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Christians, preach the Gospel. Do not debate.
page: 6share:
Originally posted by shaluach
Originally posted by SaturnFX
just a angry theist playing the atheist role to guise his disappointment in losing a deity, but without the principles behind it...
Lacking belief in any gods requires principles? That's new to me.
Its new because you weren't an atheist I suspect.
It requires a principled stance to not claim deities whenever anything slightly out of the normal, or a need for comfort comes at you in life.
"I was an atheist, then someone close to me died, so now I believe because I can't think of them just disappearing". That mindset...comfort over logic.
I am not saying don't grow spiritually...hell, part of the great aspects of life is the exploration of your personal connection into this universe...what muse you pick, one things you contemplate on, exploration of things outside of your understanding..makes life worthwile frankly. You didn't chose that. You chose a clearly unproven set of rules on supernatural aspects..you decided to trade in your personal spiritual exploration in favor of convenient answers other people gave.
Religion is for people whom need comfort, or simply don't want to live in a complex universe...easier to label everything a deity verses learn stuff.
Paul knew this:
"Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."
Yes....dont speak with people whom disagree with your religion...because you are weak and will fall to it..so best to ignore it verses wake up from the religious stupor.
Anyhow, congrats on your newfound comfort. religion can be like slippers...comfortable to wear, best to be left at home.
Originally posted by shaluach
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Preach your faith (make statements based on what you deem is fact), but don't debate (aka, discuss why its fact).
No. There's a difference between debate and discussion
Felt like addressing this part also:
de·bate/diˈbāt/
Noun:
A formal discussion on a particular topic in a public meeting or legislative assembly, in which opposing arguments are put forward.
Verb:
Argue about (a subject), esp. in a formal manner.
There is no difference.
When you feel your on shaky grounds, you will "feel" its negative...yes, go figure, when you fail at a point that you stand on as a foundation..you will have a negative reaction to it.
I have skimmed through your responses...constantly demanding people are being disrespectful or whatnot...when they aren't.
You stand on toothpicks and dreams. give it a year and you will probably be wiccan. eventually you will approach such matters with a principled mind..or not..your choice.
reply to post by SaturnFX
Give it a rest already. Not everyone believes in the same things as you and you need to just let it go.
Give it a rest already. Not everyone believes in the same things as you and you need to just let it go.
Originally posted by Jaydee055
reply to post by SaturnFX
Give it a rest already. Not everyone believes in the same things as you and you need to just let it go.
People having strange beliefs are fine.
People murdering other people over that belief is not fine.
There are many craters on earth made by people believing stuff others dont...and therefore killing other people.
Religion is dangerous...and ignoring this problem only makes people die and laws change.
I don't have to give it a rest. I am comfortable challenging dangerous beliefs..be it religion, or a pro-pollution policy enacted, lynch mob mentalities, etc.
edit on 25-6-2012 by SaturnFX because: (no reason given)
reply to post by shaluach
Well, for one not into debating, you sure are debating this thread with all who reply. I love to debate, but sadly, a heated debate with someone such as yourself always ends with the religious one getting angry, shouting, and other such emotional outbursts. Question: If your beliefs are so solid, so set in stone, why are you afraid if debating the merits of your beliefs? Not so much in here, but in real life I have debated the merits of my own beliefs many times over, and anger never drove me. Knowledge drives me. I am sorry that you hate me for informing you of things, and for asking you questions. But, it is your own hate, not mine.
Well, for one not into debating, you sure are debating this thread with all who reply. I love to debate, but sadly, a heated debate with someone such as yourself always ends with the religious one getting angry, shouting, and other such emotional outbursts. Question: If your beliefs are so solid, so set in stone, why are you afraid if debating the merits of your beliefs? Not so much in here, but in real life I have debated the merits of my own beliefs many times over, and anger never drove me. Knowledge drives me. I am sorry that you hate me for informing you of things, and for asking you questions. But, it is your own hate, not mine.
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Its new because you weren't an atheist I suspect.
Ugh. We're back to that again? Once again, another atheist who cannot handle the fact that an atheist would go back to faith has to call me a liar. If you were on my Facebook friend list and saw all of my posts over the past 2 years you'd know better. But you aren't and you don't. So whatever. Nothing more needs to be said to you.
"Newfound comfort"? I thought I was never an atheist. Can't make up your mind? Or are you just taking all stances in hopes you are correct in one of them? Rhetorical question. No need to answer it.
Originally posted by SaturnFX
People having strange beliefs are fine.
People murdering other people over that belief is not fine.
And no one on this thread has killed anyone over their "strange beliefs." So you are stereotyping.
Originally posted by autowrench
reply to post by shaluach
Question: If your beliefs are so solid, so set in stone, why are you afraid if debating the merits of your beliefs? Not so much in here, but in real life I have debated the merits of my own beliefs many times over, and anger never drove me. Knowledge drives me. I am sorry that you hate me for informing you of things, and for asking you questions. But, it is your own hate, not mine.
I'm not "afraid" to debate. Anger doesn't drive me either. I do not "hate" you either. Thanks for throwing false accusations at me. Typical.
reply to post by shaluach
A debate seeks to impart knowledge and convince through argument between selected speakers, and the chief function of the audience is to listen rather than to talk. We do not have many one on one debates in ATS.
The purpose of a discussion is to extract ideas from the audience, whose function is to express those ideas in speech. We do have a great many discussions, this is how we all exchange knowledge and impart wisdom to those who seek it. Intelligent discussion is what made America great, and may quarrels were settled by a good discussion.
Addressed to Joecroft:
Arrogant talk there, friend. Does that mean you are 100% right?
Than why, pray tell, did you bring this to ATS? What did you think would happen? If you wish your truth to be blindly accepted by all, friend, you are in the wrong place.
A debate seeks to impart knowledge and convince through argument between selected speakers, and the chief function of the audience is to listen rather than to talk. We do not have many one on one debates in ATS.
The purpose of a discussion is to extract ideas from the audience, whose function is to express those ideas in speech. We do have a great many discussions, this is how we all exchange knowledge and impart wisdom to those who seek it. Intelligent discussion is what made America great, and may quarrels were settled by a good discussion.
Addressed to Joecroft:
You are 100% wrong.
Arrogant talk there, friend. Does that mean you are 100% right?
As I said before I am done now with you. I refuse to engage with people who behave like you do.
Than why, pray tell, did you bring this to ATS? What did you think would happen? If you wish your truth to be blindly accepted by all, friend, you are in the wrong place.
Originally posted by shaluach
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Its new because you weren't an atheist I suspect.
Ugh. We're back to that again? Once again, another atheist who cannot handle the fact that an atheist would go back to faith has to call me a liar. If you were on my Facebook friend list and saw all of my posts over the past 2 years you'd know better. But you aren't and you don't. So whatever. Nothing more needs to be said to you.
"Newfound comfort"? I thought I was never an atheist. Can't make up your mind? Or are you just taking all stances in hopes you are correct in one of them? Rhetorical question. No need to answer it.
I personally suspect you were an anti-theist..angry at god type thing than an atheist. Lots of people go through a phase..becoming angry and some sort of odd crusader against religion for one reason or another.
You say you were an atheist.
An atheist is simple...no belief in a deity until proof is given.
What -proof- was given? subjective? did God literally appear in front of you? Do you know full well it was an actual creator of the universe verses just some jacktard alien having a laugh even if that is the case? What solid proof do you have (subjectively or objectively)...
If you seen a ghost: Doesn't matter...still doesn't prove a deity
If you seen a higher dimensional creature: Still doesn't prove a deity
Used a ouija board? Still nothing.
I want to see where the critical thinking comes into play that makes a person go from a simple request for proof...to having the proof...
Many people claim they are atheist..then go on about a string of nonsense statements...demanding there is no gods, and no ghosts...then they get some weird ghost experience, and suddenly believe in a deity. Many simply don't know what an atheist is, so use it as a blanket statement of simple demand that they want to see something weird...problem is, when they get that, they set up such a poor foundation that they will then believe in anything.
So...what did you see? What proof do you have to back up your claim as an atheist and justification towards now believing in a deity.
It would appear that Intelligence and Analytical thinking have people get down to reality, as their religion beliefs tone down:
It appears there is even a teaching Wiki these days for how to handle the fantasy god issues:
I wonder how the god promoters here will do with critical thinking, logic, analytical thinking applied to religion?
Could it be the biggest believers are the worst thinkers?
So, their solution is preach, because they can't debate?
Could it be that studies like this one totally make their beliefs look a lot flawed, so their rule is ignorance?
www.medicalnewstoday.com...
Analytical Thinking Undermines Faith In God, Even Among Devout People
People who have undergone analytical thinking are more likely to have decreased religious belief, researchers from the University of British Columbia reported in the journal Science. The authors added that even among devout believers, after a period of analytical thinking religious belief appeared to go down.
It appears there is even a teaching Wiki these days for how to handle the fantasy god issues:
www.wikihow.com...
How to Argue That God Does Not Exist
Use simple logic.
Christians believe their God is omniscient and knows everything, including everything that has happened and will happen, as well as every thought your mind creates before you think it. If that's the case, there is no "free will."They also believe their God is omnipotent, and can do anything. Problem is, if their God can do anything but doesn't lift a finger to stop all the disasters, massacres and wars that have happened, are happening now and will happen in the future, their God is also a psychopath who enjoys watching our misery.[3]However, if the Christian God is not omniscient or omnipotent... well, in that case their God is not a "god" and doesn't exist.
I wonder how the god promoters here will do with critical thinking, logic, analytical thinking applied to religion?
Could it be the biggest believers are the worst thinkers?
So, their solution is preach, because they can't debate?
Could it be that studies like this one totally make their beliefs look a lot flawed, so their rule is ignorance?
www.bbc.co.uk...
The Destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah
edit on 25-6-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Let the wringing of hands begin, and sweat on the brow give up their doubts
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Originally posted by Jaydee055
reply to post by SaturnFX
Give it a rest already. Not everyone believes in the same things as you and you need to just let it go.
People having strange beliefs are fine.
People murdering other people over that belief is not fine.
There are many craters on earth made by people believing stuff others dont...and therefore killing other people.
)
Fair enough Ms. Rational Logic and whatnot.
Last week I killed three mice. These mice were quite unpleasant to my existence here one this earth. You have also become quite unpleasant to my existence.
Here's the problem with atheism, or at least my problem with it. I could kill you, your family, your children ( if applicable ) , your pets and whatever else you hold dear and it would not matter. In the grand scheme of things we aren't even the equivalent of a grain of dust within the solar system. I could do whatever I please and in the end it would be as if it never happened.
All of our science, our advancement, EVERYTHING, would equate to exactly nothing.
If you're okay with that, than why should it matter to me? It doesn't. I simply want you to know the horror that mass atheism would bring on this world.
Originally posted by shaluach
Originally posted by SaturnFX
People having strange beliefs are fine.
People murdering other people over that belief is not fine.
And no one on this thread has killed anyone over their "strange beliefs." So you are stereotyping.
Not in this thread..yet.
But we have had people on ATS now in prison for attempted murder...Jared Loughner (erad3 on here) made news by shooting a congresswoman in the face some months bad. Yes, bad and dangerous ideas and mental illness effects people. Perhaps calling out the ideas won't stop the danger, but it may be a identification for others teetering on dangerous thinking to avoid it.
I suspect your major issue in not wanting to debate is because your past...because one of two aspects are present..Either you were insulting and venomous without much sense and you don't want to feel the insults you gave others...or you made lots of sense to those you debated, and you have no answers for still, so you don't want to be put in a position to answer what you know is indeed a big flaw. If its the former, thats fine...jerks should be ignored until they phrase their questions into a more neutral aspect..but if its the other, then your disingenuous of yourself and you are purposefully spreading ignorance and arguably mental illness.
Originally posted by SaturnFX
An atheist is simple...no belief in a deity until proof is given.
I don't have any verifiable evidence to provide to you. It was multiple personal experiences. I know those kind of things don't "count" to people like you. I can hear you saying, as I said so many times during my atheist delusion, "Personal anecdotes aren't evidence." So nothing I can say about my conversion experience will be good enough for you.
If I'm wrong I'd be surprised.
Saturn,
Oh. I missed where he did that in the name of God. Oh, that's right. He didn't.
Oh. I missed where he did that in the name of God. Oh, that's right. He didn't.
edit on 6/25/12 by shaluach because: (no reason
given)
edit on 6/25/12 by shaluach because: (no reason given)
Originally posted by Jaydee055
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Fair enough Ms. Rational Logic and whatnot.
Last week I killed three mice. These mice were quite unpleasant to my existence here one this earth. You have also become quite unpleasant to my existence.
Here's the problem with atheism, or at least my problem with it. I could kill you, your family, your children ( if applicable ) , your pets and whatever else you hold dear and it would not matter. In the grand scheme of things we aren't even the equivalent of a grain of dust within the solar system. I could do whatever I please and in the end it would be as if it never happened.
All of our science, our advancement, EVERYTHING, would equate to exactly nothing.
If you're okay with that, than why should it matter to me? It doesn't. I simply want you to know the horror that mass atheism would bring on this world.
That is not a problem with atheism, that is a simple realization.
Why do you personally need a deity in order to be a good person..your saying since you have a god, it contains you from being evil
By that example, you then say if you didn't have the belief of a deity, you would be evil
I would then say you are in fact evil..your heart and mind is evil...
I don't have a deity...I do not kill people...I am more worthy than you are of the eternal reward then you are...
You suggest my view is dismal...but if your viewpoint is right...I reckon I have a much higher chance of being let into heaven than you do.
Now
Why dont I kill people who annoys me? Simple..because they have life..and life is the one thing I want for myself...therefore the best way to keep it is to not harm others if possible...
The death sentence for murder would quickly remove my life..the one thing I know for certain I have.
But anyhow, what does that philosophy have to do with a deity anyhow? I am actually quite open to the idea of continued existance after body death. I don't understand the mechanics...but I have had experiences that lead me to consider things.
Land does not require a king to have people...afterlife doesn't require a deity to have existence of other lifeforms..I am unsure..but open...
Name a big religion of today that doesn't have loads of instructions to murder one another put in black and white in their holy books. Here is the difference then. If I murder someone whom annoys me, I am a murderer...if you do it, you are a martyr.
Originally posted by SaturnFX
That is not a problem with atheism, that is a simple realization.
Why do you personally need a deity in order to be a good person
Why do you need societal laws to be a good person? See the problem with atheism comes down to morality, an argument I used often in my time as an atheist. (I know, I know. You don't think I was one.)
But my argument back then when presented with the morality problem was that an atheists morals came from the same place as a theists: from society. The only difference was the theist is basing their morality on an ancient society that was (in my view then) primitive and ignorant.
But now I see that if an atheist wants to argue that morality is based upon society then morality is 100% subjective and can change on a whim, based on the way society moves. If 1000 years from now, society deems something that we now see as immoral or illegal as legal then who is to argue otherwise? It basically leaves the door open for anything.
With atheism there is no absolute morality. Anything can become moral/immoral or legal/illegal if the society deems it so.
reply to post by Joecroft
This entire thread is proof that what the OP is saying is 100% true. It contains a level of wisdom that could only come from God himself.
Now that you have provided us with 6 pages of "pointless debate". I would like you to read the OP again and receive the message.
If it still doesn't sink in, reply to this post and I will offer further proof.
This entire thread is proof that what the OP is saying is 100% true. It contains a level of wisdom that could only come from God himself.
Now that you have provided us with 6 pages of "pointless debate". I would like you to read the OP again and receive the message.
If it still doesn't sink in, reply to this post and I will offer further proof.
Originally posted by shaluach
Originally posted by SaturnFX
An atheist is simple...no belief in a deity until proof is given.
I don't have any verifiable evidence to provide to you. It was multiple personal experiences. I know those kind of things don't "count" to people like you. I can hear you saying, as I said so many times during my atheist delusion, "Personal anecdotes aren't evidence." So nothing I can say about my conversion experience will be good enough for you.
If I'm wrong I'd be surprised.
Ya, see, you were a terrible atheist.
personal anecdotes -are- evidence..to you anyhow.
No, you can't sell me on your personal experiences, but it would explain your views on it.
If someone says they were abducted by aliens, that won't make me an alien believer..but if they truely believe they were, then I can understand how they now believe in aliens..or at least have a strong suspicion after their subjective experience.
More personal to me...I believe (hate that word) in ghosts. I don't know what ghosts are mind you..using it as just a description of what I experienced moreso than the implication..but ya..I have had a few genuine ghostly experiences.
Does this mean its evidence that others should listen to? no...I could be delusional, slipped drugs, or simply lying for who knows what reason..and I wouldn't try to prove ghosts exist to others by using that...but if someone asked me what I thought of on the subject. I would give my experiences, and then say..because of this, I believe there is ghosts..but I am certainly open to what a ghost may be...and I wont sweat if people don't believe me...but I would like their alternative theories anyhow.
So ya..don't think you know my brain...you don't know how the mind of an atheist works..you know how the mind of a lawyer works...you were trying to win debates...proper atheists are seeking out the truth. You probably never concerned yourself with that..not then, not now.
Originally posted by SaturnFX
Land does not require a king to have people...afterlife doesn't require a deity to have existence of other lifeforms..I am unsure..but open...
Name a big religion of today that doesn't have loads of instructions to murder one another put in black and white in their holy books. Here is the difference then. If I murder someone whom annoys me, I am a murderer...if you do it, you are a martyr.
Your openness to the possibility of an afterlife leads me to believe that you are indeed an open minded individual as opposed to many atheists that I have encountered in the past. I applaud you ma'am.
As for religion, I can't stand it myself. Yes, I believe in a deity of great power. No, I do not believe everything within the bible, or any other holy works for that matter. I believe that what we were given is a basic guideline of how to live our lives. Treat others as you would have them treat you and so on. Afterall, the bible was written by imperfect humans, and humans will use a text of great significance to further their agenda.
The message is there however.
edit on 25-6-2012 by Jaydee055 because: (no reason given)