Christians, preach the Gospel. Do not debate.

reply to post by shaluach


Continued….

Originally posted by Joecroft
Originally posted by Joecroft
“Did you not read the OP?”

Originally posted by Shaluach
Not hostile. Simple question. You asked a question that was already answered in my initial post, so that made me question whether you bothered to read the whole OP.

Ok, maybe not hostile, but definitely a negative attitude. And I asked you to tell me the difference between debate and discussion, in your own words. And that question wasn’t covered in your OP directly, and you still haven’t even answered the question yet! All you have done is deflect from the question itself, by saying stuff like…

“I answered your question in a comment to another poster”…which you clearly didn’t (see above)

And

“Didn’t you read the OP”…When the question I asked you, wasn’t covered in detail, in your OP…

And

“Oh and here's the verse in FULL CONTEXT” …When the context, was irrelevant, to the question I was asking you.

Originally posted by Shaluach
“Oh and here's the verse in FULL CONTEXT”

Originally posted by Shaluach
The capitals wasn't hostility; it was stressing the words "full context." I should have used italics or bold letters instead.

Bearing in mind everything I’ve pointed out so far, the added bold letters didn’t help.


Anyway, if your wondering why I’m so passionate about this subject, it’s because I came to find God and believe in Jesus, by discussing and debating, religion, not just online, but in real life as well, at a born again Christian church. And I debated, not to stroke my own ego, but because I was genuinely interested in seeking the truth.

This whole spirit of this site is about denying ignorance and embracing/ seeking the truth. And yet here YOU ARE! On a thread, telling people that they shouldn’t be doing any of that, because debate is somehow wrong etc.

I mean, you seem to be essentially saying that as soon as 2 people disagree, then it’s time to just give up and walk away, in other words, not even bother to stand up, for what you believe in.


- JC

reply to post by Bone75

Originally posted by Joecroft
Giving an answer means to explain, to explain means to get into a debate/discussion, especially if someone disagrees with you

Originally posted by Bone75
A discussion doesn't become a debate UNTIL someone disagrees with you or challenges your position. You and Skinny could discuss how ridiculous you think the Bible is all day long without debating it. So you're wrong.

So do you think that after discussing it all day there would never come a point, where we might disagree about something, and yet continue to discuss it, (or debate it), in a non-hostile manner? You see, because for me, all debate, comes under the banner of discussion.

And the thing is, ironically and paradoxically, is that it’s up for debate, or discussion, depending on how you view the 2. (2 = debate and discussion)

IMO they are both facets of the same thing.

Originally posted by Joecroft
And now that I’m on the subject, I’m starting to detect a hostile tone in your responses

Originally posted by Bone75
Which is the whole point of the OP Debating you is pointless and will only lead to frustration, especially when you're too dense to acknowledge something as simple as the difference between a discussion and a debate.

I’ll ignore the “too dense” comment for now…but hopefully after you can see my perspective, you might consider retracting it…


The thing is, when I first asked the OP the question, there was no disagreement at that point. I only stated I saw it differently, in later posts, so at that earlier stage, we were only, by definition ( which is pretty loose in IMO anyway) discussing it.


Debating is not pointless, it’s what where doing, right now lol


And the OP, during our discussion or debate, was the first to show signs of hostility, arrogance, and a negative attitude. And yet ironically, the verse I was discussing with the OP i.e. 1 Peter 3:15, talks about having the exact opposite attitude, that the OP displayed, towards me.


If all we ever do in discussions, is walk away, when we both disagree, then there is no progress to ever be made, and we become doomed to remain in ignorance. Which goes completely against the ethos, of this entire website.


I mean, look at the great scientific minds in the past. They came together to discuss things, and of course, many times, they had huge disagreements, but out of those disagreements, progress and a greater understanding was established.

I’ve seen some awesome debates here on ATS, in the 3 n half years that I’ve been here. But what I’ve learned is that debating a topic actually helps both sides regardless of who wins, or who appears to win. Both sides learn something from each other (assuming there open of course), they also learn more perspectives and knowledge of a subject, after debating and researching it etc.

I think deep down though, that what the OP is really trying to point out, is that there are many people out there, who aren’t really in it for the debate, or to try to learn anything from the other party…but are instead, only looking for cheap shots, and a way to stroke their own egos.


- JC

Originally posted by Prezbo369
Don't debate?............burning books is just around the corner

Non sequitur.

And this from a 'former atheist'........whos reasons for becoming a christian are typically vague

I'm sorry. I didn't know I had to explain a personal life change to everyone. And there is no need for quotations as if I was lying. Let me guess, next you're going to use a No True Scotsman argument.

Originally posted by Prezbo369
OP how about breaking the mould and 'explaining' just one or two of the game-breaking events in your life that completely changed your worldview?

Why? Is it going to change anything? Is it going to make you a believer? No. All it will do is get me ridiculed or you and others will try to explain it away. My faith is personal and I have no problem discussing my change from atheism to faith, but I will only do it with people who are genuinely curious. Not those who are obviously combative.

Originally posted by Prezbo369
After all it may or may not help those who are undecided.............one way or another

If anyone is curious about that they can contact me personally. My email address is [email protected]

Originally posted by Joecroft
No you didn’t!

I asked you to explain the difference between the, 2 in your own words.

Again, yes I did. You clearly did not read all of my responses. Heck you didn't read a third of them. If you had made it to the second page you would see I did answer it.

Since you believe that I am "arrogant" and seek to do nothing but be insulting I'm done attempting to even communicate with you. You are one of those people who are addicted to the idea of debate. You keep trying to pull me back into debating and I won't do.

So with that said, anything you say to me from henceforth I will be ignoring. Waste your time if you so desire and feel the need to feed your ego. Been there, done that. Not anymore.

Originally posted by Joecroft


I mean, you seem to be essentially saying that as soon as 2 people disagree, then it’s time to just give up and walk away, in other words, not even bother to stand up, for what you believe in.

- JC

edit on 25-6-2012 by Joecroft because: (no reason given)

Sorry. This is my last response to you. You are 100% wrong. That is not what I am saying. I have said this numerous times. Disagreement does not constitute debate. You can respectfully disagree about something and respectfully discuss this disagreement. That's not debate. That's discussion.

You came to faith through debate? Well I came to faith through discussion. But your responses didn't make it seem you were a Christian. In fact I assumed otherwise. Attacking me and accusing me of being negative and of putting words in your mouth? Sorry, but you did the exact same thing. And I didn't know you were a Christian. You knew I was. This is how you act towards another Christian? I think you need to spend some more time in the Word and learn what it says about not only treating people in general but treating your brothers and sisters in Christ.

And I am not promoting ignorance in the least bit. That's another slanderous lie by you against me. You are bearing false witness which is a commandment violation.

As I said before I am done now with you. I refuse to engage with people who behave like you do.

Originally posted by shaluach

Originally posted by Prezbo369
Don't debate?............burning books is just around the corner

Non sequitur.

Well I disagree, whenever we see folks like Kirk Cameron telling people to 'circumvent the intellect' which is akin to 'do not debate', I think it does follow, dangerously.

And this from a 'former atheist'........whos reasons for becoming a christian are typically vague

I'm sorry. I didn't know I had to explain a personal life change to everyone. And there is no need for quotations as if I was lying. Let me guess, next you're going to use a No True Scotsman argument.

I was merely stating that the reasons for the switch-around were vague, I wasn't demanding an explanation just making an observation. An observation that typically follows the claim 'I used to be an atheist'. It's seen on these forums and many many others time and time again.

Originally posted by Prezbo369
OP how about breaking the mould and 'explaining' just one or two of the game-breaking events in your life that completely changed your worldview?

Why? Is it going to change anything? Is it going to make you a believer? No. All it will do is get me ridiculed or you and others will try to explain it away. My faith is personal and I have no problem discussing my change from atheism to faith, but I will only do it with people who are genuinely curious. Not those who are obviously combative.

If you want anyone to take your OP seriously, I think giving at least some idea as to why you became a believer would go a long way. Especially as you go into some detail in your OP about 'my time as an atheist'.......

Originally posted by Prezbo369
After all it may or may not help those who are undecided.............one way or another

If anyone is curious about that they can contact me personally. My email address is

I thought I just did.....this is your thread right?..........there are many many people that read these forums some of whom may be very interested in your story, who do not take the time to post or register. Think how much you could help these people with your account, your journey from one polar worldview to another.

Hiding behind an email address that you may or may not respond to doesnt give your story or your claims much credibility

reply to post by shaluach

Originally posted by Shaluach
Again, yes I did. You clearly did not read all of my responses. Heck you didn't read a third of them. If you had made it to the second page you would see I did answer it.

Again, Yes you did.

I asked you the question on page 1, for crying out loud, and it wasn’t answered in your previous posts. You also change your tune from saying you covered it earlier, to now saying you covered on page 2, which was after I asked you the question. So you still expected me, to have read all of your ongoing discussions from there, with other posters, in order to find the answer, which is pretty arrogant IMO, when you could have just came out with it, in a direct response.

I’m just calling it, as I see it.


And if you referring to this below on page 2…

Originally posted by Shaluach
Discussion is designed to respectfully exchange ideas and possibly reach a mutual understanding. Debate is for nothing more than feeding the ego and attempting to discredit one's viewpoint.

Then this still doesn’t answer my question from page one, because you don’t fully describe the differences between the 2. And to say that debate is nothing more than “feeding the ego and attempting to discredit one's viewpoint.”, is a completely biased view of what debating is, and can be.

Or did you cover the rest of my question, in another off hand comment, in reply, to another poster.

Originally posted by Shaluach
Since you believe that I am "arrogant" and seek to do nothing but be insulting I'm done attempting to even communicate with you. You are one of those people who are addicted to the idea of debate. You keep trying to pull me back into debating and I won't do.

I’m not being insulting, I’m just pointing out how it looks so far. But when the question was initially asked, there was no disagreement between us, so at that point, by definition, we were only discussing it. But because you refused to give me your opinion on it, I decided to just go ahead and give you mine.

Originally posted by Shaluach
So with that said, anything you say to me from henceforth I will be ignoring. Waste your time if you so desire and feel the need to feed your ego. Been there, done that. Not anymore.

But all we are doing is trying to discuss whether there is difference between discussion and debate, I mean, it’s not even a delicate, or sensitive topic in itself. Which is one of the reasons, that I find it bizarre that you can’t even discuss it, because it’s a debate, and you can’t go there! Etc…

And although I think your attitude hasn’t been great so far, I don’t mind, and I’m quite prepared to move past it. In fact, from my perspective, right now, although we disagree, we are, IMO having a friendly discussion/debate. The only problem is, you’ve read parts of my perspective on the subject, but you haven’t yet given me yours.


And just to add, your OP is about not debating religion/Christianity, which is fair enough, I suppose, and your entitled to that opinion, but what me and you are attempting to discuss/debate here, is about a completely different topic, albeit slightly interconnected.


So unless you’re of the opinion that we shouldn’t debate anything, ever, at all, under any circumstances, then I really don’t see what the problem is? i.e. where not discussing Christianity, but the difference between debate and discussion.


And as for ego comment; ask anyone on ATS if I’m the kind of person who likes to feed his own ego… I’ll let them be the judge.


- JC

reply to post by shaluach

Originally posted by Shaluach
Sorry. This is my last response to you. You are 100% wrong. That is not what I am saying. I have said this numerous times. Disagreement does not constitute debate. You can respectfully disagree about something and respectfully discuss this disagreement. That's not debate. That's discussion.

But that’s what I’m attempting to do . i.e. “respectfully discuss this disagreement.”

Which is why I asked my question on page 1! And at that stage we weren’t even in disagreement!


If every time people throughout history stopped when they reached a disagreement, then their would have been no progress, within a variety scientific fields, religious topics, and so forth.

Originally posted by Shaluach
You came to faith through debate? Well I came to faith through discussion.

No. Have you not read a single post I’ve made to you so far; I came to believe what I do, through debate and discussion. But I don’t see them as mutually exclusive, and I’m not looking for a fight, or trying to force this opinion onto you, in anyway.

Originally posted by Shaluach
But your responses didn't make it seem you were a Christian. In fact I assumed otherwise. Attacking me and accusing me of being negative and of putting words in your mouth?

I never attacked you, where did I attack you. If anything you attacked me first, with you general demeanor and bad attitude, all I did was point your attitude out to you.

Originally posted by Shaluach
Sorry, but you did the exact same thing. And I didn't know you were a Christian. You knew I was. This is how you act towards another Christian?

How have I acted badly, show me where, again all I have done is point out your negative attitude, from my first few replies.

And since when does one, have to declare that there’re a Christian, in order to be treated fairly or differently? You should have taken your own advice, from my first post onwards.

Originally posted by Shaluach
I think you need to spend some more time in the Word and learn what it says about not only treating people in general but treating your brothers and sisters in Christ.

In what way did I treat you badly other than pointing out your negativity.

I treat everyone with respect at all times regardless of whether they are Christians or not. To me, everyone is a child of the living God, regardless of who they are; Perhaps you should take your own advice.

Originally posted by Shaluach
And I am not promoting ignorance in the least bit. That's another slanderous lie by you against me. You are bearing false witness which is a commandment violation.

Another, what do mean Another lol

Well, this what I’m trying to find out, but your holding back, and it wouldn’t have gotten to this point, if you had only just answered my first question back on page one.

And I’m not bearing false witness against anyone, I was simply pointing out that when people don’t look for answers through debate/discussion etc that it can lead to ignorance.


And For crying out loud, it’s not like where discussing/debating abortion, or some other heated topic. All where attempting to discuss is the difference between discussion and debate. It’s really that simple.

I really can’t understand you overall defensiveness and negativity, from the my first post onwards.

Originally posted by Shaluach
As I said before I am done now with you. I refuse to engage with people who behave like you do.

Behave like what exactly…?

I should have taken your stance before I made my 3rd post on this thread!
Bearing in mind your conduct leading up to it.

And now you have the audacity, to try and flip turn this around onto me!


How about I start a new thread, which covers the early parts of our discussion on this thread, and then asks the whole opinion of ATS, as to what they thought of your conduct with me, before I pointed out you were being (a) Arrogant (b) Negative and (c) Slightly hostile.


- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft
But all we are doing is trying to discuss whether there is difference between discussion and debate, I mean, it’s not even a delicate, or sensitive topic in itself. Which is one of the reasons, that I find it bizarre that you can’t even discuss it, because it’s a debate, and you can’t go there! Etc…

No, your accusatory and condescending tone has taken it out of the realm of discussion and into the realm of debate which is a place I won't go. Had you kept it respectful we could have discussed these differences. Time and time again you took things negative, threw out accusations against me, etc. I will not partake in that. Sorry. Perhaps next time with someone you will be more observant of the way you come across and the way you talk to people. Maybe then someone will be more open to discussing things with you instead of coming across like a condescending bully.

Time and time again you accused me of refusing to discuss things, all because you define debate and discuss as the same thing. I do not see them as the same thing and I have outlined the difference. Even when I point that out to you it's not good enough.

I have no problem with discussing things respectfully and intelligently. The second someone comes across in a negative manner, when it seems they aren't really curious for answers and/or that they just want to push their agenda, then I'm done.

Find someone else to argue with because I'm not the one.

Originally posted by Joecroft


But that’s what I’m attempting to do . i.e. “respectfully discuss this disagreement.”

To me, you have not been respectful.

reply to post by Prezbo369



Well I have things to do. Putting my whole conversion story into writing would take some time. Maybe one day I will. I can promise it was nothing like angels descending from the heavens or a near-death experience or anything like that.

My conversion was life-changing for me. Maybe it will be for someone else going through the same things I did. Maybe not. But if I do post it on here I will not engage people who only seek to theist-bash, because I know a thread like that will draw the trolls out.

And that's another reason why I am reluctant to post something like that on here. I strive to have a positive life. I have no time for negative people.

reply to post by shaluach

Why? Is it going to change anything? Is it going to make you a believer? No. All it will do is get me ridiculed or you and others will try to explain it away. My faith is personal and I have no problem discussing my change from atheism to faith, but I will only do it with people who are genuinely curious. Not those who are obviously combative.

Keep in mind theyre not here to find Christ, theyre here to tear him down and take us with him if they can. Anything that you tell about your personal life will open you up to ridicule and personal attacks. They will even take what you say and turn against you. Don't throw your pearls at them, these aren't the people who will recieve you.

reply to post by Joecroft

I’ll ignore the “too dense” comment for now

Don't ignore it, embrace it. The man is trying to teach you something.

Originally posted by Shaluach
Personally, I think the line between debate and discussion is very clear

In your own words...

The thing is, I don’t really see the difference between the 2. You can be discussing something with a friend, for example, and as soon as you both disagree about an element of the discussion, it automatically becomes a debate.

You made the distinction between the 2 right there. Your failure to recognize it is known as being "dense".

reply to post by shaluach

Originally posted by Shaluach
No, your accusatory and condescending tone has taken it out of the realm of discussion and into the realm of debate which is a place I won't go.

But you even said yourself that “respectfully discussing a disagreement.” was fine, as in your post below…

That’s exactly what where attempting to do now…

Originally posted by Shaluach
….
Disagreement does not constitute debate. You can respectfully disagree about something and respectfully discuss this disagreement. That's not debate. That's discussion.

Originally posted by Shaluach
Had you kept it respectful we could have discussed these differences.

How have I been disrespectful?

Like I pointed out in my previous post, you were the one who showed signs of arrogance and a negativity from my 3rd post onwards, all I did was respond to it, and point it out to you.

Originally posted by Shaluach
Time and time again you took things negative, threw out accusations against me, etc. I will not partake in that. Sorry. Perhaps next time with someone you will be more observant of the way you come across and the way you talk to people. Maybe then someone will be more open to discussing things with you instead of coming across like a condescending bully.

Show me where my accusations, weren’t unfounded?

I already explained in one of my other posts, why I thought your conduct was bad, but all your doing now is accusing me of the same thing, without showing where and how?

Originally posted by Shaluach
Time and time again you accused me of refusing to discuss things, all because you define debate and discuss as the same thing. I do not see them as the same thing and I have outlined the difference. Even when I point that out to you it's not good enough.

But you haven’t outlined the difference, even though I have asked you to do so. And anyone following the discussion can clearly see that you deflected from answering the question, and gave me the run around, from my second post onwards, which you’re not even prepared to admit, was bad conduct.

Originally posted by Shaluach
I have no problem with discussing things respectfully and intelligently. The second someone comes across in a negative manner, when it seems they aren't really curious for answers and/or that they just want to push their agenda, then I'm done.

But I am curious and I’m genuinely interested in your perspective, between how you define debate and discussion, in your own words.


Heck, we can even call it a discussion, just to get the ball rolling, if it makes you feel any better.


And like you said yourself
“You can respectfully disagree about something and respectfully discuss this disagreement. That's not debate. That's discussion discussing something.”

I’m even prepared to drop the whole, “who did what, to who first” and start fresh; it’s an open invitation, so here’s my question from page one again.

Originally posted by Shaluach
Personally, I think the line between debate and discussion is very clear

Originally posted by Joecroft
Really…


Well, could you explain to me the difference between the 2, in your own words…?

No agenda here, no malice, or condescending speech, not even going to tell you your wrong, or put in a negative judgment, it just not my style; but you have to give some kind of an opinion on how you see it, because it’s on topic with the discussion in your OP.

After all, that’s what people do here on ATS, discuss/debate topics etc…


- JC

reply to post by Bone75

Originally posted by Bone75
Don't ignore it, embrace it. The man is trying to teach you something.

I’ll just ignore that part…thanks…

Originally posted by Bone75

In your own words...

Originally posted by Joecroft
The thing is, I don’t really see the difference between the 2. You can be discussing something with a friend, for example, and as soon as you both disagree about an element of the discussion, it automatically becomes a debate.

That was me describing how debate is generally viewed, and not how I see it personally.

You also forgot to add the rest of the context to what I said above which was really important in understanding what I was saying overall…here’s the rest of it…

Originally posted by Joecroft
The thing is, I don’t really see the difference between the 2. You can be discussing something with a friend, for example, and as soon as you both disagree about an element of the discussion, it automatically becomes a debate.

But this IMO, is all part and parcel, of discussing anything regardless of the topic; and just because 2 people disagree about something, doesn’t mean they can’t have a friendly discussion/debate, where both sides put his/her points across.

I’m clearly hinting towards this idea, which I describe below, which is that I believe, debate and discussion, to be facets of the same thing.



And to find out how I see it, you would have to have read, my other posts where I described how I see it personally… see further below…

Originally posted by Bone75
You made the distinction between the 2 right there. Your failure to recognize it is known as being "dense"

No, I made the distinction here…in my other posts…

Originally posted by Joecroft
Debate and discussion, are one and the same thing!

And just to add, debating isn’t pointless…IMO

I even said clearly how I see it here, in reply to you!!!… below…

Originally posted by Joecroft
So do you think that after discussing it all day there would never come a point, where we might disagree about something, and yet continue to discuss it, (or debate it), in a non-hostile manner? You see, because for me, all debate, comes under the banner of discussion.

And the thing is, ironically and paradoxically, is that it’s up for debate, or discussion, depending on how you view the 2. (2 = debate and discussion)

IMO they are both facets of the same thing.

And if you’d been following the whole discussion between me and the OP you would have known that!


My turn, to call you dense…


- JC

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000


Keep in mind theyre not here to find Christ, theyre here to tear him down and take us with him if they can. Anything that you tell about your personal life will open you up to ridicule and personal attacks. They will even take what you say and turn against you. Don't throw your pearls at them, these aren't the people who will recieve you.

edit on 25-6-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

Amen, my brotha! That's exactly my point and that's why I provided my personal email address. Those who seriously are curious can contact me and build on my conversion personally.

Originally posted by shaluach

 

Well I have things to do. Putting my whole conversion story into writing would take some time. Maybe one day I will. I can promise it was nothing like angels descending from the heavens or a near-death experience or anything like that.

I requested one or two events from your worldview flipflop to perhaps give your claims some validity, not your whole 'conversion'. One of the biggest issues with this thread has been your habit of not reading the responses fully and then putting words in peoples mouths. We're all busy with things to do, but as a christian are you too busy to help save those you consider lost?...

My conversion was life-changing for me. Maybe it will be for someone else going through the same things I did. Maybe not. But if I do post it on here I will not engage people who only seek to theist-bash, because I know a thread like that will draw the trolls out.

The truth has nothing to fear....if your faith is strong then no amount of trolls or theist bashing would deter you.

And that's another reason why I am reluctant to post something like that on here. I strive to have a positive life. I have no time for negative people.

Attempting to help save those lost sheep is surely a positive endeavour no?

reply to post by Joecroft


OK, Joe. I'll make this as quick as possible.

Basically it is the tone of the person that illustrates if they are interested in an honest discussion or a debate.

To me, discussion is respectful and for the purpose of understanding differences of opinion. A discussion is like sitting down and just having a good conversation about something even though you may view it differently.

It is clear someone is only looking to debate when everything they say is provocative, trying to get a reaction out of someone. Another sign of debate is they are being insulting and mocking of someone's views. They are not interested in a good conversation. They just want to ridicule the other person and their views. A debate can also be very rigid. A lot of online debaters like to take what someone says point by point and attempt to dismantle and demolish what they are saying.

As I said, debate is all about the ego and "winning." Discussion is about helping someone understand your point and you understanding theirs, even if you don't agree in the end.

Basically when someone engages you you can usually tell by the way they talk/type what direction they are heading. Do they care about reaching a mutual understanding or do they only seek to ridicule. Are they being polite and asking genuine questions or are they condescending and only trying to illustrate why your views are "absurd"?

This is why I disagree with you that debate and discussion are the same thing. They carry two totally different tones. And again I say look to 2 Timothy 2:14-16

Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly."

Paul says to warn people about "quarreling about words." That's debate. He says it is of no value and ruins those who listen to it. We are to "correctly handle the word of truth" and "avoid godless chatter." Finally he warns that doing so will make those who do so "become more and more ungodly."

It's really quite simple.

Hope this has answered your inquiry.

reply to post by Prezbo369

I requested one or two events from your worldview flipflop to perhaps give your claims some validity, not your whole 'conversion'. One of the biggest issues with this thread has been your habit of not reading the responses fully and then putting words in peoples mouths. We're all busy with things to do, but as a christian are you too busy to help save those you consider lost?...

You know of Christ, you have heard his story. You seek him out, thats is your responsibility. The only thing i have seen you seek is to ridicule people.