Christians, preach the Gospel. Do not debate.

reply to post by Germanicus

It is saying, 'if they wont listen, do not waste time on them because you will have the last laugh when they are burning in hell'.

I understand why you see it that way... after all, religion is the single greatest detriment to God's plan sometimes. Too much hell, not enough forgiveness; too much demanding, not enough understanding; too much talk, not enough action in our own lives.

So please don't take this as "preaching". It's an explanation.

The verse in question is simply a statement that not everyone will consider what is being said. Many will discount it out-of-hand. Those that do will, sadly, miss out. But nothing will be gained from taking anything away from such an experience. The word "hell" was your insertion (no doubt from years of listening to hell-packed sermons based on my reading of your interpretation).

If you tell someone something and they will not listen, what choices do you have? I know of three: smile and leave, knowing you did your best to tell them; get angry and leave in a huff, thereby poisoning your next attempt to tell people the news; try to force them to listen (which we all agree is useless and counter-productive).

Take the first option. That's all it means. Not so scary; not so mean.

TheRedneck

Isn't it funny how this thread turned into a religious debate LOL.
I'm out.

Sinny,

Absolutely He knew. He is all-knowing. And my "we may be worse off without the temptation" was merely in response to your posing that. It is possible we would be worse off had that not happened. For one thing, we may be mindless servants (like the angels). I don't really know. But it is possible.

Yes, the Most High is "confusing." This is the problem with humanity. We want everything to be simple. The Most High is extremely complex, and people, especially Christians, trying to make him simplistic and easy to understand is a big problem, IMO. I actually plan on writing something about that subject in the future.

I don't know why the Most High "killed" in the past. Again, complex. Even the Scriptures attest to that fact.

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

- Isaiah 55

No, he made us a certain way and then we rebelled.

Discussion is designed to respectfully exchange ideas and possibly reach a mutual understanding. Debate is for nothing more than feeding the ego and attempting to discredit one's viewpoint.

reply to post by GmoS719



Gmost I was going to point out the same irony. How a post about not debating seemed to draw certain people in who merely wanted to debate. Should have known it would invite those elements

And, Sinny, that's not directed at you. I do believe your questions are legitimately information-seeking, as opposed to being provocative for provocative sake.

reply to post by shaluach


Thanks for your description on the debate/discussion thing.

Your God also has an ego, is it not a crime in his eyes to adore other idols?
Is it true your God shall punish me by hell for not taking his word on everything, I for one cannot trust a God I do not understand (apparently he does not want us to understand), and for finding him highly hypocrytical.

Thout shall not kill... Apart from me.
Thout shall not know... Apart from me etc etc.

How can you condone his murderous rampages, if you do not understand him and his reasons?

How can you believe in a book that was wrote at the hands of man? Do we not all know that history is written by the victor, and therefore is largely untrue? Can't the same be said for the bible?
You also say that you agree, to an extent, that Cristianity is a fabrication, a tool.

So how can you believe in it at all?

How do you view God? A man? An entity? White, black? Beared or clean shaven?

I'm probley bugging you, but I am curious.

Originally posted by GmoS719

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
Those that relish being dead of Christ keep quotations of gospel, for that they don't know Jesus' way in the slightest.

www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...


And Jesus answered: “Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your cars, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of
the hands of men?”

edit on 24-6-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Christians dead of the way

That book was written in 1937 and there is no truth to it. Nothing to back it up.

Based on texts from the Vatican library and the Royal Library of the Hapsburg’s and dated to the first century AD, it contains many references to fasting, vegetarianism and angels; all of which were altered or entirely removed from Christian teaching after the first Council of Nicaea in 325 AD.

There is more truth in the quote Magnumopus provided than in the entire Bible! As Paul said of the gentiles, the word is written in our hearts.

Originally posted by GmoS719

That book was written in 1937 and there is no truth to it. Nothing to back it up.

That isn't what the translators discovered:

www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...

Translated by Purcell Weaver and Edmond Szekely the following is considered by some to be a true account of Christ’s original teaching. Based on texts from the Vatican library and the Royal Library of the Hapsburg’s and dated to the first century AD, it contains many references to fasting, vegetarianism and angels; all of which were altered or entirely removed from Christian teaching after the first Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. Convened by the Emperor Constantine the Council effectively hammered out what was to become the Holy Roman Law scriptures. In the process a lot of Christianity’s original spiritual essence was edited or removed entirely to serve the more earthly agendas of the emergent Holy Roman Empire.

Me thinks you have not done the homework for the orgin of the text, and the translation from the times of first AD.

reply to post by GmoS719


yes,close your ears and mind to anything that does not support your religion, especially rational and legitimate thought.if half the stories of jesus are true,i hardly think he would have condoned the blatant disrespect of others cultures and beliefs and thats exactly what evangelism does. if i woke you up on a saturday morning once a month to tell you that god is not and was never a man and that the creator was an event in time and not an all knowing entity you would react the same way i do,you would run me out of your yard and throw rocks at my car as i rode off .everyone has a right to their own beliefs and to not be ridiculed or pestered because of them.there is nothing wrong with conversing with others of a different mindset,if your sure of your beliefs it would only strengthen them. i guess what i am trying to relate is you can not make people listen to your"opinion" without listening to theirs.well you can but that would make you a dik in my "opinion"

reply to post by Sinny


When did the Most High "adore other idols"? And no it's not true that the Most High will punish you for not taking his word on everything.

And who said I "condone his murderous rampages"? I said I do not understand his reasoning. See, it's questions like this that clearly lead away from discussion and into debate. The questions are leading and insulting in nature. They appear designed to get a certain reaction out of believers. They are provocative and do not appear like they are seeking genuine answers.

As per the OP I will not engage in that.

I believe in the Scriptures because I believe it was written by men, but inspired by the Most High.

History is written by the victor, yes, in a lot of cases. But who is the victor in this instance? The Most High? That would be acknowledging his existence. The ancient Hebrews who are the subject of the Scriptures? If that was the case, then they kind of did a crappy job writing a "false history" considering how negative a light it paints them in. If I was to write a false history of my people I would embellish and show my people in a positive light. I would not portray them as weak and sinful imbeciles.

Again, I do not believe in Christianity. I believe in Scriptures.

The Most High is not a man. I do not "view" Him. Unless we are talking about Yehoshuah (Jesus) and there were Scriptural descriptions of Him, but even His human body was only a temporary, and necessary, representation.

And, no, you are not bugging me. As long as your questions remain respectful and for the purpose of learning, I'm game.

You can also email me personally, I generally prefer that as it is more intimate and easier to follow than having to search a forum for responses. My email is [email protected]

reply to post by shaluach


Thanks for the reminder. As a former atheist myself, I can relate to your testimony and the experiences of Paul. Also, God reminded me of something today.

Proverbs 18:2

"Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions."

reply to post by shaluach

I am an ex-atheist and former debate junkie

What are you now, oh yes, a scriptures junkie.

I was addicted to it.

Rather inflammatory use of rhetoric when describing your past mindset, junkie, addicted. Could this possibly be describing your new focus? What your focused on has changed, but who you are on the inside has not.

You once had contempt for those of faith, you challenged them and pushed them and I dont think it a stretch to believe you were probably disrespectful in some cases, tunnel visioned.

No matter how hard I pushed

a sign of weakness and cowardice

Now its reversed, you hold those of no faith in contempt, so much so you are willing to misunderstand the scriptures and turn your back on those who wish to talk to you about it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please please use a different word than DEBATE, try heated conversation instead, I am an anti-theist and I love to talk to those of religious faith, I dont look down on them and i am not addicted (so as to be too forward and devoted to one midset, inflexible) to it.

As I learned in my time as an atheist, debate is all about your ego

So much learned about you in this simple statement. The most obvious is you actually learned very little in that time.

"go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Lets agree on what Jesus wanted here. It is understood that Jesus expected all those who hear the good news, the revelations, to immediatley preach his word and be willing to make that preaching your breath. Do you do this, are you, now, living proof that the scriptures are truth?
Or are you simply not able to dedicate every waking second to your faith? How strong is said faith if your every waking moment is not in homage to this truth you claim to have found?


- you were once a close minded, addicted, debate junkie, who only talked about the subject to feel some quasi-orgasmic egotistical rush. YOU TALKED AT PEOPLE, NOT TO THEM. This obviously brought you no joy or enlightenment ( what a f***ing surprise) so you took stock of things.

- now you have found faith, which allows you to be a close-minded, (unwilling to embrace in simple conversation, you call it debating!!!!!) addicted, scriptures junkie, who now has found HIS OWN reason to TALK AT PEOPLE, NOT TO THEM, which no doubt give you a quasi-orgasmic, (egotistical?) rush.

DO YOU NOTICE ANYTHING?

reply to post by shaluach


Thanks, I've took note of your email.

My questions are not intended to be leading or insulting, I have no motive apart from curiosity, I make an effort every now and then to attempt to understand religion and beliefs, espicially when they differ from my own.

I'd just like to mention, I didn't say God adored other idols, I said that he said *we* cannot. Is that not egotistical?

And one must presume if you submit your soul to this God, and worship him, you condone the muders he committed? Or do you not condone them? In that case shouldn't you question your whole beliefs?

I'm talking from a hypothertical standpoint of course, because I don't believe he existed, but for the sake of the discussion, I must talk as if he did.

I do feel, your defences are slightly up, and you use the guise of non-debate to avoid critical questions, like the ones I posted above.

I hope we can continue to discuss these matters.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
reply to post by shaluach

 

Thanks for the reminder. As a former atheist myself, I can relate to your testimony and the experiences of Paul. Also, God reminded me of something today.

Proverbs 18:2

"Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions."

And yet it is the athiests that ask more questions to understand this God, and the followers that dismiss them.

More hypocrisy.

reply to post by DarkKnight21


Thanks, DarkKnight. And I knew there was something worthy of this topic in Proverbs. I just was unable to find it. Kudos!

I like to think of it like planting seeds.

reply to post by Sinny


OK. I misunderstood what you said about the idols thing before. My bad

I do not condone or condemn. I do not understand His motivations or His reasoning. I accept that He has a plan and that somehow those actions fit into the overall Scriptural/salvation narrative.

This is what I mean about a leading question. Ultimately what that question is designed to do is either get me to blaspheme or condone "mass murder." I know because I used to use this same argument. I will do neither. As I said before, the Most High is extremely complex. More complex than we will ever understand. So if we get the chance to be in His prescence and bask in His glory maybe we will be able to understand His past actions. Or maybe we just won't care. I don't know.

I do not avoid critical questions. But I will avoid questions that I believe will lead to debate. It's all in the motivations of the person and the way the questions are framed.

Originally posted by Sinny

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
reply to post by shaluach

 

Thanks for the reminder. As a former atheist myself, I can relate to your testimony and the experiences of Paul. Also, God reminded me of something today.

Proverbs 18:2

"Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions."

And yet it is the athiests that ask more questions to understand this God, and the followers that dismiss them.

More hypocrisy.

I'm not sure what you're on about, but following Christ has produced some amazing results in my life. I'm more curious now about God and the world around me than I ever was when I couldn't own up to the fact that I was a sinner myself.

Originally posted by Sinny
And yet it is the athiests that ask more questions to understand this God, and the followers that dismiss them.

More hypocrisy.

That is absolutely not true. Atheists "ask questions" to discredit the Most High. It's not about understanding in the least bit. I've never once seen an atheist asking questions about the Most High in order to understand him. It's always been confrontational and designed to illustrate how absurd religion, faith, belief, etc. is.

Believers are very questioning. It's how our faith deepens. We are not "blind followers" like the persistent stereotype would claim.

But can you really make statements like this and claim that they are not designed to be provocative and insulting?