Is The S-37 Fighter Up There With The F-22 ?!?!

Is S-37 larger than F-22? Personally I think for fighters, too large is not a good thing.

[edit on 2-12-2004 by twchang]

Originally posted by Frosty

Originally posted by Dima
another example of american propagandism, of course those pilots aren't going to say that they saw it clearly, so to add publicity, they say they didn't see it at all until it came right overhead them, lol

OR maybe this is why they call it stealth.

Noooooooo! It couldn't be!!!! It doesn't fit Dima's American propaganda theory

Dima, son, I hate to break this too you. The Raptor is that stealthy. Not everything is American propaganda and hype! In fact, if you look through out the cold war, it was the EXACT OPPOSITE! The US would get Russian defectors (ie - Russias own state of the art planes) and they would be INFERIOR to their claims. Just like they inflated the numbers of tanks and soldiers and everything else they had.

So please, stop it with this campiegn you have against America - there is no reason for it. America has the best planes RIGHT NOW. If Russia had the money, they could build a rival. They don't so they can't. It's not a knock on Russia, or their technology - they simply don't have the money for it. Even the brightest minds need to have money and resources at their disposal. The US has by far the most. Russia is not even close at this point in time.

In fact, you should take it as a compliment that Russia is in fact so close, while working at such a disadvantage

Mad man i thought the F15's there where not the latest models and had not had the latest radar upgrades. is this true or am i mixing it up the india thing?

In case this hasn't been posted here, here is the interview with the SecAF on the Eagle vs. Raptor IOT&E test. It doesn't give specifics on the version of the F-15 or the radar, but it describes the 5-1 odds.

www.af.mil...

Here is another article on IOT&E tests with a few more excersizes:

www.afa.org...

And here is a writeup on the ECM/EW capabilities:

www.strategypage.com...

Nothing super secret, but it gives a hint to some of the capabilities, and talks about possible future systems.

Originally posted by devilwasp
Mad man i thought the F15's there where not the latest models and had not had the latest radar upgrades. is this true or am i mixing it up the india thing?

Thats the India exercise (I assume, because Ihaven't hear or read anything that says the Eagles vs the raptor were low grade).

It wouldn't make sense to use lesser radar when you are doing operational test evalutaions for an aircraft that is supposed to be your countries 1st line of defense. Theres always the possability obviously, but I seriously doubt it.

From one of the links Engineer posted:

�We had five F-15 Eagles against one Raptor,� he said. �The engagement was over in three minutes. None of the F-15s even saw the Raptor. The Raptor simply went down the line and, in simulation, took out all five of the F-15s.�

One reporter asked if the simulations were fair, since the F/A-22 pilots had previously flown the F-15.

�They never get into dogfights, so it makes no difference,� Secretary Roche said. �The fact that (the Raptor) flies very high, very stealthy and at (Mach 1.6) without afterburner makes it very tough for anybody else to have a fire control solution. The F-15s, with very good radars, were not able to pick up and understand where the F/A-22s were, and the F/A-22 was looking at the F-15s all the time.�

link

The part about the F-15's having "very good radars" tells me that they weren't downgraded.

I posted all of that because I found a few things very interesting.

Firstly, that the supercruise ability of the Raptor was revealed to be Mach 1.6+! That is pretty revolutionary if you think about it. The last generation of fighter aircraft in the world could not achieve the speed of sound without afterburnerers, yet this aircraft does AT LEAST Mach 1.6 in cruise. Not too shaby eh?

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know at what speed the Typhoon is supposed to supercruise at? Not trying to start a "mine is better then yours" war over this - I just think it would be intresting to compare thrust to wieght ratios of the 2 air craft with their stated supercruise ability. Perhaps it would tell us something?

The other part that is interesting is that he included that the aircraft flew "very high". Using deductive reasoning, I am going to assume that is in relation to the F-15's. Now, considering that F-15's have achieved altitudes of 100,000 feet (granted, in vertical clime and not achieved for very long), I would bet that the operational altitude of the Raptor is significantly greater then that of the Eagle.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know at what speed the Typhoon is supposed to supercruise at? Not trying to start a "mine is better then yours" war over this - I just think it would be intresting to compare thrust to wieght ratios of the 2 air craft with their stated supercruise ability. Perhaps it would tell us something?

duno im looking it up now.....its top speed is mach 2.
wait its cruiseing speed is mach 1.3

The other part that is interesting is that he included that the aircraft flew "very high". Using deductive reasoning, I am going to assume that is in relation to the F-15's. Now, considering that F-15's have achieved altitudes of 100,000 feet (granted, in vertical clime and not achieved for very long), I would bet that the operational altitude of the Raptor is significantly greater then that of the Eagle.

yeah i suppose it would have to be unless mabye he was only like a metre of 2 higher than the f15's or the f15s where flying low.

Blackout, stay tuned to current global economic trends, rusia's economy is skyrocketing, they have resumed the MiG 1.44/1.42 project, the Su-47 is up for purchasing and theire developing AYAKS, in addition with another 3 or 4 hypersonic planes, so, don't tell me that the russian aviation insudtry is dead, russia will have a counter way before 2020, probably around 2007/2008-2010

it seems that russian planes aren't so crappy as everyone thinks, look at the India thing, okay, i know it been debated hundreds of times before, the thing is that, u're planes didn't lose 2 to 1, they lost 9 to 1, now, u can give me as many excuses as u want, but i don't know how it would turn around those incredible odds, so i'm gunna filter some through

okay, u guys say the AMRAAM had only 1/3 its normal range, so, we'll minus it be 2, now its 7/1, it was india's best pilots against normal american pilots, minus 1, 6/1, not new radar installed(AESA) minus 1. no 2, i'll be generous, 4/1, and then watever other excuses you have, minus 2, so, in the end, it is a 2/1 battle in favour of the Sukhoi, plus, the Sukhoi's weren't fully upgraded, only half of the requred, no, requested technology is installed in them so far, in 2006 they will be complete, so plus 2, in the end, it turns out to be a 4/1 favour for the Sukhois, plus, they cost about $10 to $15 million cheaper, i know hu i would choose, so think about it when u think that russia has crappy fighters, and the Su-37/Su-35 is even better, plus the brand new Su-35BM

Originally posted by Dima
Blackout, stay tuned to current global economic trends, rusia's economy is skyrocketing, they have resumed the MiG 1.44/1.42 project, the Su-47 is up for purchasing and theire developing AYAKS, in addition with another 3 or 4 hypersonic planes, so, don't tell me that the russian aviation insudtry is dead, russia will have a counter way before 2020, probably around 2007/2008-2010

Dima, while you are correct in saying that Rusias economy is growing, I think you should also understand that compared to the US it is growing slowly.

The Mig 1.44 has some promise, but I think it is more realistic to think of that fighter as a rival to the Typhoon, not the Raptor.

To say they will have a counter by 2010 is just plain wrong. It takes about 15-20 years for an aircraft to be developed. Nothing they have on the table now can compete with the Raptor, so you are looking at 2020 at the earliest. By that time, the US will have ceased production on the Raptor and will be moving to unmanned fighters.

Originally posted by Dima
it seems that russian planes aren't so crappy as everyone thinks, look at the India thing, okay, i know it been debated hundreds of times before, the thing is that, u're planes didn't lose 2 to 1, they lost 9 to 1, now, u can give me as many excuses as u want, but i don't know how it would turn around those incredible odds, so i'm gunna filter some through

okay, u guys say the AMRAAM had only 1/3 its normal range, so, we'll minus it be 2, now its 7/1, it was india's best pilots against normal american pilots, minus 1, 6/1, not new radar installed(AESA) minus 1. no 2, i'll be generous, 4/1, and then watever other excuses you have, minus 2, so, in the end, it is a 2/1 battle in favour of the Sukhoi, plus, the Sukhoi's weren't fully upgraded, only half of the requred, no, requested technology is installed in them so far, in 2006 they will be complete, so plus 2, in the end, it turns out to be a 4/1 favour for the Sukhois, plus, they cost about $10 to $15 million cheaper, i know hu i would choose, so think about it when u think that russia has crappy fighters, and the Su-37/Su-35 is even better, plus the brand new Su-35BM

Unfortunatly for you Dima, it is not as simple as you make it out. If you were to put our frontline fighters vs their frontline fighters with no limitations, it just wouldn't be close - it's as simple as that. Take away all the ristrictions and advantages, the US wins hands down.

Originally posted by diefaster
The US has a history of "reacting" to Russian technology, as opposed to being on the cutting edge. The F/A 22 is no different.

One of the great selling points is its directional thrust. Its nozzles can be directed by the Automatic Flight Control System 30 degrees up or down.

Now compare this to the S-37. The Su-37 has 360 degree nozzle position. This, combined with its forward canards make it very very agile. I have seen video of the Su-37 at almost 0 airspeed pointing straight up. This would make other fighters stall immediately, even the F-22.

I can't really agree with you about the reacting thing. US military aircraft have been the most sophisticated and capable in the world for the last 40 years. While the Su-37 is the most sophisticated fighter ever to come out of Russia or the old USSR and it may be faster on full afterburner in a clean configuration (no external ordinance), it isn't going to take down a raptor any time soon. Marketing tricks like tail hovering and extreme slow flight aren't going to do it a whole lot of good going up against an F-22. The extra degree of freedom on the thrust vectoring does give the Su-37 more flexibility for cranking the nose around but it is most useful for close in knife fighting. The Raptor is technologically superior and can knock it down before the Su-37 even knows that it is in trouble. IF the F-22 pilot did get into trouble, he can accelerate away and maintain Mach I+ speeds for extended time periods while the Su-37 would run out of fuel in a few minutes trying to catch up on afterburner. "Speed is Life"

Originally posted by Dima
oh, i'm very sorry, in the last post, i said that the F-22 lost, but they won, sorry lol

and by the way, um, i heard a F-22 will cost around 100 million +, compared to the approximate cost of a S-37/Su-47, which will cost around 40-50 million each, so, it should be a 2 on 1

You forgot to think about the equation:

2 Su-37's + 1 F-22 = $100 million in lost Russian equipment and an American pilot back at the Officers club in time for a beer.

Originally posted by CaptAvatar


You forgot to think about the equation:

2 Su-37's + 1 F-22 = $100 million in lost Russian equipment and an American pilot back at the Officers club in time for a beer.

thats if he hits the right target................

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by CaptAvatar


You forgot to think about the equation:

2 Su-37's + 1 F-22 = $100 million in lost Russian equipment and an American pilot back at the Officers club in time for a beer.

thats if he hits the right target................

What are you trying to imply? That he'd shoot himslef with a missle? Stop trying to take cheap shots at the US man. Theres no reason to.

Originally posted by American Mad Man

Originally posted by devilwasp

Originally posted by CaptAvatar


You forgot to think about the equation:

2 Su-37's + 1 F-22 = $100 million in lost Russian equipment and an American pilot back at the Officers club in time for a beer.

thats if he hits the right target................

What are you trying to imply? That he'd shoot himslef with a missle? Stop trying to take cheap shots at the US man. Theres no reason to.

no offence meant madman, but just 4 words, " Practise before yo preach"

Exactly what cheapshots have I taken at the UK?

I defy you to give me a single one.

Russia will have new fighters which will be able to counter and outperform the US fighters such as F/A-22 and F-35 by 2012-2013.
MiG 1.44 will be ready for sale to Russian Air Force by 2008. Su-47 will be offered to other countries. Sukhoi PAK-FA will be ready by 2010 for sale. AYAKS is approaching too.

And F/A-22 isn't such a good fighter it is told to be. It's like saying that MiG-19 can go Mach 7

Originally posted by American Mad Man


What are you trying to imply? That he'd shoot himslef with a missle? Stop trying to take cheap shots at the US man. Theres no reason to.

I was jokeing. sorry for that BTW it was a pretty low cheap shot. on me
i have figure out one sitution wich would cause the f22 to get into a dog fight: EVERY missile gets a fault.

[edit on 4-12-2004 by devilwasp]

Originally posted by khruschev
Russia will have new fighters which will be able to counter and outperform the US fighters such as F/A-22 and F-35 by 2012-2013.
MiG 1.44 will be ready for sale to Russian Air Force by 2008. Su-47 will be offered to other countries. Sukhoi PAK-FA will be ready by 2010 for sale. AYAKS is approaching too.

And F/A-22 isn't such a good fighter it is told to be. It's like saying that MiG-19 can go Mach 7

You are baiting right?

None of the fighters you mentioned - not the Mig, not the Sukhoi, and CERTAINLY not the Pak-fa will be a threat to the Raptor.

The F/A-22 is BY FAR the best fighter in the world, and will be for at least 15 more years.