULTRA focusing on using drugs for interrogation, including the 'truth serum' scopolamine, but also including mescaline) went on during the period from fall of 1947 to 1953, and took place in Maryland. This corresponds somewhat with the time during which Lansdale was teaching in Colorado (1948-1950), but more closely corresponds to the time between the establishment of project SIGN and the Robertson Panel investigation. A weak connection, unfortunately; Wright-Patterson AFB was run out of Ohio, Lansdale was teaching at an air force base in Colorado, and CHATTER was run out of a Naval base in Maryland (and was, according to Wikipedia, closed because it utterly failed to produce results in the Korean war).

This posting takes the Parsons-Spiritualist-ET-Mind-control-Spook tack all the way: runesoup.com... . It's interesting reading, and name-drops all the right people, but while the author has yet to say anything stupid about occultism or psychology, he has repeatedly butchered physics and so I'm distrustful of his grasp of history (particularly given his incautious attitude toward retelling the particular kind of fantastic story he tells here, without sufficient references). The story may be old hat to some of you, but it was new to me (I read something *similar* but not identical on rigint a handful of years ago, but that was firmly tied into the invocation of 'Phillip', which happened in the 1970s).

Anyhow, I have an extended list of names to look into now.

reply to post by OkabeRintaro
I'll dig into runesoup a bit more although the thought occurs that Peter Levenda's Sinister Forces Trilogy might be a more straight line approach to a lot of this information with sources included. The main reason being that one can determine for themselves the strength of the sources and find leads on other reading material.

Peter has an impressive knowledge bank and makes some great points along the way, but does seem to run into Hanlon at times...as we all will here and there.

Still and all, a consistent pattern emerges. The most curious of all is the ever-prescence of intelligence and psyops personnel in proximity to most all of the "events" in our category. Shake the occultic rug and all kinds of slimy little intel pathogens fall out. Why?

"The Secrets of Aleister Crowley" written by Amado Crowley , who claimed to be Crowley's illegitimate son, is a rattling good read. in a sense I don't think it matters who Amado might, or might not have been and I don't buy Suster's explanation for dismissing his claims. There's every chance, given Crowley's capricious nature, he might well have tutored young Amado and kept it to himself. I think it's wholly possible that, Amado was "chosen" by Aleister tutored and had no actual links to Crowley's bloodline. However, that's by the by really, as the book goes into some detail about the "spooks" and their links to the occult. Amongst the tall tales, there are definitely something truly interesting nuggets and several people I have spoken to, who were "in the know", reckon Amado was nowhere near the fantasist, some would have you believe.

reply to post by The GUT


Is anything strange going on in you're State?

Originally posted by The GUTShake the occultic rug and all kinds of slimy little intel pathogens fall out. Why?

Even if we avoid the idea of collusion, it still makes sense that there's an occult-intel connection. Both the occult and the intelligence community attract intelligent novelty-seekers with wide-ranging interests and a particular fascination with secrecy, and both attract people with obsessions with the human mind. Crowley's recommendation for a budding mage (a neophyte must speak several languages, be capable of mathematics and chemistry, be experienced in theatre, rhetoric, dancing, and swordplay... &c) would equally apply to a wannabe spy.

On top of this, occult groups of the type represented by the Order of the Golden Dawn are good spots for infiltration. Pseudo-masonic structure means that you have a chain of command, but the rules for graduating through the ranks means that an infiltrator doesn't need to go through the same order of magnitude of effort that a soldier would to get to a rank wherein he can exert substantial influence upon lower levels of the order. Certainly, occult groups of the pseudo-masonic variety were constantly infiltrating each other (and Crowley, whatever his pedigree in the task of infiltrating secular organizations, has a great track record in infiltrating and taking over occult organizations: prior to joining the Golden Dawn he had a large number of degrees from other graded initiatory lodges, and he managed to take it over and re-make it to such a large extent that people often think he founded it). If a whole layer of the system is full of intelligence operatives, all levels below that layer can have their information controlled to some degree by that layer, and secrecy mechanisms that were for the purpose of guaranteeing safety when masonic systems were illegal (in many parts of Europe, particularly parts that were officially catholic, for a long period starting around the final quarter of the eighteenth century) from infiltrators working for the police would provide pseudonymity for higher-level infiltrators.

On top of this, a lodge is a bit like a country club -- if you join, you gain connections with a large number of rich white men, many of them with political or social power, and many of them with a sense of a strong bond to the community formed by the lodge's membership.

It's perfectly understandable that intelligence operatives would join occult lodges in specific, and be interested in the occult in general. How this changes their behavior in the intelligence world is maybe more interesting.

Edit:
This probably also explains the intelligence connection with the Church of Scientology, which also has a graded initiatory system with information hiding. Fun fact: Lafayette Hubbard's excuse for being in Jack Parson's chapter of the O:.G:.D:. was that he was spying on the thelemites for U.S. Naval Intelligence, which Naval Intelligence denies; the thelemic, masonic flavor of scientology is almost as undeniable as the naval flavor and the spy flavor, and I've read of businessmen explaining why they joined it giving precisely the same explanation I gave above for why intelligence agents might want to join a masonic lodge outside of an infiltration strategy: connections to rich and powerful people in the industry and in related industries.

On a different note, I'm wondering whether or not there's an intelligence overlap with the dramatis personae of the Satanic Ritual Abuse scare of the late 1980s and early 1990s, since there's certainly a subject matter overlap with abductees (the use of hypnosis in recovered memory therapy, traumatic sexual-religious situations, increasing absurdity of the type Vallee describes).

Taking a quick look, both Elizabeth Loftus (pioneer of false memory study, originator of both the car crash footage experiment and the Lost in the Mall implantation technique) and her ex-husband did graduate work at Stanford in the period 1966-1970, in the psychometrics department. This doesn't mean much; lots of people went to grad school at Stanford.

On the other side, Lawrence Pazder (author of Michelle Remembers) worked at a private practice in Victoria, BC, and researched his subject (while having an extramarital affair with her) from 1973 to 1979, sometimes disappearing with her for long periods of time during the period 1978-1979. Donald Cameron (who did MK-ULTRA's research into psychic driving) did his research out of a McGill University facility in Montreal, during the period 1957-1964. Same country, but wrong end of the continent and ten years off. Pazder was in Canada starting in 1964, and attended McGill, graduating in 1968; while Pazder and Cameron probably had mutual acquaintances, Pazder clearly was not involved in subproject 68. It is unclear when Cameron left McGill, so it's possible that the two met; Cameron died in 1967, and the MK-ULTRA project was not shut down until 1973, and not investigated until 1975. We don't know who or what was involved in the projects whose files were destroyed, but we can't support the idea that Pazder was a player of games with anything but circumstantial evidence.

Does anyone have anything more concrete than shared alma maters? The players in the McMartin Preschool Trial are depressingly underdocumented on Wikipedia -- the link for the shrink who reviewed the interview tapes points to an actor of the same name, and most of the other players have pages that merely reference their involvement with the trial.

reply to post by OkabeRintaro


On a different note, I'm wondering whether or not there's an intelligence overlap with the dramatis personae of the Satanic Ritual Abuse scare of the late 1980s and early 1990s, since there's certainly a subject matter overlap with abductees (the use of hypnosis in recovered memory therapy, traumatic sexual-religious situations, increasing absurdity of the type Vallee describes).

I suspect the link you are looking for there was the Evangelical Alliance meeting that took place in Canada in the early 80s. I have no wish to wander off track in a UFO forum however, this much I will say, as it might be of help to you in your search. As a consequence of that meeting the Evangelists became pro-active in the conspiracy field and sought to bend it to their own ends. The whole "Project Blue Beam" nonsense can be traced back to one of the Alliance's members in Canada. In short, the Alliance encouraged its' members to "infiltrate" in particular, the teaching and social work fields. Given, their members were behind the farcical Satanic accusations that occurred in Britain in the mid to late 80s, there's every chance the "money", that funded the whole Satanic Ritual abuse farce in the USA, was from Evangelical sources. .

reply to post by OkabeRintaro


John Whiteside Parsons lost his government funding for his research and was forced to leave the JPL , which he helped found, in part, because of his membership of The Golden Dawn.

Originally posted by FireMoon
reply to post by OkabeRintaro

 

John Whiteside Parsons lost his government funding for his research and was forced to leave the JPL , which he helped found, in part, because of his membership of The Golden Dawn.

Yes, the poor-lucked bloke! Have you ever read Parson's letters to Marjorie Cameron? They reveal a very interesting and surprisingly vulnerable fellow who--as you-know--stirred and surrounded himself in a literal maelstrom of natural and possibly preternatural energies and strangely powerful personages such as L. Ron, Aleister, Smith, & Marjorie just to name a few.

A true Alchemist keeping the old tradition of the mystical scientist. Fascinating. Maybe he and L. Ron really did rip open the door and let some "saucers" in?!!

I've just finished the entire 50+ pages of this thread and what a read.

I'd like to suggest an area touched upon (Danny Casolaro and the Octopus) may have far greater significance than has been accorded so far, particularly with regards to a fellow by the name of Michael Riconosciuto who seems to have his fingers in a large number of the pies discussed so far. I'm currently pressed for time so I'll just leave a link for now, but this guy (and his father) seems at the centre of so many interlocking conspiracies and important historical events of the 20th century, even being connected to the Kenneth Arnold UFO sitings, Fred Crisman and Maury Island, and the birth of the counter-culture in San Francisco.

ionamiller.wordpress.com...

www.deeppoliticsforum.com...

As for the second link, it takes a hard turn into cuckoo land (nothing to do with my user name), but some of the connections may be quite valid.

Investigate at your own peril, as the world may never look quite the same. Do a search on his name on ATS and see where the rabbithole takes you.

reply to post by cuckooold

Wow, thanks for your interest, reply, and links, cuckoold.

I'm somewhat aware of the interconnectedness you've mentioned. I stayed away from this subject, so far, for two reasons:

1. The complexity and wide-ranging pieces of that particular slice of the puzzle.

2. It still seems like a "hot" issue and I really wanted to cook some squab first & foremost.

Looks like I need to factor it in, however. Hopefully you will help us understand the twists and turns.

Funny that Iona Miller shows up in your links. I recently spent some time with her ex-husband Richard Alan Miller. A piece of work that one. He has MK subject written all over him. He certainly was in the right place at the right time around the right folk to have been a test subject.

Iona, like anyone, myself included, needs to be fact-checked, but overall she is a superior mind with a wealth of solid knowledge and experience with the occult arts and especially it's modern history.

Cover me, Cuck, I'm goin' in....

reply to post by The GUT


An interesting thing about Riconosciuto was that he appeared in the Haight Ashbury part of San Francisco at the 'right time' to be implicated/involved in certain counter-cultural doings. A brilliant chemist, he was said to have aided in the setting up of labs to produce a substance in high demand in SF, especially among the emerging hippie culture.

Factor that in with alleged CIA involvement in setting up these labs as part of MK-ULTRA, factor in Mr Riconosciuto's own connections, and the plot thickens, not necessarily in a utopian mind expanding way, but perhaps in a long term experiment of which perhaps is still occurring.

I've skimmed this thread for around an hour (the first twenty or so pages) and have to say I am very impressed with some of the information and theories brought forward here. I'm still extremely new to the site but like a lot of what I've been seeing so far.

Like someone else said much earlier, in my opinion after WW2 during the rebuild, it was an era during which we now know as The Cold War that changed everything. The ever growing need to out-smart and "beat" the Russians opened the door to agencies like OSS at the time to leap forward into the world of military intelligence and form up. I think over the years these agencies have become so invincible and super clandestine (especially from the exec) that there is no possible way of ever knowing for sure how the whole thing operates. I'm sure individuals are chosen for their ability to keep secrets over most anything else, as the primary goal here seems to be to make everyone not look or be forced to turn a blind eye. I think sixty years of non disclosure means these same people in control have still successfully fooled enough people for them to lose interest in the subject whatsoever, so why go against the grain now and change things when you are in power and it's running smoothly?

It amazes me how many people I ask about this subject either laugh or give me the third eye, not that I mind but simply because it dis-interests them THAT MUCH. The agencies have secretly controlled everything for years and to other agencies who are not involved or do not have clearance it has become sort of a learned behavior to just go along with everything and never ask questions. There simply must be a reason for this giant smoke screen, and I think it goes much deeper than we think.

Perhaps those "elite" few are in fact being manipulated somehow by the beings into not revealing anything? Maybe this entire subject is so left fielded and unorthodox that as humans we cannot even begin to understand (if we are meant to at all) even if it were told to us directly FROM the beings?

There is definitely something the agencies (I like to refrain from the phrase: "government") are benefiting from keeping a tight lid on everything, and I think this has something to do with the higher beings (or higher intelligence if you will) agenda. Their ultimate plan or objective may fail if there ever was full disclosure.

At any rate I appreciate not only for your time reading but also feedback.

There has been a little nagging voice at the back of this cuckoo's skull (interest piqued that my own online moniker is somehow conceptually 'related' to anything to do with the aviary) at the power of this website at promoting and reinforcing lot of UFO mythology, information, and disinformation. Whatever their roles, however high or low level as they may be, are people like John Lear (perhaps 'disappeared' to the much darker mirror of GLP and its Tavistock MK-ULTRA environment) here for the fun of it and their own ego gratification? ATS is a large site - where's Doty (or who is?), Bill Moore, Colonel Alexander, and so on? Is it not unreasonable to suspect that if they've been players in the extremely convoluted history and mystery of UFOology that some continue on this path (Vallee's agents of deception, perhaps its own double or triple agent, and I think Vallee walks with the good guys and may have picked up a few intel tricks of his own).

Dr Kit Green's involvement with ATS 'should' be read as highly suspicious if previous engagements are anything to go on, and it would not be unreasonable to question what is ATS (and GLP), and just how sophisticated are these players, and the machinery (Vallee's control mechanisms) they are at the helm of, or is just a feedback loop designed to stoke individual and collective paranoias? Could ARPANET be another extension of MK-ULTRA?

From Adamski's 'Space Brothers', isn't Spielberg's 'Close Encounters' just a slightly more sophisticated and believable projection? Is above-mentioned director's 'ET' follow up just a warm fuzzy version of CE of the 3rd Kind for kids? Are these concepts (nowadays referred to as 'memes) of significance, or is it just popular culture? If you're a believer that MK-ULTRA never ceased to operate, it's difficult to believe some of the pop culture icons have little to no significance.

I'm on the iPad, which is perhaps one of the worst designed interfaces ever for typing information (just whose ridiculous idea was it not to have arrow keys as a means of manipulating the cursor?), but there's a UFO related 'meme' I wish to discuss further, and before my browser crashes, so excuse me while I change mind control/tracking devices. There's a persistently recurring idea/meme that just about anyone interested in UFOology will encounter, and to my own small mind, far more compelling than the polluted waters of Roswell.

Grab your seat belts, as this ride will never be a smooth one, and better minds than my own have been ruined here.