Is The S-37 Fighter Up There With The F-22 ?!?!

Currently, Raptor costs $258,000,000 apiece, too much.. Pentagon wants 277 of this birds, this fighter developed for 23 years. ok..

It's seems that su-47(s-37) won't go into production, and will be replaced by PAK FA, but let's see what we have now:

su30mki seems that it's very cost-effective fighter, exercises shows that F-15C lost 9 to 1. Oh, i forgot, you think that F-15E is better based on it's radar and not restricted AIM120 range, but even upgraded it can't be compared with su30 radar, also russian missiles technically more advanced. And don't forget that su30mki is version for export with lowered capabilities.

It already seems that su30 is capable to kill Raptor. Raptor designed to be stealthy and detect enemy fighters before they detect him. First of all Raptor almost invisible for radars created in 60'es, so you can bomb third world countries and maybe kill some old MIGs Is it invisible for present radars? no. So stealth is not big advantage and have too much disadvantages from high cost to low manoeuvrability.
Now, radar - Raptor's radar is piece of art(my congratulations to americans)... but... is it better than russian one? hard question... If you are american you better believe in that

What Russia has now? passive radars, phased array radars, satellite guided missiles, effective missiles like aa-11, aa-12 and much more. Raptor is a perfect fighter for American needs, but is it air superiority fighter? No, not even now.

About PAK FA.. i've seen REAL photo of that fighter in hangar(can't remember where) - it's just beautiful... it will be outstanding fighter.

what does it look like, does it fit the description that i provided?

thanx doe informaing me that they beat those F-15C's 9 to 1, i didn't know that, now, i can fight back wit them about that incident

Originally posted by ExD
About PAK FA.. i've seen REAL photo of that fighter in hangar(can't remember where) - it's just beautiful... it will be outstanding fighter.

wow man, are you saying that the PAK FA already has a protoype stage, I would love to see some pictures, could you provide any links ?

Originally posted by ExD
Currently, Raptor costs $258,000,000 apiece, too much.. Pentagon wants 277 of this birds, this fighter developed for 23 years. ok..

It's seems that su-47(s-37) won't go into production, and will be replaced by PAK FA, but let's see what we have now:

su30mki seems that it's very cost-effective fighter, exercises shows that F-15C lost 9 to 1. Oh, i forgot, you think that F-15E is better based on it's radar and not restricted AIM120 range, but even upgraded it can't be compared with su30 radar, also russian missiles technically more advanced. And don't forget that su30mki is version for export with lowered capabilities.

It already seems that su30 is capable to kill Raptor. Raptor designed to be stealthy and detect enemy fighters before they detect him. First of all Raptor almost invisible for radars created in 60'es, so you can bomb third world countries and maybe kill some old MIGs

Is it invisible for present radars? no. So stealth is not big advantage and have too much disadvantages from high cost to low o.
Now, radar - Raptor's radar is piece of art(my congratulations to americans)... but... is it better than russian one? hard question... If you are american you better believe in that:pu

What Russia has now? passive radars, phased array radars, satellite guided missiles, effective missiles like aa-11, aa-12 and much more. Raptor is a perfect fighter for American needs, but is it air superiority fighter? No, not even now.

About PAK FA.. i've seen REAL photo of that fighter in hangar(can't remember where) - it's just beautiful... it will be outstanding fighter.

While I can not forgive your ignorance I feel that I have to speak up. To be simple, YOU ARE WRONG on almost all accounts. The passive radars, phased array radars, satellite guided missiles, efffectives missiles you speak of are all installed and being installed right now. New longer range versions of the AIM-120 and AIM-9 are coming out right now. F-15 is getting a massive radar and computer upgrade. It will also be getting a system so that you can aim missle with the head(I know that Russia had that on Mig-29 and such but the systems have been used on US attack heliopcters long before that). AESA radar will be installed on F-35, F'A-22, F/A-18 E/F and many others. The F/A-22 is a stealthy aircraft that can handle better than all fighters. Don;t speak of the Cobra move either. It has no real combat use and American aircraft have done the move. The stealth itself is intended for use against other fighters. It will be a very small target on any radar set. It is the nature of the shape. You have to remeber that every expect, including Russian, have said that the F/A-22 is ling right now. It is the best. Why do you think the Mig 1.44 was being developed? Also the Su-30 is based off the Su-27 whoes design is only a few years newer than the F-15. So next time lets try to research the fatcs. All I have said is true. Remeber Deny ignorance, especially yourself. It seems that you have been fooled.

The F/A-22 is a stealthy aircraft that can handle better than all fighters.

when u say handle better than all fighters, do u mean maenuverability?, because if u do, then NO, JUS NO, the F-22 is one of the most maneuverable aircraft, but not the most maneuverable




Don;t speak of the Cobra move either. It has no real combat use and American aircraft have done the move.

oh really, the americans have done the cobra too ehh, k, show me, get me a video, or a website(thats credible) almost any type f proof, haven't u ever thought of that when aircraft get close up and start launching their short range missiles, they're not going at Mach 2.5 or even above Mach 1.5, they're going at very low speeds, and if u can throw off an oppenent by doing a cobra going 800 kmh, that could be a great advantage to u, well, not GREAT, plus, when u spin, but the main reason why russian aircraft perform these tricks is because it shows their superior maneuverability



You have to remeber that every expect, including Russian, have said that the F/A-22 is ling right now. It is the best. Why do you think the Mig 1.44 was being developed?


well, its being developed as a counter to the F-22, so wats u're point?


Also the Su-30 is based off the Su-27 whoes design is only a few years newer than the F-15. So next time lets try to research the fatcs. All I have said is truth

yes, the Su-27 is about 8-11 years younger than the F-15, but the Su-30 uses the same airframe, except they included canards, but the computer systems are totally different

Anybody who thinks that the "Cobra" or the "Bell" is an effective combat maneuver doesn't have the slightest bit of knowledge of air combat tactics. Ask ANY experienced fighter pilot what is the most important advantage in an aerial dogfight one could possess over an enemy, and they will ALL say the same thing...Speed. The ability to accellerate towards or away from an enemy, to out-climb him, or to out-dive him. Speed will save your life, speed will compensate for your mistakes.

The LAST thing a fighter pilot wants to do in an engagement is suddenly decellerate to almost a stop, and head off in a different direction at less than 250 kts. Don't fool yourself into believing that visual range combat with short range AAM's is the norm. Even by Vietnam era standards, that was an engagement of last resort.

BVR is the rule, and the weapon system with the most accurate, discriminating, and ECM resistant homer will ultimately be the deciding factor in AAC, not who can turn on a dime or come to complete stop for some reason.

If for some reason an Suhkoi manages to survive the BVR assault and gets within visual of a target, there is no doubt that the Blue forces are in deep doo-doo, but the reality of this fact is that Blue air forces are designed to prevent this scenario from happening. And say whatever you want about the Flankers, but if the pilot flying it has no practical combat experience, or better yet, no advanced AA combat training received on a regular basis, Red forces will drop like flies in the face of Blue forces equipped with superior training, tactics, and competent aircraft.

I would take the average Brit flyer in a GR1 or the average American in an F-15 over an average Russian or Chinese pilot in a Flanker ANY DAY, taking into consideration the averages of training, tactics, maintenance, and weapon system reliability as a WHOLE.

Air combat IS NOT just the aircraft, folks.

Here is a quote from Seekerof:

the Sukhoi's can also do a 120 degree AOA (angle of attack) which they also brag about but fail to comment on how long the aircraft can hold the position. The 120 AOA has only been proven to have been done a few times and only for a few seconds. And that is not opinion...thats simply fact.
On the other hand.......the F-22 can perform a constant 60 +/- degree AOA, not seconds, and can do this while rocking the wings at higher speeds than the Sukhoi's. This is a feat that NO other aircraft can do. Also, the AOA for the F-22 is unlimited even though it has not been tested outside the wind tunnel tests beyond 80 degrees + AOA. Here is a picture of a F-22 doing such a 70 degree AOA upside down. To confirm this, look at the engine heat:
www.codeonemagazine.com...

Click on "Marvel of Engineering". Little before Half Way it shows the F/A-22 doing the Cobra Manouver.

www.f22-raptor.com...

MATV F-16 doing cobra maneuver
www.lmtas.com...

Asian Aerospace 2004, F-15E performing a cobra maneuver at the air show. Photos by Ed Turner


The old F-14 can also perform a limited cobra.

Originally posted by Pyros
Air combat IS NOT just the aircraft, folks.

It's all about the training, baby..

Really what it boils down to is this:

SuperManuverability: Not proven in combat. A cobra as most of us armchair pilots and the few real ones here on ATS conclude would be a death trap.

Stealth: manuver all you want, your not going to see the platform that launches the AMRAAM that kills you.

Bottom line: Su-47 Cool plane neat FSW, but NOT a production aircraft. The F-22 is entering ILRP and will be in service soon. The F-22 vs. Su-47 duel is going to be left ot flight sims.

A more interesting debate IMHO is this: could a small number of F-22 hold of al larger flight of the JSF optimized for A to A? Say 4 to 12?

Originally posted by longbow
2. Also with external weapons the F-22 will still be much more stealthy than EVERYTHING that could be flying against it, so it still has an advantage.

I posted an AWST article back, the USAF is looking at putting stealthy JASMS on the F-22, It will take a hit in the radar return aspect but not much.

Also the F-22 would firstdo its primary mission: Air Surperiority then it could revert to its F/A role.

Originally posted by Murcielago
Nope, even our closest allies wont get the same stuff that the US military gets. We prefer to keep our stealth edge that we have over the rest of the world, and not just sell it all away.

Untrue, the only exeption is the UK. I'll give you a clue, one of the three main contractors is BAE Systems, who are building the aft fuselage and horizontal and vertical tails. ( Linky ). It's kinda hard to make one country get less tech when that country is helping to build the plane...

Also, Rolls-Royce are designing the STOVL lift fan, and almost certainly GKN have a huge hand in the canopy (and as an aeronautical engineer will tell you, the canopy is a major feature of a stealth aircraft. Ever seen the canopy of the F/A-22 Raptor? That's GKN. More Linky ).

Go Googling about the JSF, and open a bunch of links explaining the project. On every single one it will say that the main customers are the USAF, the USN, the USMC and the UK royal navy. We are a level one partner, and we are the only one with input into the design.

Edit: Oh, GKN are doing some weird composite moulding around the engines: Bla .

[edit on 23-11-2004 by Cjwinnit]

Originally posted by jetsetter
the F-22 can perform a constant 60 +/- degree AOA, not seconds, and can do this while rocking the wings at higher speeds than the Sukhoi's.

This is a feat that NO other aircraft can do.

Click on "Marvel of Engineering". Little before Half Way it shows the F/A-22 doing the Cobra Manouver.

1. Agree

2. really?! Su-47 can hold unlimited AOA for indefinite time.... that what s-37 designers claim.

3. Thats not cobra but 'kolokol' ('bell' in russian) - aircraft goes straight up until reaches 0 speed, then falls back down.

F-22 holds 60 degrees AOA, bid deal, Su-30MKI held 70 degrees AOA for about 10 seconds, and also 120 degrees AOA for 4 seconds. I have video to prove my self. its burried somewhere in my video colloection of 500 videos on Mig/Su aircraft.

[edit on 23-11-2004 by titus]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
Well please - tell me an area of perormance where the Typhoon is better. I'm all ears.

In terms of mission profile, the Typhoon as it's currently rated is the best plane in the world for search-and-destroy. Raptor beats it at air superiority.

In terms of pure numbers, I think the Typhoon has a shorter Operational Runway Length due to the lift generated by the canards (as opposed to the downforce of the Raptor's tails).

And of course the standard weapons it of the Typhoon compared to the Raptor is just outclassed. Sidewinder, IRIS-T, ASRAAM, Skyflash, Aspide, AMRAAM, Meteor, BL755, CRV-7, ALARM, HARM, Storm Shadow, Brimstone, Penguin..

[edit on 23-11-2004 by Cjwinnit]

yeah but Russia gives much more accurate statistics on there plane then America, because they sell them, and so they want it to sound very appealing, while the US isn't selling the Raptor.

[edit on 24-11-2004 by Murcielago]

Originally posted by American Mad Man
No - again, no one is getting the Raptor but the US. All your link says is that Australia wanted it, not that they were allowed to buy it. Just because you want it does not mean we will let you have it. Your link concerned technology gaps, but the Raptor is one gap we are going to keep from everyone including Australia and the UK.

I'm not so sure about this, I will elaborate..

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV
Have you seen a Typhoon on take-off? It can practically loop straight off the runway.

It can. I have a video of an airshow where it did a really awesome set of manoevres, and I don't think it went above 2,000 feet...

Originally posted by titus

Originally posted by jetsetter
the F-22 can perform a constant 60 +/- degree AOA, not seconds, and can do this while rocking the wings at higher speeds than the Sukhoi's.

This is a feat that NO other aircraft can do.

Click on "Marvel of Engineering". Little before Half Way it shows the F/A-22 doing the Cobra Manouver.

1. Agree

2.

really?! Su-47 can hold unlimited AOA for indefinite time.... that what s-37 designers claim.

3. Thats not cobra but 'kolokol' ('bell' in russian) - aircraft goes straight up until reaches 0 speed, then falls back down.

F-22 holds 60 degrees AOA, bid deal, Su-30MKI held 70 degrees AOA for about 10 seconds, and also 120 degrees AOA for 4 seconds. I have video to prove my self. its burried somewhere in my video colloection of 500 videos on Mig/Su aircraft.

[edit on 23-11-2004 by titus]

This is a feat that NO other aircraft can do. Also, the AOA for the F-22 is unlimited even though it has not been tested outside the wind tunnel tests beyond 80 degrees + AOA.


[edit on 24-11-2004 by intrepid]

But what is the practical point of a high, or even unlimited, AoA? It has no practical purpose other than to show off the capabilities of the FBW system. It has to be one of the most utterly pointless capabilities ever designed into an aircraft

Originally posted by paperplane_uk
I personally like the idea of having it in the close air support mode 18 Brimstone missiles (US hellfire with upgraded sensors) will generally spoil your day.

I hope they give a few of them CRV-7 launchers. 6 launchers (19 rockets per launcher = 114 rockets per Eurofighter) basically turns it into flying rocket artillery

[edit on 24-11-2004 by Cjwinnit]

So no-one could come up with a practical use for high or unlimited sustained AoA flight? Says it all. At least it stopped the posturing

[edit on 27-11-2004 by waynos]