Mohammad - a perspective

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Arabs can have the same gift of freedom we do if they follow Yeshua and stop listening to Muhammad. I know it is hard for muslim to accept Yeshua because they are indoctrinated from the cradle,

Except, in your view, God made it rather difficult for Arab muslims or any other muslim to accept Christ, because He let them get born into muslim families.

I mean, if you wont accept Islam by watching an Islamic video or reading a tract, how can you expect muslim arabs to convert to Jesus by reading tracts and watching christian videos? If christianity is indeed true, then christians born in christian societies, have the upper hand over muslims, buddhists, hindus born in non-christian societies.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

If you do not accept Paul then you do not accept Peter, nor do you accept Christ.

No. Rejecting Paul does NOT mean rejecting Jesus.

If I don't accept Paul, its because he comes across as a very shady character.
In fact, I originally learned of Paul's shadiness through christian websites...such as this one

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
No. Rejecting Paul does NOT mean rejecting Jesus.
If I don't accept Paul, its because he comes across as a very shady character.

I fully agree with you sk0rpi0n.
Paul comes across boastful and stand-apart and downright nasty towards the Apostles.
I accept Christ ... Paul on the other hand, not really.
And 'accepting Paul' isn't necessary for salvation according to Christianity.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Arabs can have the same gift of freedom we do if they follow Yeshua and stop listening to Muhammad. I know it is hard for muslim to accept Yeshua because they are indoctrinated from the cradle,

Except, in your view, God made it rather difficult for Arab muslims or any other muslim to accept Christ, because He let them get born into muslim families.

I mean, if you wont accept Islam by watching an Islamic video or reading a tract, how can you expect muslim arabs to convert to Jesus by reading tracts and watching christian videos? If christianity is indeed true, then christians born in christian societies, have the upper hand over muslims, buddhists, hindus born in non-christian societies.

edit on 23-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

edit on 23-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

You never know, there might be one Yeshua reaches using videos or tracts. It starts with knowing he exists. Buddhists and hindus are actually more receptive to Christ than muslim are. The reason why Islam has such a hard time is because the muslim are so indoctrinated and they are heavily hostile to the point they may even kill christian missionaries for even trying to convert them. If you want to blame anyone blame the imams and the clergy type people at the top for being controlling. They take away your choices before you even know you have them. It is easier for people to come to Christ in westernized nations because we have freedom of religion and we do not punish people for jumping ship to something else because it is their right to do.

You have a choice and you have a right to make that choice. Christians that have children, sometimes those children stray and become atheist or agnostic or some other religion in their experimentation but it is their right. Sure we can teach them about Yeshua when they are children but the choice is always theirs to make. Forcing someone to accept Yeshua at the point of a sword will not save them because it was not done willingly. I was agnostic for 14 years and i didn't know if there was a God much less a Yeshua (Jesus) nor did i care even though i had been taught about him all my life i didn't believe until about 1 year and 3 months ago at the age of 32.

If you believe that everything that happens is a result of God's will, then you should be considering how generous it was and is, that God has given Western nations rule over the entire planet.

Obviously then, God greatly favors Europeans and their descendants

You should be then praying towards London, and the Prophet Newton.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Iason321

 

I agree 100% actually,
This is all part of the Masters plan for a reason....
If Islam wasn't around, we wouldn't have all the modern prophecies being fulfilled by Islamic nations and Islamic Extremeist groups,

Im not sure what you mean by the last sentence, because Islam is more than just a pawn for prophecy.
Islam itself was prophecized to emerge in the bible.
Take a look at Isaiah 42.

This particular chapter seems to be addressing the gentiles, i.e- Non-Israelites and is addressing the people of Kedar (a son of Ishmael). It is prophesied that they will be removed from darkness and brought into the "light". These gentiles are given a "light", through a servant of God.... and that idolators would be shamed.


1 "Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles"
Which is exactly what Mohammad did. He brought judgement by changing the way of life for the gentiles in Arabia. If not for Mohammad,that region would have probably still been in idolatory....But through Islam they have turned into strict monotheists who recognize Jesus as the messiah.

4He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
Despite the difficulties he faced from his own people, Mohammad was not discouraged. Instead he returned and was immensely successful in establishing Islam, i.e Abrahamic monotheism in a land where paganism and idolatory was the way of life.

11Let the wilderness and the cities thereof lift up their voice, the villages that Kedar doth inhabit: let the inhabitants of the rock sing, let them shout from the top of the mountains.
This is crucial to understand and answer. Why Kedar? Why the wilderness? These are places most associated with Ishmael, son of Abraham...so this has to refer to a particular group of people... i.e - The people of Kedar

16And I will bring the blind by a way that they knew not; I will lead them in paths that they have not known: I will make darkness light before them, and crooked things straight. These things will I do unto them, and not forsake them..
The blind are those who were living in the spiritual darkness of paganism and idolatory. Who were those people who came out of the darkness, and entered a new life of worshipping the God who chose Abraham?
Answer : The Arabs conquered by Mohammad.

and here is the best part....

17They shall be turned back, they shall be greatly ashamed, that trust in graven images, that say to the molten images, Ye are our gods.
The graven images of the people who will 'be greatly ashamed' ... are the same graven images that Mohammad destroyed. Were not the people who Mohammad conquered ashamed of their "graven images" or idols, before they submitted to the One God?

Bear in mind, this chapter deals with Kedar, the removal of idols, and the redemption of gentiles... through a certain servant. If it is not Mohammad, who else can it be? Which other biblical character utterly vanquished idolatory among the people of Kedar and the "wilderness"?

An honest look at Isaiah 42 shows that Mohammad was indeed guided by God and Islam was intended by God to emerge.

edit on 23-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Isiah mentioned Kedar as an example of the barbarous tribes that the prophet's message would reach. Just compare a map of Arabia that Isiah would've used to a map of Arabia in Mohammad's day:





See how in the 2nd picture the border of Arabia extends from the gulf of Aqaba and the modern city of Elat? While in Isiah's day, the border extends from the city of Suez. Sources also say that Kedar was a land just outside of the land of Israel:

The settlements of Kedar were probably in the Northwest of Arabia, not far from the borders of Israel. Assyrian inscriptions have thrown light upon the history of the tribe. There Kedar is mentioned along with the Arabs and Nebaioth, which decides its identity with Kedar of the Old Testament, and there is found also an account of the conflicts between the tribe and King Assurbanipal

www.bible-history.com...

Mohammad started converting people in Medina, 600 years after Jesus who started preaching in Galilee. Geographically, Kedar closer to the epicenter of Christianity than Islam. History validates Kedar as a land impacted by the death of Christ many years before Mohammad was even born.

That was pretty daring move to use Isiah 42. I mean, you had to leave out ALOT of verses pointing to Jesus. Was that intentional?

reply to post by CaptainNemo


Arabia was right next door to "christian" middle east.
Yet christians failed to establish christianity in Arabia.... a land of polytheism and idolatry. Why??

Why did you allow an Ishmaelite prophet to take over?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Buddhists and hindus are actually more receptive to Christ than muslim are.

I haven't hung around buddhists, but I do know hindus are extremely receptive to Christ....some even accept Jesus as an avatar of God. But....I guess they are being blasphemous, right?

It is easier for people to come to Christ in westernized nations because we have freedom of religion and we do not punish people for jumping ship to something else because it is their right to do.

Yet, its also easier for a child of christians, in westernized nations.....to come away from Jesus because you also have the freedom to insult and mock Jesus.

Christians that have children, sometimes those children stray and become atheist or agnostic or some other religion in their experimentation but it is their right. Sure we can teach them about Yeshua when they are children but the choice is always theirs to make.

Thats because.... by the time children reach the age of understanding religion on their own ... they also understand their "freedom" of choosing or rejecting God.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Christians that have children, sometimes those children stray and become atheist or agnostic or some other religion in their experimentation but it is their right. Sure we can teach them about Yeshua when they are children but the choice is always theirs to make. Forcing someone to accept Yeshua at the point of a sword will not save them because it was not done willingly.

Really...?

Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes
Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

Mohammed and his followers are not dangerous people...

...wait for it, wait for it!

when Jesus unleashes his followers to serve justice then others may want to start worrying

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

Why did you allow an Ishmaelite prophet to take over?

It wasn't up the the Christians to allow it, it was up to God.

Here's what God had to say about Ishmael before he was born:

Genesis 16:11-12

11) And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.

12) And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

So, why do you think that was?

reply to post by Deetermined

Here's what God had to say about Ishmael before he was born:
Genesis 16:11-12

We read THRICE in the bible that Ishmael was blessed.
And also that Ishmael was one of the 6 people in the bible who was given a name by God, before he was born...

oh, and also that God was "with" Ishmael while he was growing up.

Now let's look at Genesis 17:

19) And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him.

20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

21) But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, which Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.

and what about Genesis 21:10-13?

10) Wherefore she said unto Abraham, Cast out this bondwoman and her son: for the son of this bondwoman shall not be heir with my son, even with Isaac.

11 And the thing was very grievous in Abraham's sight because of his son.

12) And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

13) And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed.

So, although God allowed all of Abraham's seed to multiply and make nations, what did God mean in verse 12 when He said, "for in Isaac shall thy seed be called".

Called to do what? Produce Jesus? Called to God?

reply to post by Deetermined


No muslim disputes the fact that Jesus came from Isaacs line. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by CaptainNemo

 

Arabia was right next door to "christian" middle east.
Yet christians failed to establish christianity in Arabia.... a land of polytheism and idolatry. Why??

Why did you allow an Ishmaelite prophet to take over?

There is no such thing as a Christian Middle East. After the death of Christ, Christianity spread along trade routes into Arabia and as far as India. At that point most of the Middle East was Hellenized and a portion of Arabia was conquered by the Assyrians and Persians. However, most of the Beduin tribes of Arabia were Jewish or unorthodox Christians. So in effect, Jesus conquered Arabia long before Mohammad. Isiah's prophecy was thus fulfilled. We might differ here because it seems that your premise is based upon predestination and the idea that God determined everything that will happen, a tenet of the Islamic faith. That in itself invalidates the idea that Mohammad was a prophet of the biblical God for reasons I previously stated.

Many of the tribes in Arabia had practiced Judaism. Christianity is known to have been active in the region before the rise of Islam, especially unorthodox, possibly gnostic forms of it.

en.wikipedia.org...-12

reply to post by CaptainNemo

There is no such thing as a Christian Middle East.

Christianity started in the middle east.

So in effect, Jesus conquered Arabia long before Mohammad. Isiah's prophecy was thus fulfilled.

Yet, idol worship persisted only until Mohammad wiped them out.... which is a point to be considered in Isaiah 42.

Those who worshipped idols were "turned back" and "greatly ashamed" only after Mohammad defeated them.

We might differ here because it seems that your premise is based upon predestination and the idea that God determined everything that will happen, a tenet of the Islamic faith.

No, I'm just going by what the bible says.
(Read above)
Only Mohammad can be credited with ending idolatry and shaming those who called graven images their gods..

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

No muslim disputes the fact that Jesus came from Isaacs line. I don't understand what you are trying to say.

I'm asking your opinion on what you think Genesis 21:12 means:

12) And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

I think "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" is referring to Isaac's seed being that which leads to Jesus. If you take a close look at the Old Testament, the people who are being focused on (like Jacob over Esau) all lead to the lineage of Jesus. So, even in the Old Testament, God was making it known just how important Jesus would be. He wasn't just a man and he wasn't just a prophet. Otherwise, God would have focused on Muhammad's lineage in the Old Testament, but He didn't.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Christians that have children, sometimes those children stray and become atheist or agnostic or some other religion in their experimentation but it is their right. Sure we can teach them about Yeshua when they are children but the choice is always theirs to make. Forcing someone to accept Yeshua at the point of a sword will not save them because it was not done willingly.

Really...?

Prov 13:24: "He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes
Prov 19:18: "Chasten thy son while there is hope, and let not thy soul spare for his crying."
Prov 22:15: "Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him."
Prov 23:13: "Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die."
Prov 23:14: "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Shoel)."
Prov 29:15: "The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame."

edit on 23-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Why are you throwing proverbs at me? Proverbs has nothing to do with accepting Christ it has to do with whipping your kid's ass when theyre being an insolent whelp. These are only applicable to people who do not raise their children and shove them in front of the television or video games as opposed to teaching them life lessons or paying them attention and maybe taking them to a baseball game or throwing pitch and catch with them.

reply to post by Deetermined

I'm asking your opinion on what you think Genesis 21:12 means:

12) And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

I can tell you that God chose Isaac for a special purpose....
but what are you really trying to ask me?

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

Why are you throwing proverbs at me? Proverbs has nothing to do with accepting Christ it has to do with whipping your kid's ass when theyre being an insolent whelp.

Because you said :
"Christians that have children, sometimes those children stray and become atheist or agnostic or some other religion in their experimentation"

You are a christian. I assumed these biblical proverbs about keeping children in line would appeal to you.

These are only applicable to people who do not raise their children and shove them in front of the television or video games as opposed to teaching them life lessons or paying them attention and maybe taking them to a baseball game or throwing pitch and catch with them.

I agree with you on this.