Christians, preach the Gospel. Do not debate.

reply to post by Sinny

And yet it is the athiests that ask more questions to understand this God, and the followers that dismiss them.

Not all of them.

No one knows everything, but a lot of human beings in general are embarrassed to admit they don't know something. And that is a real shame, because the first step to knowing is admitting one does not know.

TheRedneck

Originally posted by shaluach
reply to post by Sinny

 

No, Sinny. Magnum is quoting non-Scriptural books. Those "Essene" texts contradict the message of Christ. Even the quotation he posted goes against what Christ said concerning the law.

One must define what the typical meaning of "Scriptural" Books really means. It means they cherry picked books of the old narratives that were best suited for the Roman political purposes to merge Jesus and Pagans to settle down some of the fighting. It also means books that were tampered with a false messages inserted like the extra fake Trinity words in John.

When one uses the excuse of "non-scriptual" it means they don't want to look at all the tons of other historical information from those times and earlier that were often more valid and shown more of the truth of these religion factors than the Roman political goals product.

Non-Scriptual means I don't want to read anything else except what Rome programmed me to read. It means I only know this one book, and shun all other knowledge.

Such an excuse for illitarcay and failings to know the deeper issues for religion and god makes one dead of the word, the way, and knowing that which was Jesus.

Such tunnel vision is easy to discount as just a highly illiterate opinion derived from an old political goal, rather than one more akin to truth and highest knowledge.


Folks that can't read the old Sumerian Tablets that explain the times of the City of Ur, Abraham and the Creator gods fall well short of the mark of understanding the explanations in Genesis. Folks that don't study the issues for the Essene, the Therapute of Egypt, and the times of the Essene in the Vinyard of the gods at Mt. Carmel simply cannot know Jesus' teachings nor the way that he hoped to explain.

Such limited study of religion usually means extremely lacking insights as to the real issues.

reply to post by shaluach


Your op is a fabrication, read my first post because I could spend all day picking it apart, the reason why you ask? Well that's simple, there was very little truth in it. This incenses me when people are loose with the truth.

You better get used to ignoring people because your faith is a relic, long bereft of honor or dignity. And anyone who peddles in it better get a thick skin, because the truths are coming and those with open minded can embrace it.


I am utterly grateful you are choosing to ignore me, that I consider a gift from the gods!

reply to post by shaluach

Originally posted by Shaluach
Personally, I think the line between debate and discussion is very clear

Originally posted by Joecroft

Really…

Well, could you explain to me the difference between the 2, in your own words…?

The thing is, I don’t really see the difference between the 2. You can be discussing something with a friend, for example, and as soon as you both disagree about an element of the discussion, it automatically becomes a debate. But this IMO, is all part and parcel, of discussing anything regardless of the topic; and just because 2 people disagree about something, doesn’t mean they can’t have a friendly discussion/debate, where both sides put his/her point across.

Am I right in thinking your not going to answer my question above, because you consider it a form of debate?

Originally posted by Shaluach
Like I said, I believe that based on the evidence debating is unscriptural.

Where in the bible does it say that debating is wrong?

And as I have already pointed out in my first post, it clearly states in 1 Peter 3:15, that believers should defend and stand up for their own faith/beliefs, before others.


Here’s the verse again….

1 Peter 3:15

But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

- JC

Originally posted by Joecroft


Am I right in thinking your not going to answer my question above, because you consider it a form of debate?

No. I already answered that question in another post, a comment to Sinny.

Originally posted by Joecroft
Where in the bible does it say that debating is wrong?

Did you not read the OP?

Originally posted by Joecroft
And as I have already pointed out in my first post, it clearly states in 1 Peter 3:15, that believers should defend and stand up for their own faith/beliefs, before others.

Defending your faith, explaining it, is not the same as pointless debating.

Oh and here's the verse in FULL CONTEXT

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander

As you can see it has nothing to do with debate but instead with explanation. Oh and it also backs up what I was saying about preaching the Gospel not with just words but with your actions and behavior in the OP.

Hehe, I find it a little funny you have 2 off topic posts, sadly I missed them.

I'm off to watch the footy, if I have any more queries ill be sure to email you, thanks, Sin.

reply to post by shaluach

Originally posted by Joecroft
Am I right in thinking your not going to answer my question above, because you consider it a form of debate?

Originally posted by Shaluach
No. I already answered that question in another post, a comment to Sinny.

What???

Why didn’t you just answer my post, directly?

Do you want me to go look for it?

And is that a “no”, your not going to answer it, because you consider it a form of debate?

Originally posted by Shaluach
Did you not read the OP?

Yeah I read it, but I disagree with your take, on debate vs discussion.

Originally posted by Shaluach
Defending your faith, explaining it, is not the same as pointless debating.

Debate and discussion, are one and the same thing!

And just to add, debating isn’t pointless…IMO

Originally posted by Shaluach
Oh and here's the verse in FULL CONTEXT

15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander


As you can see it has nothing to do with debate but instead with explanation. Oh and it also backs up what I was saying about preaching the Gospel not with just words but with your actions and behavior in the OP

But one leads to the other, regardless of context!

Giving an answer means to explain, to explain means to get into a debate/discussion, especially if someone disagrees with you, but like I said in one of my other posts, this disagreeing doesn’t have to be hostile or negative one.

And now that I’m on the subject, I’m starting to detect a hostile tone in your responses, with replies like….


“No. I already answered that question in another post, a comment to Sinny.”

And…


“Did you not read the OP?”


And…


“Oh and here's the verse in FULL CONTEXT”



- JC

Originally posted by Germanicus
reply to post by shaluach

 

"And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet. Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."

That actually sounds kind of mean. It is saying, 'if they wont listen, do not waste time on them because you will have the last laugh when they are burning in hell'.

I wonder why the bible is so mean and scary? I grew up catholic and I had so many complexes from the terrifying stuff that was implanted into my brain. It was the worst thing about my childhood.

I find it offensive that christians 'preach'. And I am not the only one. The word 'preach' did not always have negative connotations.

Would it really be so hard to just leave everyone alone and stop trying to scare the hell out of people?

Christian faith can be extreamly spiritual, happy, loving and harmonious but can also be the opposite egoistic, smallminded and excluding for the ones who the practitioners say do not fit in. Was it not one of the deciples that had the same problem with eternal hell and discussed it with Jesus in one of the text that was not allowed in the bible? I think the story about was that hell should be used as a whip to do good but the whip in that form have in fact never existed. Even Jesus sometimes bends the thruth to the ones who are not ready for the whole picture from my point of view. If you like Jesus way of saying the message go with Jesus. If you are more comfortable with buddha the listen to that view of the message. It is still the same source and god knows what is within everybody so you cannot hide your true self behind your egos/minds views of god.

Right this moment I am thinking of god as a little cat that I am sending happy thoughts too while thinking about petting him. I wonder if he dislike or like that image of him? He created my imagination and my thoughts for a reason to be had at exact this moment. Enjoy the ride and try to be happy. Being loving and happy is the greatest gift you can give god.

Originally posted by MagnumOpus
Those that relish being dead of Christ keep quotations of gospel, for that they don't know Jesus' way in the slightest.

www.thetruthseeker.co.uk...


And Jesus answered: “Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your cars, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of
the hands of men?”

edit on 24-6-2012 by MagnumOpus because: Christians dead of the way

Thank you for the message. Very true from my experiance of god/other side also. And many people have no clue to what being truely alive feels like because their body is still sleeping. I had no idea myself for a long time what being realy alive was like but that can be since I spent 25 years more or less in fear of getting abused or half depressed state. This is one hell of a sick world from my point of view.

It's often very tempting to engage in debate with atheists, especially as someone who uses the Internet a lot. Basically any article, video, etc... that even so much as mentions God, even briefly, always has somebody derping out in the comments about it. It's pretty frustrating, and honestly it doesn't accomplish anything other than breed resentment.

Originally posted by shaluach
reply to post by Sinny

 

No, Sinny. Magnum is quoting non-Scriptural books. Those "Essene" texts contradict the message of Christ. Even the quotation he posted goes against what Christ said concerning the law.

You are right that the text is qounter what some things that is written in the bible that shows the corruption in the bible. Clearly part of the bible was written so that you should not seek out god himself and get answer but belive in things written in a book by humans not god above own experiance of the contrary. Humans that seem to be corrupted by ego that means they are in fact of the antichristian movement. Christians who belive the book over other people have always killed the people in oposition who can find the thruth within them and recive the holy spirit. In the beginning you where not even allowed to be able to read the bible so that the church had the power over the common people.

I do not say people do not get home thru the Christian faith but it is harder since it has traps leading in the wrong direction from my point of view. But if this road is your road then you should walk it but others will find their way home in other views. All roads lead home in the end. The direction/view/religon you come from is not important.

Originally posted by shaluach
Sinny,

Absolutely He knew. He is all-knowing. And my "we may be worse off without the temptation" was merely in response to your posing that. It is possible we would be worse off had that not happened. For one thing, we may be mindless servants (like the angels). I don't really know. But it is possible.

Yes, the Most High is "confusing." This is the problem with humanity. We want everything to be simple. The Most High is extremely complex, and people, especially Christians, trying to make him simplistic and easy to understand is a big problem, IMO. I actually plan on writing something about that subject in the future.

I don't know why the Most High "killed" in the past. Again, complex. Even the Scriptures attest to that fact.

8“For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” declares the Lord. 9“As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."

- Isaiah 55

No, he made us a certain way and then we rebelled.

Discussion is designed to respectfully exchange ideas and possibly reach a mutual understanding. Debate is for nothing more than feeding the ego and attempting to discredit one's viewpoint.

You are making it to hard on yourself. You cannot go wrong with loving your neighbours and trying to create eqaulity and harmony. If you wanna understand I would suggest you to start seeking sychronicity instead but I could be wrong since I do not know how you are supposed to evolve. When you are ready the teachers will apear in one way or another.

See the bible as a book written by people trying to explain spiritual things that happened to them that they do not 100% have the wisdom to explain. I think god made the different religons/views of him splitt up for a reason. Do not the mystics who really seek the understanding of the thing behind religon become more like each other than the ones who do not seek deeply?

Originally posted by Sinny
reply to post by shaluach

 

Thanks for your description on the debate/discussion thing.

Your God also has an ego, is it not a crime in his eyes to adore other idols?
Is it true your God shall punish me by hell for not taking his word on everything, I for one cannot trust a God I do not understand (apparently he does not want us to understand), and for finding him highly hypocrytical.

Thout shall not kill... Apart from me.
Thout shall not know... Apart from me etc etc.

How can you condone his murderous rampages, if you do not understand him and his reasons?

How can you believe in a book that was wrote at the hands of man? Do we not all know that history is written by the victor, and therefore is largely untrue? Can't the same be said for the bible?
You also say that you agree, to an extent, that Cristianity is a fabrication, a tool.

So how can you believe in it at all?

How do you view God? A man? An entity? White, black? Beared or clean shaven?

I'm probley bugging you, but I am curious.

edit on 24-6-2012 by Sinny because: (no reason given)

edit on 24-6-2012 by Sinny because: typo

Sinny your mind is so sharp it is a joy to read your questions. If you continue like this there is no limit to what you can understand. I wonder if the next generation of souls that will be sent will all be like you. Knowing within to much to ever belive the conditioning from human society. It fills me with hope that this planet in the end will be fixed and harmony restored. Thank you for existing.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21

Originally posted by Sinny

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
reply to post by shaluach

 

Thanks for the reminder. As a former atheist myself, I can relate to your testimony and the experiences of Paul. Also, God reminded me of something today.

Proverbs 18:2

"Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions."

And yet it is the athiests that ask more questions to understand this God, and the followers that dismiss them.

More hypocrisy.

I'm not sure what you're on about, but following Christ has produced some amazing results in my life. I'm more curious now about God and the world around me than I ever was when I couldn't own up to the fact that I was a sinner myself.

I am happy for you. If you have wierd things happen to you that you cannot explain message me and I might be able to at least try to give you some explanation. Enjoy the ride. Love a soulbrother.

reply to post by shaluach

So, let me get this straight. As a Christian, you are saying not to ever debate, just preach what you think is the truth. Even if someone has new information on your belief, you are still not supposed to discuss it, but just go on preaching. Is that right? This sounds like Blind Faith to me. Without intelligent debate, how do you know you are telling the truth?

This reminds me of what I had pounded into my head as a child. Never question, just believe. I didn't buy into that then, and will not buy into it now.

The world has moved well beyond the issues of "not to reason why, but to do or die". One will not find the little church atmosphere on ATS that just takes things on blind faith from the organized church typical mantra.

All the people, that some call Athiests, all believe in Mother Nature and the tangeble world of science that surrounds them, those are real people that study god's ways. The theme of god is the natural world that surrounds us all and the petty attempts at name calling for those that recognize the Universe, the Natural Order, do know the issues of god far better than those that embellish the story beyong simple reality.

What the organized church attempts to defame as athiests are really the ones that won't buy the embellished brain wash methods of religion that goes beyond the test of reality.

Some quotations from famous folks speak to the reason of critical thinking, reason, study of all sources to find that which is the most literal of truths and not the personified embellishments for false ideals/Idols that are not god.

"Faith... must be enforced by reason... when faith becomes blind it dies."


"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear."


"Errors of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

The reasons for the name calling from the organized churches, even to the point of non-scriptual text name calling, exists is they cannot offer up reasoned proof of these embellisments of religion. They can only quote from One Book, that does not bear up to be the sole knowledge of mankind through the ages.

reply to post by shaluach


Thank you for your wise counsel and the scriptural support for it.

I have been tempted away from simply presenting Christ to others, into debate and it has never changed anyone's mind as far as I know.

I just need to put Him first and not be so much into me.

reply to post by Germanicus


If I may reply, the verse that was posted was probably there for the protection of the Christian more than as a mean thing.

For the majority of cultures and for most of history after Christ, Christians have been heavily persecuted (sometimes even by their own).

I would see the verse as a warning about how unwise it is to "push things".

And Christians should not be happy that there will be torment for those that reject the source of goodness and love. It is precisely why Christians refer to this as "saving" the other person.

To a true Christian, this is a life and death struggle.

Originally posted by DarkKnight21
Also, God reminded me of something today.

Proverbs 18:2

"Fools have no interest in understanding; they only want to air their own opinions."

A vague verse that implies what? When it comes to religion, opinions are all there is. Those who debate or deny Christianity are fools? Many of us are constantly seeking understanding, and ironically it's far from easy trying to understand a God who's two-faced & tyrannical.

In what manner of understanding does love entail eternal torture for the non-believers? In what manner does is mean holding fear over every human's head, that's lived pondered & suffered? That's more like the epitome of intolerance & un-empathetic beyond belief.

As I'm trying to understand what it means to be a meta-cognitive mind in an organic machine, and what possibly there is before/after death; I'm inclined to think we all have a "spirit". I also do believe God may exist in some form, but I doubt it's the jealous egocentric type portrayed in Biblical scripture; you know the one that holds your love for ransom.