Who is Jesus? Son of God or God?

Originally posted by ACTS 2:38
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Jesus is God in the flesh.

God whose name is Jesus had to fulfill the prophecy of the old testament.

It is hard for man to wrap the concept up in their finite minds, but you are three in one

you are a son or a daughter, you could be a mother or a father, you are a person.

all three can be used to describe you and yet you have a name that identifies just you.

It's not hard for me to wrap the concept up in my mind. I realized the OT and NT are talking about the same person. It's quite simple really.

John 5:37-47

37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38 nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41 “I do not accept glory from human beings, 42 but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44 How can you believe since you accept glory from one another but do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

So in John 5:37 Jesus is telling the pharisees that they hadn't seen nor heard God at any time (at that point). He then goes on to say that Moses wrote about him. Moses wrote the Torah and Moses wrote about God himself, the Savior. Well how could Moses be writing about Jesus when he was writing about God? Because Jesus is Yahweh thats how. It's easy and simple and goes completely over everyone's heads. So easy that children can understand it, yet adults in their jaded wisdoms miss this completely because it's so simple it slides across their minds and doesn't take root.

Luke 18:15-17

15 People were also bringing babies to Jesus for him to place his hands on them. When the disciples saw this, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called the children to him and said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17 Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.”

The heart of a child is the key, and through the eyes of a child shall you see.

reply to post by queenofangels_17

You will never understand the Holy Qur'an, lonewolf because of your hard heart, God has cursed you for being obstinate and for rejecting the Truth even if you recognize it as you would recognize your own son

There's nothing holy about a book written in lies and that condones lying. The very nature of your false prophet defies the Torah and that book along with him. That is all i need to know. The truth is staring you in the face and you're blind to it. I have wasted enough pearls on you.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Consumption of the Lamb (bread) and the wine (blood) was done at the last supper, before his crucifiction.

Bread is already a type of food, and it also is one of the things consumed at a Seder, and now you are making bread to also be the lamb. I don't think that would work out too good, to have a Seder, and when the guests ask where the lamb is, you just tell them the bread is also lamb. You are just making up some sort of fantasy mash-up.

This was a symbolism for the event about to unfold although today it should be done on Passover because the lamb and wine were consumed with bitter herbs on Passover.

None of this is described in the New Testament, where the crucifixion is playing out the Passover. There is no one-to-one correlation between the crucifixion and the celebration of the festival of Passover. Now obviously there was a correlation time-wise, where this was a very large gathering of Jews (for the festival) to witness the crucifixion event. Somewhere in the Gospels it describes Jesus as our Passover, but it is borrowing the imagery the Passover calls up, in order to convey a certain concept and we don't know for sure what that is exactly and could be something as simple as us identifying with Jesus as God's people, and it may not go further than that. Jesus'death does not interpret the Passover, it already having a specific interpretation which points back to the Exodus from Egypt.
There is no injunction in the NT to celebrate Passover, though the Church later adopted the Passover to mark the resurrection, which they came to call Easter, but it is celebrated in a Christian way and never as a Jewish Seder.
There is a mention along with the crucifixion story where the Romans left off breaking his legs, that this was in accordance with a saying that the bones should not be broken.

These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"
John 19:36

Because it has "his" the scripture is more likely Psalm 34:20

he protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken.

So we see the symbolism in the jewish Feast of Passover within the Last Supper. In the Last Supper we have the bread (Lamb) the wine (blood) and the sorrow (bitter herb) the disciples were to consume symbolized in like manner as Passover.

I see the symbolism between the Lord's Supper and subsequent interpretations of Christ's work and our relationship to him, but I don't see it as relating to a Passover Seder, or the Passover itself being some sort of prophecy regarding Jesus' death. I definitely see nothing to recommend a Passover Seder as anything Christians should be participating in.

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by queenofangels_17

Originally posted by adjensen

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
Jesus said, "If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder. But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders. Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty."

I hope you find the interpreation of this saying.

Why do you think quoting the Gnostic and non-canonical Gospel of Thomas is going to make headway with Christians? That passage is classic Gnostic dualism, the perfection of the spiritual and the evil nature of the material. Christ would never have said that.

That is exactly what he said... Jesus spoke in parables, but those with heavy hearts will never understand them until you spell it out to them.

If you believe only canonical gospels which Jesus never spoke, then you will never know nor will you have any idea of what the real Jesus said.

When you find the interpretation, maybe you will have an idea.

I know full well what it says, because I've studied the Gnostics a lot. Let me spell it out for you:

If the flesh came into being because of spirit, it is a wonder.

Evil flesh, coming into being through means of perfected spirit? That's wild!

But if spirit came into being because of the body, it is a wonder of wonders.

Perfect spirit, coming into being through evil flesh? That's just ridiculous!

Indeed, I am amazed at how this great wealth has made its home in this poverty.

It is amazing, indeed, that perfect spirit can be found residing in these corrupt material forms.

Those are all Gnostic views, completely contrary to Jewish and Christian beliefs, so, no, Jesus would never have said them.

Let us not forget corruption does not inherit incorruption.

1 Corinthians 15:50-58

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You are not even getting what i am saying so i'm just going to end it here, no point trying.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

YHVH is the Father and His Son is the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Whoa... hang on.

Ive heard another christian here say that Jesus is actually YHVH.
But you say YHVH and His son are 2 seperate entities?

Which one of you is wrong?

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

You will never understand the Holy Qur'an, lonewolf because of your hard heart, God has cursed you for being obstinate and for rejecting the Truth even if you recognize it as you would recognize your own son

There's nothing holy about a book written in lies and that condones lying. The very nature of your false prophet defies the Torah and that book along with him. That is all i need to know. The truth is staring you in the face and you're blind to it. I have wasted enough pearls on you.

Patience and mercy, little brother.

But for the grace of God, there go I. And I am perpetually humbled by the patience and mercy of our Lord, for His ways are above our ways, and He reveals His Truths in the timing He sees fit.

Only God can see the true intentions of the heart, thus only He can know when it is ripe for sowing His Word of Truth.
In our effort to be the Body of Christ, we are to live in the faith and anticipation that no matter how lost a lamb may seem, our Mighty God is fully capable of calling them home.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

YHVH is the Father and His Son is the Lord Jesus Christ of Nazareth.

Whoa... hang on.

Ive heard another christian here say that Jesus is actually YHVH.
But you say YHVH and His son are 2 seperate entities?

Which one of you is wrong?

And so is the Holy Spirit. In different areas and passages different persons of the Trinity are identified as YHVH. He is a trinune God.

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

That's what you want to believe, Notur... but that doesn't make it true.

2:15 Whoso is wont to think through envy that Allah will not give him (Muhammad) victory in the world and the Hereafter and is enraged at the thought of his victory, let him stretch a rope up to the roof of his dwelling, and let him hang himself. Then let him see whether his strategy dispelleth that whereat he rageth! -

Muhammad is in Hell and allah (Heylel) will join him at the judgment. Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.. that means Muhammad and Allah (Heylel). Muhammad was a lying, murdering pedophile.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

You are not even getting what i am saying so i'm just going to end it here, no point trying.

Are you just repeating a litany that is being given by Jews who are attending your church?
You know it may be important that they are not Christians.
There would be a reason for that.
I think you should consider that, and I would also suggest that you drop this idea that Jesus is the same person as some character in an Old Testament story. Your reasoning is very flawed but you insist on holding onto this idea you apparently picked up from another heretical church you used to attend. Jesus was not an angel going around murdering people and saying God sent him. Jesus is not like that, and if you are looking at a character in a vision of Revelation and you think it is Jesus doing these things literally, you are wrong about that too.
Jesus is the person in the Gospels so that is who he is, he does not just morph from one person to another.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

Ive heard another christian here say that Jesus is actually YHVH.
But you say YHVH and His son are 2 seperate entities?

Which one of you is wrong?

Both.
YHWH is a way to record a saying by the angel of Sinai that meant I Am.
Jesus said he was the I Am, but not the same person as in the OT, but the representative of God, where we had in the past angels, we have now a superior representative of God, His own son.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


ALLAH is Your Lord, Notur, whether you accept it or not, that doesn't change the fact.

Heylel is Satan, and the Holy Qur'an warned believers against him because he is an open enemy. If Allah is heylel why would he warn mankind about himself, a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. The truth is Allah is the Lord of us all.


7:27 O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that he might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

7:30 A party hath He led aright, while error hath just hold over (another) party, for lo! they choose the devils for protecting friends instead of Allah and deem that they are rightly guided.

8:48 And when Satan made their deeds seem fair to them and said: No one of mankind can conquer you this day, for I am your protector. But when the armies came in sight of one another, he took flight, saying: Lo! I am guiltless of you. Lo! I see that which ye see not. Lo! I fear Allah. And Allah is severe in punishment.

--- even Satan is afraid of Allah, because he knows that on the Day of Judgment there will be no escape from Him.

14:22 And Satan saith, when the matter hath been decided: Lo! Allah promised you a promise of truth; and I promised you, then failed you. And I had no power over you save that I called unto you and ye obeyed me. So blame me not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can ye help me. Lo! I disbelieved in that which ye before ascribed to me. Lo! for wrong-doers is a painful doom.

Satan called you to disbelieve in Allah, if you had been a true believer in God, Satan would not be able to do that.

15:39 Satan said: My Lord, Because Thou has sent me astray, I verily shall adorn the path of error for them in the earth, and shall mislead them every one.

15:40 Save such of them as are Thy perfectly devoted slaves.

15:41 He said: This is a right course incumbent upon Me:

15:42 Lo! as for My slaves, thou hast no power over any of them save such of the froward as follow thee

15:43 And lo! for all such, hell will be the promised place.

Hell is the promised placed for those who will follow Satan. As for those who will follow Allah and His Messengers, for them is Paradise.

26:221 Shall I inform you upon whom the devils descend? -
26:222 They descend on every sinful, false one.
26:223 They listen eagerly, but most of them are liars.

Notur, Jesus himself said that he is not worthy to untie the latchet of the shoes of the Prophet Muhammad and that God has given him three times of the glory that He has given to any of the prophets before him.

Jesus went into the wilderness beyond Jordan with his disciples, and when the midday prayer was done he sat down near to a palm-tree, and under the shadow of the palm-tree his disciples sat down. Then Jesus said: 'So secret is predestination, O brethren, that I say to you, truly, only to one man shall it be clearly known. He it is whom the nations look for, to whom the secrets of God are so clear that, when he comes into the world, blessed shall they be that shall listen to his words, because God shall overshadow them with his mercy even as this palm-tree overshadows us. Yes, even as this tree protects us from the burning heat of the sun, even so the mercy of God will protect from Satan them that believe in that man.'

The disciples answered, "O Master, who shall that man be of whom you speak, who shall come into the world?" Jesus answered with joy of heart: 'He isMuhammad;, Messenger of God, and when he comes into the world, even as the rain makes the earth to bear fruit when for a long time it has not rained, even so shall he be occasion of good works among men, through the abundant mercy which he shall bring. For he is a white cloud full of the mercy of God, which mercy God shall sprinkle upon the faithful like rain.'


21:107We sent thee not (Muhammad), save as a mercy for the peoples.

reply to post by queenofangels_17


Jesus said you shall know men by their fruit. What does that say about a man that not only lies, but encourages others to lie? That murders and encourages others to murder? Or than seduces and has sex with children? Allah is NOT my lord and after he bows his knee and confesses that Christ is Lord he will be cast into the lake of fire. I spit on Allah.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Do you have any idea how confusing that is? I think they deliberately made it confusing so that no one would realize the truth...

Originally posted by AfterInfinity
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Do you have any idea how confusing that is? I think they deliberately made it confusing so that no one would realize the truth...

lmao...no, not that, Sugar.
Confusing, yes, but I believe it is because we, as finite beings, are incapable of understanding infinite concepts. In addition to our incapability to fully understand the plurality of a singular infinite concept.
And that, in addition to our limited capabilities in all things otherwise, that are not composed of what we know and understand.

For instance, a vase could not possibly understand the flesh that makes up its creator, the potter, versus the clay that makes up the vase, itself.
It can only understand clay.
But it can not understand alternate manifestations or compositions of clay.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by queenofangels_17

 

You will never understand the Holy Qur'an, lonewolf because of your hard heart, God has cursed you for being obstinate and for rejecting the Truth even if you recognize it as you would recognize your own son

There's nothing holy about a book written in lies and that condones lying. The very nature of your false prophet defies the Torah and that book along with him. That is all i need to know. The truth is staring you in the face and you're blind to it. I have wasted enough pearls on you.

The Holy Qur'an does not lie, lonewolf, and does not condone lying. The Prophet Muhammad confirms the Torah and the Psalms and the Gospel. The books you have been reading has been contaminated by lies, that's why you can't recognize the truth, since you have accepted the lies you have read before as truth.

5:48 And unto thee have We revealed the Scripture with the truth, confirming whatever Scripture was before it, and a watcher over it. So judge between them by that which Allah hath revealed, and follow not their desires away from the truth which hath come unto thee. For each We have appointed a divine law and a traced out way. Had Allah willed He could have made you one community. But that He may try you by that which He hath given you (He hath made you as ye are). So vie one with another in good works. Unto Allah ye will all return, and He will then inform you of that wherein ye differ.

The Holy Qur'an is a WATCHER over all the other Scriptures, because it contains only the Truth, the Truth of the Torah, the Truth of the Book of Abraham, the Truth of the Psalms, and the Truth of the Gospel of Jesus. Whatever deviates from what is written in the Qur'an is therefore a falsehood.

Tell me what lies you think is written in the Holy Qur'an and if God wills I will make it clear for you.

If you want to know what is written in the Torah, not the ones that the rabbis show in their parchment, but what they hide, then let me know.

You are so concerned over the Torah but did you know that when the Children of Israel asked Moses for proof about the prophethood of the Prophet Muhammad and he showed them a clear proof from God, they were aversed, and they changed the words that was revealed to them with another and said that it was from God!

2:79Therefore woe be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands and then say, "This is from Allah," that they may purchase a small gain therewith. Woe unto them for that their hands have written, and woe unto them for that they earn thereby. -

2:120And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah (Himself) is Guidance. And if thou shouldst follow their desires after the knowledge which hath come unto thee, then wouldst thou have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper.

23:71 And if the truth had followed their desires, verily the heavens and the earth and whosoever is therein had been corrupted. Nay, We have brought them their Reminder, but from their Reminder they now turn away.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


6:57 Say: I am relying on clear proof from my Lord, while ye deny Him. I have not that for which ye are impatient. The decision is for Allah only. He telleth the truth and He is the Best of Deciders.

Wait then, I'm also waiting with you!

6:39 Those who deny our revelations are deaf and dumb in darkness. Whom Allah will He sendeth astray, and whom He will He placeth on a straight path.

reply to post by queenofangels_17


Al-Taqiyya. Muhammad is a liar, and encourages others to lie. He's a pedo, and encourages others to murder. (Hadith 9:4)

"Ye shall know them by their fruit."

Originally posted by queenofangels_17
The disciples answered, "O Master, who shall that man be of whom you speak, who shall come into the world?" Jesus answered with joy of heart: 'He isMuhammad;, Messenger of God, and when he comes into the world, even as the rain makes the earth to bear fruit when for a long time it has not rained, even so shall he be occasion of good works among men, through the abundant mercy which he shall bring. For he is a white cloud full of the mercy of God, which mercy God shall sprinkle upon the faithful like rain.'

Hate to break it to you, pal, but the Gospel of Barnabas is a 15th Century forgery. It rewrites the story of Jesus to serve the purposes of Islam, so it should come as no shock that it was written AFTER the creation of Islam.

It is a lie, so if you persist in promoting it, you are promoting a lie, and I thought you said that was against Islam?

Here's a refutation of it: Why have Christians hidden the 'Gospel of Barnabas'

More here: The Gospel of Barnabas

From the conclusion of that site:

We have shown that the history and authenticity that Muslims attribute to the Gospel of Barnabas hold no credibility. Evidence from history, and from the document itself, show that it could have been written no earlier than the fourteenth century. The writer of the gospel could not have been the Barnabas of the New Testament. It is full of errors and contradictions and much of it is in conflict with Islam and the beliefs of the Ahmadiyya movement.

This gospel of Barnabas is a prime example of what happens when a spurious work is subjected to critical review. When all the errors and inconsistencies are considered, this gospel is exposed as a product of a ‘Pseudo-Barnabas’ who was never a first-century disciple of Jesus nor been in the land where Jesus walked and taught.

So, which is more important to you, as a Muslim? Telling the truth? Or lying in a vain attempt to convince Christians that Christ "foresaw" Mohammed?

reply to post by AfterInfinity

Do you have any idea how confusing that is?

No, and I am taking you as meaning what I said was confusing, on its own it would not be, but a person could find themselves in a state of confusion brought on by having learned some inaccurate version of the explanation.

I think they deliberately made it confusing so that no one would realize the truth...

You mean the New Testament writers? It may be that they had a broad audience so wanted a version that could be acceptable to the most people, so toned down the rhetoric so Jews were not put off right away. Some people may have been shocked to find out that who they took to be God was actually angels representing God.