Why Haven't You Enlisted?

Originally posted by Flyboy211
Interesting idea and Starship Troopers is a good story, although what of people with disabilities for instance? If they're incapable of joining up for active federal service, would they be denied rights?

He'd have rights, basic ones. But as for voting...they'd have him serve. Remember near the beginning of the book- the one-limbed recruiter? He was definitely disabled, but he served. Didn't stop him.

Personally, I like the idea too. Heinlein had it right- only somone who's served has any decent notions about war, and they should be only ones to make a final decision about if war is made.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx

Originally posted by Flyboy211
Interesting idea and Starship Troopers is a good story, although what of people with disabilities for instance? If they're incapable of joining up for active federal service, would they be denied rights?

He'd have rights, basic ones. But as for voting...they'd have him serve. Remember near the beginning of the book- the one-limbed recruiter? He was definitely disabled, but he served. Didn't stop him.

Personally, I like the idea too. Heinlein had it right- only somone who's served has any decent notions about war, and they should be only ones to make a final decision about if war is made.

DE

No i think his disability was a consequence of him joining up. Remember what he says to the trio when they sign up.."Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today!". I guess he was relegated to a desk job after the incident, although he sustained the impairment through injury while serving, meaning they couldn't take away his rights.

Although in the film not sure if he had lost both of his legs too, or maybe i'm confusing that with what happens to Rasczak in the film (and book?)

This is not a discussion of the works of Heinlein. Let us edeavor to remain on topic, por favor.

Excusé moi Monsieur Philpott

cuz Imma slacker.

Slacker: a person who shirts his work or duty
A person who evades military service in the wartime
Hehehehehe.. I know one thing man
I'm gonna have my kicks before the whole #house goes up in flame
Youknowhat'msayin? heheheheh..
Eat, drink, and be merry, tomorrow you may die
That's what life's about man, good times, noodle salad
Haha...

People seem to think that they have the right to live and be left alone. Dolts.

Originally posted by Flyboy211

Originally posted by DeusEx

Originally posted by Flyboy211
Interesting idea and Starship Troopers is a good story, although what of people with disabilities for instance?

He'd have rights, basic ones. But as for voting...they'd have him serve. Remember near the beginning of the book- the one-limbed recruiter? He was definitely disabled, but he served. Didn't stop him.

Personally, I like the idea too. Heinlein had it right- only somone who's served has any decent notions about war, and they should be only ones to make a final decision about if war is made.

No i think his disability was a consequence of him joining up. Remember what he says to the trio when they sign up.."Mobile Infantry made me the man I am today!".

A couple of points. One, the point of that scene was the irony of the "made me the man I am today" quote.

Two, the whole story (as portrayed on film) is a piece of irony.

The film is anti-war from beginning to end.

As the British Army training teams in Africa explain to their students: The military is subordinate to the elected civilian government. And for good reason.

Fact: No democracy with a free press has ever had a deadly famine.
Fact: When democracies go to war they do so with the consent of the governed. (Not always well-informed, but definitely their consent).
Fact: The South American nation with the highest HDI (human development index) is Costa Rica. Which has no defence force.
Fact: In the 20th Century 2 democracies began a war of conquest. Both lost.
Fact: Following the loss of a war of conquest and a change of regime, formerly autocratic nations generally prosper (to a larger or lesser extent).
Fact: There is only one successful conscript army on Earth. Israel's.
Fact: Every democracy with a volunteer army that was attacked eventually returned to its previous, peaceful, status (took Poland and Czeckoslovakia a while, though).
Fact: No war of conquest in the 20th century was ultimately successful. (I do not count the invasions of Tibet and East Turkestan to be wars, merely (illegal) conquests).

Given these facts, why would I volunteer to fight in Iraq when my country was not attacked by Iraq? Iraq, however, was attacked by my country. Why should I die for George W Bush's lack of planning.

(Tip for George:

The 5 Ps.

Proper
Planning
Prevents
Piss-Poor
Performance!

Maybe someone should have told him that a long time ago when he was attempting to trade oil the first time

Germany attacked Poland, Japan attacked the US, Hong Kong, Malaya...Argentina attacked GB. Saddam attacked the Ayatollah (and lost) and attacked Kuwait (and lost).

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Why haven't you enlisted?

What me enlist? Why would I do that considering the fact I already served over 8 years and was HONORABLY Discharged, Do dat count????

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
A couple of points. One, the point of that scene was the irony of the "made me the man I am today" quote.

Two, the whole story (as portrayed on film) is a piece of irony.

The film is anti-war from beginning to end.

Read the book, friend. The movie was a terrible send-up of what the book is actually about. In fact, the movie is terrible all-around.

As for your points, all that's needed for a vote is two years in any Federal service, doing anything from joining the MI to pulling KP on a supply cruiser. You cannot be rejected from Federal service for any reason. As for the relevance to the discussion- Starship Troopers is the only piece of scifi on the all the required reading list at four of the five US Military Academies, the only exception being the Coast Guard I believe. I know for sure that it is on the reading list of the USMC and the Army.

en.wikipedia.org...

It's a good book, and I have a copy of it SOMEWHERE...just can't find it. Grady, I'd seriously recommend you read it. It's about the military, more importantly, civic virtue as it relates to the military, which IS the point of this thread.

DE

Originally posted by DeusEx
Read the book, friend.

Did so a long time ago. Wasn't talking about the book, only the movie.

The movie was a terrible send-up of what the book is actually about. In fact, the movie is terrible all-around.

You say so...

Starship Troopers is the only piece of scifi on the all the required reading list at four of the five US Military Academies, the only exception being the Coast Guard I believe. I know for sure that it is on the reading list of the USMC and the Army.

Which is somewhat frightening in and of itself. I'd suggest Henry V would be a far better choice (as demonstrated by Lillo Brancato Jr, Gregory Hines and Danny DeVito).

It's a good book, and I have a copy of it SOMEWHERE...just can't find it.

Yes, it is and mine is in my bookshelf, just there across the room.

But it's a better film.

Which is somewhat frightening in and of itself. I'd suggest Henry V would be a far better choice (as demonstrated by Lillo Brancato Jr, Gregory Hines and Danny DeVito).

HenryV was a classic warrior King and Shakespeare's play portrays that vividly.

The Military in the US has paper shufflers for leaders for the most part. Though I must admit I did have a captain in Korea who was a real leader and would bend the rules for you if you gave him a hundred percent.

Originally posted by LordBaskettIV
The only way to change a system is from the inside.Stop moaning and get a job in the system for christ sake.

Thats not true. A system can be destroyed utterly from the outside, damaged irrepairably from the outside until it malfunctions and breaks down, it can be infiltrated from the outside, all kinds of things can happen. Even a non-violent sabotage of the system through urban organized protesting and blockading; shutting down areas of the capitol vital to the regime's function.

Some examples.. the Ukranian Revolution in 2004.. Orange Revolution

Another would be the Georgian Revolution of 2003..Rose Revolution

And another would be the Lebanese Revolution of 2005.Cedar Revolution

Then of course you have the countless amount of examples of systems that were overthrown violently through armed rebellion or liberation from the outside; The United States of America & The Republic of Ireland. And lastly an example of a system created, not destroyed, from the outside; Israel, The Soviet Union's Member Countries.

Back to the point of getting a job inside the system, by this rationale I'd have done excellent in High School, then I would've started Law School, which is too expensive for me my family even with aid by far, and which takes much longer than my patience can take. What is it.. 6yrs of college? 8?

Because if you weren't a lawyer it's extremely hard to become an elected politician. The majority of politicians elected in America were once lawyers. I'd imagine the same is true for European states. Same goes for Judges.

This one-way in favored system is crap. The only other ways in are former military service for quite some time with a rank before your name, and the odd elected official who's charisma and business-experience gets his foot in the door. These are the far minority.

I refuse to join that system because of the way I'd have to join it. I'd join it if it were different, but alas it is not. So I will remain outside of it, but this does not mean I theoreticly could have no part in changing it. That is a grave error to believe.

Cause,

"When I get to Heaven, St. Peter I'm gonna tell,

Another Marine reporting sir, I've served my time in Hell."



I went as a civilian, alas too old to reenlist.

Semper

I also figure two tours in Combat is enough for anyone...

[edit on 10/14/2006 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/14/2006 by semperfortis]

That is if you make it that far Semper. ...heaven that is.

Towards the end of my career as a cook I walked up to the bar one night and told the staff on duty and the customers present that I had decided to become a good Christian. When I was asked why...I told them that I had realized that if I didn't I was going to end up spending eternity with my co-workers.

I also told my boss, (who was a smaller than life character, for whom being useless was an improvement) on my last day that I would like to say that it had been a pleasure working with him... and when he started to say thank you, I added... but my mommy told me never to lie.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by grover]

I see your in a good mood today...

And by the way,,,

Didn't you know? All Marines go to Heaven...

We guard the streets..

Semper

Enlist for liberty?


Well i wouldn't join the army because their goal is not liberty at all and no matter what they will tell you, their goal is to control control control.


Fight a war to stop a war that was started by the people who wants to stop the war?


NO THANK YOU.


Peace over the army any day.

Originally posted by selfless
Peace over the army any day.

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

The army ensures liberty, not peaceniks. I leave Oct 28th for Basic.

DE

Don't be fooled by the rhetoric Semper.

As for the army, not the peaceniks being the ones to insure peace...don't be fooled by the rhetoric either... we all, military and "peaceniks", contribute to the fabric of this country both positively and negatively.

PS I actually did say those things semper.

[edit on 14-10-2006 by grover]

Originally posted by DeusEx

Originally posted by selfless
Peace over the army any day.

Si vis pacem, para bellum.

The army ensures liberty, not peaceniks. I leave Oct 28th for Basic.

DE

believe whatever you will.

Originally posted by DeusEx

The army ensures liberty, not peaceniks. I leave Oct 28th for Basic.

Good luck, DE and do your best to stay in touch.