Is The S-37 Fighter Up There With The F-22 ?!?!

Originally posted by waynos
But what is the practical point of a high, or even unlimited, AoA? It has no practical purpose other than to show off the capabilities of the

Sure it does. it looks great at airshows and is a awesum tool for convincing third world countries to spend money they can ill afford on useless combat capabilities.

Pugachev's cobra............LMAO yeah ok. The F-16 ( GENERAL DYNAMICS not Lockheed ). CG is so off it can't fly without computers. Fun manuever to watch. The F-16 can do it all day long. The Fighting Falcon can SUSTAIN a 9 G turn. Cobra LOL..... Remember the Mig29 was the response to the F-16 . No usefull reason to use this manuever *cobra* other than to thrill the crowd. The SU-37 can do a flip. So what?? It would get shot down by a Cessna Birddog before it finishes. Watch Sean Tucker do his stuff. You will see what a plane can do. Every Air Force can point out its hero pilots. The best of the best. The Sierra Hotel jock of the day. I do believe that the era of the close dog fight has come close to an end. BVR. Shoot first ask later. Shoot em before they even know you are there. BUT, Fighter Pilots to this day INSIST on a gun. Missile or no missile. Its the mentality it takes to do that job. I have a lot of dead friends, especially from the early F-16. Call it the Great Santini syndrom. Who's the best pilot ya ever saw??? Yer lookin at him.

High AOA is good for landing. Slow down. Slip to the runway. Sean Tuckers Oracle Challenger can sustain a 90 degree AOA just about hovering almost indefinately. Now what in the world would you use that for in a dog fight??? To *hang* around and get shot down? Energy, altitude and situational awareness. Not some trick for an airshow.

Remember, no matter what kind of flying you do, three things dont matter.

1. Altitude above you.
2. Runway behind you.
3. Half a second ago.

So go ahead and use air show antics in a fight. Your half a second will be spent trying to figure out how to kiss yer butt good bye.

I wholeheartedly agree that the Cobra is an airshow maneuver that is extremely impressive in terms of demonstrating aerodynamics, engine flexibility and extremes of the flight envelope.

It is, however, one of the surest ways to get dead in air combat.

BTW, Dima We've heard you rant and rave about Russian hardware in
several message threads for some time now. Where does your
"categorical opinion" come from. How much time in what types of
aircraft do you have? What is your experience to be a credible source
of information. Oh, you read it where....?





[edit on 11/28/2004 by just_a_pilot]

i use gogle, and any sites i see, try to remember them so that when i argue wit the yanks at my school, i already have them in my head, but i took a month long hiatis(if thats how u spell it) and my knowledge and grasp on what has been happening has slipped quite a lot, so i have joined 3 forums, to rearn what i forgot

oh, and pugachev's cobra, its not really a move that you would use in combta, its just to show you that the plane is extremely highly maneuverable, an F-16 can pull 9 G's constantly, yo, haven't u looked at other aircraft recently, all modern aircraft can do that buddy, lol

pugachev's cobra is only useful in arena's, but it also shows how maneuverable the aircraft is, so it does kinda matter, because if u can outmaneuver an enemy aircraft, he'll have a very hard time locking on to u

Since you guys and gals are on the subject, maybe this will be of interest?
The Truth about the Cobra Maneuver






seekerof

Originally posted by Dima
an F-16 can pull 9 G's constantly, yo, haven't u looked at other aircraft recently, all modern aircraft can do that buddy, lol

I think you misunderstood. Currently there are 2 aircraft in the world that can SUSTAIN a 9 g turn. The F-16 and the F-22. Never said anything about a quick 9 g burst.

yo, if Su-27 and their variants as well as the MiG-29 i believe can do a cobra, then they can do a 9G turn, the cobra maneuver was once measured at 15G's

yea, well, cobra maneuver, u say that they have no armament and very little fuel, well, all aircraft do tricks like that, well tricks that put a lot of stress on the airframe anywyas, and let me see an american aircraft do a full cobra

There is a huge difference in quick high G bursts and sustained + or - high G flight. When the first block of F-16's came to Hill AFB it took quite a bit of getting used to. A big problem was feeling like your butt is in the wind because of sitting high in the cockpit for a full field of vision, the stick did not even budge ( GD changed it to move at pilots requests ) and the seat is reclined. Centrefuge training increased. Grunt, squeeze. Go to the gym, work the legs not the upper body. Fight it.........don't black out. A lot of pilots died in the first operational squadrons. The plane was tougher than the body. The cobra. BFD. all show no go. Really kind of started as a sales point. Boeing started the flash when although ORDERED not to, Tex Johnson rolled a 707 at a fly by for prospective buyers. It worked.

Originally posted by Dima
yea, well, cobra maneuver, u say that they have no armament and very little fuel, well, all aircraft do tricks like that, well tricks that put a lot of stress on the airframe anywyas, and let me see an american aircraft do a full cobra

Cobra manuevre? How 'bout I fire my AMRAAM missile at you in your Su-37 and while you try to figure out where it's coming from you might want to find the ejection button.(which you are much more likely to find)

Originally posted by Frosty

Cobra manuevre? How 'bout I fire my AMRAAM missile at you in your Su-37 and while you try to figure out where it's coming from you might want to find the ejection button.(which you are much more likely to find)

yeah an AMRAAM at 50 less metres? sure like thats gona work.
also the F22 can be picked up.

Originally posted by devilwasp
[yeah an AMRAAM at 50 less metres? sure like thats gona work.
also the F22 can be picked up.

Yes, but at a distance and well after a Raptor could get off a BVR shot. Im not sure where the 50 meters is from as the missile have a minimum range as well.

I think the whole point is if the Raptors are engaged in a dogfight something has gone seriously wrong with the mission or tactics. They should be hitting them at BVR.

Originally posted by FredT


Yes, but at a distance and well after a Raptor could get off a BVR shot. Im not sure where the 50 meters is from as the missile have a minimum range as well.

yeah but are you going to use that missile to take down a jet at 50 metres?
well your not going to do a cobra manovour to engage a target @ 2 miles now are you?

I think the whole point is if the Raptors are engaged in a dogfight something has gone seriously wrong with the mission or tactics. They should be hitting them at BVR.

yeah thats what is confusing.
the boys upstairs want a dogfighter but the boys in the sky want an interceptor.
thats why i prefer the YF23 its bigger and would have engaed targets at a longer range.

Originally posted by devilwasp
yeah but are you going to use that missile to take down a jet at 50 metres?
well your not going to do a cobra manovour to engage a target @ 2 miles now are you?

I think you missed the point I was making. I agree with you. And at 50 meters ya had best use the Vulcan.

thats why i prefer the YF23 its bigger and would have engaed targets at a longer range.

Im with you there. Have you been following the YF-23 thread? The PAV-1 is not at the USAF test flight museum and the one that was at the Western Museum of Flight in SoCal is on loan to Northrup for refurbishment according to the website. Coincidence? I think not.

ANd hands down the Black Widow II was the best looking plane I have ever seen.

the f22 can shoot down as many russian aircraft of any model *as many missles as it can carry*

the f22 is by far the most capable jet at the moment

actually i think the only 2 jets that come close arent even Russian! LOL
anyways the Russians are poor as heck how could they afford anything cool .....
Russian jets are just crap nowdays
In 1980 russia was "Cutting Edge"
Today Russia is far behind the other big nations in regaurds to jet technology

the Eurofighter could cream that Su37 im pretty sure
and that French jet the Dassault Rafale probably could cream any russian jet too

basically French and Euro designs best the Russians
And american designs best the Euros

so the f22 can beat anything times 20
the euros can beat anything else
and the russians or chinese end up at the end of the pack sadly

its because they spent all their $ on their submarine fleets and their tank armadas

Russia can easily win a tank war by pure numbers
but they wont win a air war

Russia = good tanks good submarines
Euro = good jets/great helicopters / good navy
China = massive numbers/ poor navy
America = awesome jets/ decent helicopters/ decent tanks/ awesome navy

as you can see everyone has strengths /weaknesses

Americas military is mainly designed to keep Asia/Euro away from North America "Good jets + Navy" keeps the enemy away this includes the dozens of carrier or amphibious strike groups

Euro has to balance their forces because their conflicts can occur in their own backyard

russia seems to focus mainly on their sub fleets *which are impressive* and their massive unstoppable tank armadas *a nuke might stop them however*

chinas got the upperhand in hand to hand ground conflicts
the longer it lasts the better chance china has
they will never run out of soldiers for that
but their navy/air force seems to lack technologically and numerically

so china is a big hitter , but comes in the back of the pack

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Frosty

Cobra manuevre? How 'bout I fire my AMRAAM missile at you in your Su-37 and while you try to figure out where it's coming from you might want to find the ejection button.(which you are much more likely to find)

yeah an AMRAAM at 50 less metres? sure like thats gona work.
also the F22 can be picked up.

WTF!!!!
Why would the US military equip its planes with missiles that go only 50 meters? By the time you shoot it you are going at about 400-800 mph, that missile would blow up in YOUR FACE.
Read up on your weapons technology. www.wpafb.af.mil...
www.fas.org...

Originally posted by FredT

Im with you there. Have you been following the YF-23 thread? The PAV-1 is not at the USAF test flight museum and the one that was at the Western Museum of Flight in SoCal is on loan to Northrup for refurbishment according to the website.

Coincidence? I think not.

ANd hands down the Black Widow II was the best looking plane I have ever seen.

YES another BW2 supporter!
yeah i have been following , interesting.
hmmm that is a bit......dodgy to say the least.

Originally posted by Frosty


WTF!!!!

Why would the US military equip its planes with missiles that go only 50 meters?

By the time you shoot it you are going at about 400-800 mph, that missile would blow up in YOUR FACE.

Read up on your weapons technology.

the US military would equip them to fire over 20 miles.
also i see you misunderstanding.
the point i was makeing was that at 50 metres , my estimate, you wouldnt use a missile. unless you like flying through fire balls and debris?
BTW most missiles travel at mach 5 i believe so dont worry, also the missile would go at the same speed as the plane then go faster than the plane.
why dont you read up on physics.

Originally posted by muzzleflash

Russia = good tanks good submarines
Euro = good jets/great helicopters / good navy
China = massive numbers/ poor navy
America = awesome jets/ decent helicopters/ decent tanks/ awesome navy

as you can see everyone has strengths /weaknesses

excuse me America only has GOOd tanks?

The M1A2 is the ultimate tank. It is extremely heavy, well armored, very fast (needs a governor), and heavy hitting. It is near the peak if not at the peak of tank design. Also helicopters are much more than decent, the Apache can shoot down regular aircraft and descimates enemy tank columns.

Originally posted by roniii259


excuse me America only has GOOd tanks?

The M1A2 is the ultimate tank. It is extremely heavy, well armored, very fast (needs a governor), and heavy hitting. It is near the peak if not at the peak of tank design. Also helicopters are much more than decent, the Apache can shoot down regular aircraft and descimates enemy tank columns.

well it is only got B class armour.
there are faster tanks.
there are heavier hitting tanks.
and cheaper too.
the apache has competitors aka the KA-50

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by Frosty


WTF!!!!

Why would the US military equip its planes with missiles that go only 50 meters?

By the time you shoot it you are going at about 400-800 mph, that missile would blow up in YOUR FACE.

Read up on your weapons technology.

the US military would equip them to fire over 20 miles.
also i see you misunderstanding.
the point i was makeing was that at 50 metres , my estimate, you wouldnt use a missile. unless you like flying through fire balls and debris?
BTW most missiles travel at mach 5 i believe so dont worry, also the missile would go at the same speed as the plane then go faster than the plane.
why dont you read up on physics.

Yes you are correct, I just did not understand where you were comming from. But still, if it goes only 150 feet and my craft is traveling at about 800 feet per second, that missile would blow up right in front of me. And the point I am making is I will never be 50 meters from you. The conflict will never arise. I will simply fire my AMRAAM at about 6 miles away make a slight bank to the left and go on to my next target.