The Crucifixion: A Medical Perspective

reply to post by NOTurTypical

No, you needed Wikipedia and a book you just bought to realize his name was Roman name, anyone who has taken a NT Survey class will tell you the man's last name was Josephus.

Sorry that you have no time to get the facts straight, by reading books and reading Wikipedia.
You should not criticize me for my ability of ordinary reading comprehension.
You seem satisfied with your fuzzy memory of what someone told you long ago, to launch into one of your humiliation campaigns.

Pliny Titus friend was writing to him telling him about the Christians he was persecuting.

You have a confused understanding of history. Pliny the Elder was friends with Vespasian. The one who wrote about "Christians" was Pliny the Younger, who was writing to Trajan.

Who were these "Christians" he was persecuting who were singing hymns to Christ as if some God, if He was an invention at the time of Titus?

The Pliny you are thinking of was not born until 61 A.D. He was writing letters to the then Emperor, who reigned from 28 January 98 – 9 August 117. en.wikipedia.org...

Silliness dude, quit reading books from nutjobs who fail the historical facts in absurd manners.

Your version of history fails.

Josephus was born in 37 AD, Jesus died in 32 AD. He wasn't even born yet when Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus for burial.

No one is saying Josephus was there. The theory of Atwill's is that the book was written after the campaign of Titus, telling a story of Jesus that fit with actual events from Titus, as a work of fiction. That may be your problem, is failing to comprehend the concept of fiction.

Joh 19:1 Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged [flogged] him.

Pilot himself. did the flogging.

Joh 19:2 And the soldiers platted [twisted together] a crown of thorns, and put it on his [Jesus'] head, and they put on him a purple robe,

Joh 19:3 And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote [struck] him [Jesus] with their hands.

Joh 19:4 Pilate therefore went forth again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him [Jesus] forth to you, that ye may know that I find no fault in him [Jesus].

Joh 19:5 Then came Jesus forth, wearing the crown of thorns, and the purple robe. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold the man!

Pilot hoped that this would have been enough. He had already been warned by his wife not allow the killing of Jesus.

Joh 19:6 When the chief priests therefore and officers saw him [Jesus], they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him. Pilate saith unto them, Take ye him, and crucify him: for I find no fault in him [Jesus].

Pilot basically says to the Jews, "you do it then."

Joh 19:12 And from thenceforth Pilate sought to release him [Jesus]: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou let this man go, thou art not Caesar's friend: whosoever maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar.

Joh 19:13 When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.

Joh 19:14 And it was the preparation [day] of the passover [passover day followed by the 7-day feast of unleavened bread], and about the sixth hour [of daylight, about noon]: and he [Pilate] saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!

It was already noon! Jesus hadn't been crucified yet.

Joh 19:16 Then delivered he [Pilate] him [Jesus] therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

Joh 19:17 And he [Jesus] bearing [carrying] his [own] cross [,] went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

He was strong enough to carry his own cross. What time was it? Maybe around 1pm?

Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge [sponge] with vinegar, and put it upon [a] hyssop [stalk], and put it to his [Jesus] mouth.

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Wow! That was fast, what was in the vinegar? What time is it now? 3pm? Jesus was only up there for around 2 hours, before he passed out.

We don't really know how long it took Joseph to take Jesus down. But we do know that he was up and about a couple of days later.

reply to post by jmdewey60

as a work of fiction.

So what is left of your Bible now? What books are Dewey-approved and sanctioned? What is stopping you from going all-out Agnostic like Dr. Ehrman already did?

Just throw out the whole thing, give it up.

reply to post by windword

Pilot himself. did the flogging.

No, that's silly. Read the other gospel accounts. He was scourged by the praetorian guard in the common hall.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

"gave up the ghost" = vernacular for "gave up the spirit/died". "Vinegar" is just wine that has turned This was at the 9th hour of the day, and at "even time" the Jews went to ask Pilate if they could have the legs broken to hasten death and bury the men before Passover began. These same Jews (High priest and his cohorts) that were begging and pleading with Pilate to have Him crucified hours earlier.

From the 9th hour till "even time" was 3 hours. (3pm till 6pm)

Then the spear was thrust into His chest cavity. The Man hung motionless in the slumped position for 3 hours then had a spear thrust into His chest. So He had no way of breathing without pushing off the foot nails for 3 hours then had a spear thrust into His side. No amount of aloe or 1st century Preparation H could save the man from that.

He was strong enough to carry his own cross.

First of all condemned men only carried the crossbeam (cross is short for the crossbeam = 80-110 lbs), the upright part was just a cut-down tree/pole with the branches cut off, the crossbeam was affixed at the site of the crucifixion. and secondly, Christ didn't make it too far with that, Simon of Cyrene carried the cross the rest of the way to Golgotha.

Here is a good read I just discovered.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Just throw out the whole thing, give it up.

Ehrman did not become agnostic over the Bible.
He did for the exact same reason most people do:
The question of suffering.
I am not advocating anything based on a single book.
Obviously I don't agree 100% with anyone, so have to create my own synthesis, which I would recommend everyone to do, and not to follow cults which force an all-or-nothing approach.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

Just throw out the whole thing, give it up.

Ehrman did not become agnostic over the Bible.
He did for the exact same reason most people do:
The question of suffering.
I am not advocating anything based on a single book.
Obviously I don't agree 100% with anyone, so have to create my own synthesis, which I would recommend everyone to do, and not to follow cults which force an all-or-nothing approach.

That's not what he said in his "debate" with William Lane Craig.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That's not what he said in his "debate" with William Lane Craig.

Fresh Air interview of Ehrman on NPR, on book, Jesus Interrupted.
www.npr.org...
Listen to this podcast.

reply to post by jmdewey60

“My personal opinion is that it's very hard to have the view of the Bible's inerrancy once you know the facts about the history of the Bible. When I talk about the hundreds and thousands of differences, it's true that a lot are insignificant. But it's also true that a lot are highly significant for interpreting the Bible. Depending on which manuscript you read, the meaning is changed significantly.”

“The more I studied the manuscript tradition of the New Testament, the more I realized just how radically the text had been altered over the years at the hands of scribes, who were not only conserving scripture but also changing it. ”

“My faith -- based on the inspired words of the Bible -- came under assault. That was especially true when I realized that in many cases, we don't have the original words. We have copies that were made hundreds of years later -- in most cases, many hundreds of years later. And these copies are all different from one another.”

Question: “What is your religious outlook now?”

Answer: “I’m a happy agnostic.”

Dr. Bart Ehrman

HERE .

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

That's not what he said in his "debate" with William Lane Craig.

Fresh Air interview of Ehrman on NPR, on book, Jesus Interrupted.
www.npr.org...
Listen to this podcast.

Naaa, read his words in the above post. Maybe he's telling different stories?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by windword

 

Pilot himself. did the flogging.

No, that's silly. Read the other gospel accounts. He was scourged by the praetorian guard in the common hall.

Show me, in scripture. Both accounts, Matthew and John say that Pilot did the scourging himself.

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

"gave up the ghost" = vernacular for "gave up the spirit/died". "Vinegar" is just wine that has turned This was at the 9th hour of the day, and at "even time" the Jews went to ask Pilate if they could have the legs broken to hasten death and bury the men before Passover began. These same Jews (High priest and his cohorts) that were begging and pleading with Pilate to have Him crucified hours earlier.

From the 9th hour till "even time" was 3 hours. (3pm till 6pm)

Then the spear was thrust into His chest cavity. The Man hung motionless in the slumped position for 3 hours then had a spear thrust into His chest. So He had no way of breathing without pushing off the foot nails for 3 hours then had a spear thrust into His side. No amount of aloe or 1st century Preparation H could save the man from that.

The spear WAS NOT thrust into his "chest cavity." You're making that up. The bible says his right side was pierced, not the heart, not the lungs, not the cheat cavity. We don't know how long Jesus was up there, after he passed out. But he didn't die there, because he was up and walking around a few days later!

He was strong enough to carry his own cross.

First of all condemned men only carried the crossbeam (cross is short for the crossbeam = 80-110 lbs), the upright part was just a cut-down tree/pole with the branches cut off, the crossbeam was affixed at the site of the crucifixion. and secondly, Christ didn't make it too far with that, Simon of Cyrene carried the cross the rest of the way to Golgotha.

AGAIN! Argg!

Joh 19:16 Then delivered he [Pilate] him [Jesus] therefore unto them to be crucified. And they took Jesus, and led him away.

John 19:17 And he [Jesus] bearing [carrying] his [own] cross [,] went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

Whatever, he carried it himself. If he was so injured, and his guts were hanging out, as you have said, he wouldn't have been able to stand, let alone carry his own torture instrument.

Originally posted by windword
Show me, in scripture. Both accounts, Matthew and John say that Pilot did the scourging himself.

So, I found the scripture you were looking for. It's found in Matthew 28:30-31

They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

Either way, you have two contradicting accounts of who scourged Jesus.

reply to post by windword

The spear WAS NOT thrust into his "chest cavity."

How do you think a spear enters the chest cavity? The "water and blood" was the clear fluid and blood that came from the pericardial sac surrounding the man's heart. (OP video, AMA report) The pathologists all say this is tell-tale signs that His death was "asphyxiation exasperated by hypovolemic shock".

Read the medical reports based upon the Biblical record of the events. And Roman governors didn't scourge anyone, that's what the praetorian guard would do, usually performed by two of them and witnessed by an official of the state. Pilate may have been that official, but I doubt he even witnessed that.

Originally posted by novastrike81

Originally posted by windword
Show me, in scripture. Both accounts, Matthew and John say that Pilot did the scourging himself.

So, I found the scripture you were looking for. It's found in Matthew 28:30-31

They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. 31 After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

Either way, you have two contradicting accounts of who scourged Jesus.

Go back to chapter 27, verse 26, you're looking at what happened to Christ after the scourging and after Pilate "washed his hands" and ordered Him to be crucified. He thought the scourging would bring a sympathetic reaction from the crowd. It didn't work,.. they demanded Him dead.

Originally posted by wildtimes
your version of his crucifixion is so outrageously exaggerated that it's preposterous. And you did it again, just in this last nasty retort -- sidestepped the issue of your "Medical Perspective" being skewed and backed up by nothing except an imagined scale of brutality -- and attacked me personally instead!!

The harder you try to throw me off with your superiority, the more lame your attempt is. You have not supported your thesis at all.
I will not say "he died as a result of the crucifixion" until it is proven to me to be true. You can't do that, or even remain civil.

Wild,

You must sense there is another factor behind this need to appear right, even to the point of attacks on others and ignoring the logic.

Look deeper, you know about family and rejection issues. One side of the family is all Masons and they all think as you do here. He attacks you, as he appears to attack them.

Where does the unloved person run for support, but the organized churches that hate Mason't truth seeking and doesn't even mention Essene in the big book.

This is a family issue, which then, with tranferrence, targets you. imho

So, you won't see any reasoning with such a person using the basics of logic. This is purely about getting back at his family life.

Stand your ground and don't get run over with the underlying issues.

reply to post by windword

Whatever, he carried it himself.

The normal practice was the condemned carried the crossbeam, also commonly referred to as the "cross", the crossbeam was affixed to a tree trunk that was cut down with the branches removed. And Simon of Cyrene was ordered to carry the crossbeam up to Golgotha when Christ fell.

And Psalm 22 says "in the midst of my bowels", that's His intestines.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint:
my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


Well, I did. Unless I'm not understanding the verse. Here is what Matthew, Mark, and Luke say:

Matthew 27:26

26 Then he released Barabbas to them. But he had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Mark 15:15-16

Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified. The soldiers led Jesus away into the palace (that is, the Praetorium) and called together the whole company of soldiers.

Luke 23:22

For the third time he spoke to them: “Why? What crime has this man committed? I have found in him no grounds for the death penalty. Therefore I will have him punished and then release him.”

So the first two are clear in saying Pilot flogged Jesus, then turned him over to the soldiers to have him crucified. Lukes account is more vague, so his account isn't worth discussing.



Also, I found the only gospel that mentions Jesus being pierced from John 19:33-34

But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus’ side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

Nowhere does it say his "chest cavity" was pierced. It doesn't even say his right side was pierced.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The spear WAS NOT thrust into his "chest cavity."


How do you think a spear enters the chest cavity? The "water and blood" was the clear fluid and blood that came from the pericardial sac surrounding the man's heart. (OP video, AMA report) The pathologists all say this is tell-tale signs that His death was "asphyxiation exasperated by hypovolemic shock".

There you go again with the assumptions and exaggerations. If the writers of the bible wanted it to say "chest" it would say chest. It does not. It says he was pierced in the side.

I would think that a Roman spear would be large enough break a rib, if it was to pierce the chest, and run into the chest cavity. (Not like the accuracy of a sword) It is claimed the Jesus had no broken bones. Thus, we must assume that the spear hit the fleshy area of his side.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Naaa, read his words in the above post. Maybe he's telling different stories?

Listen to the podcast I linked to and you will realize that when he is saying "faith" in the page you linked to, he meant his fundamentalist "faith", not being a Christian.
If you want the truth, the podcast explains it and he brings up that the answer is in his other book, God's Problem.

God's Problem: How the Bible Fails to Answer Our Most Important Question--Why We Suffer
Why We Suffer

reply to post by NOTurTypical

And Psalm 22 says "in the midst of my bowels", that's His intestines.

14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint:
my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

What has any of this ^ got to do with his side being pierced?

One of the other issues is Islam flatly rejects the Jesus died theme, and supports the he survived theme.

One of the reasons why they would think differently is they knew this old world medicine because they still use it today. It is grown right in their territory and they find all kinds of uses for it, even to the point of being used on diabetes and edema problems.

Modern medicines in the US don't like cures such as Myrrh, as it isn't patent medicine and there isn't a huge profit in the selling of non-patent medicines.

Myrrh isn't well known in the US, so they don't connect with the issues of how Lazarus was healed with Myrrh, as it has long been a treatment for Lepers. But the Middle East knows the story for Lazarus is real similar to the one for Jesus. Neither died, but were both revived with the old world's methods of medicines.

So, in the Middle East they all know the healing power of Myrrh and Frankensense, and how it linked to these old stories of Jesus and Lazarus.

Thus, one would expect that due to their better knowledge of these long used methods to cure people, they have their story correct.

They even know the story of the Roman's want of Myrrh for stab wounds in conflicts, and what were Jesus problems but stab wounds. Small stab wounds at that.


Leaving out these bits of the old world story of using Myrrh for stab wounds is why the Christians in the US are considered to be out of touch with reality and the truth at hand.