Mohammad - a perspective

reply to post by Freeborn

A slight aside; as an Agnostic I find it quite ironic that you ridicule Paul and his role in the development of Christianity etc yet you are a firm adherent of Islam and it's obsession with Mohammad and his doings....but I guess you won't see that.

I'm not ridiculing "Paul and his role in the development of Christianity".
I'm pointing out to christians who often quote from Paul that the bible itself reveals Paul to be a false apostle.


From your other post

Where is the proof that 'God' allowed Mohammad to do anything? In fact where is the proof that 'God' allowed anyone to do anything. And isn't free will a basic tenet of all Abrahamic faiths?

The premise of this discussion is that God is in control of everything. Im sure Christians will agree with this statement.

Since the questions were directed towards Christians... who perceive Islam as anti-christian and evil, they need to ask themselves why God would allow such a religion to arise in Arabia, instead of establishing Christianity in the 500 year headstart that they had before Islam.

Conversely why did 'God' allow Christianity to prevail in 'the west' whereas regardless of what many would have you believe Islam is still very much a minority religion in Europe, North and South America, China etc?

Actually, Im sure most christians would admit that Christianity does not "prevail" in the west. Its only in the west that you find Christianity under constant attack and ridicule. Christian ideals have been brushed aside to make room for a secular lifestyles permitting filth in movies, television, music...open homosexuality.... the atheist literature constantly ridiculing christianity...comedians making fun of Jesus and the bible... and so on.

But neither will Christians convert to Islam just because it's written in The Koran that Mohammed is a prophet and Islam is the true religion.

They wont.
So the question goes back to christians who believe that Jesus is the only way and such.... if thats indeed true, then why did God make it difficult for muslims to accept Christianity? Thats a question christians need to answer.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


So, why did you skip verses 2 and 3 in Isaiah 42?

2) He will not shout or cry out, or raise his voice in the streets.

3) A bruised reed he will not break, and a smoldering wick he will not snuff out.

Could it be because these two verses alone prove that this chapter isn't talking about Muhammad?

The prophet this chapter was talking about would come in peace.

reply to post by Deetermined

So, why did you skip verses 2 and 3 in Isaiah 42?

Eh? I skipped a bunch of verses from Isaiah 42. I didn't post the whole thing.
You will notice that I posted excerpts that best describe the coming of Mohammad.
Why don't you address those first?

Also tell me, which other biblical character utterly vanquished idolatory among the people of Kedar and the "wilderness"?

It cant be Jesus because he was never concerned with the people of Kedar...or anybody else involved with idolatry.... Secondly, it has to be a fulfilled prophecy, because idolatry has been totally removed from the lands of Kedar (the middle east) for 1500 years now.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n



Agreeing with you there, how ever personal view..

I don't think he was JUST there to wipe idolism and the rest of it, he had his own religion to lead, as did Jesus, and the others.

All religions are a unity, there is no such thing as, ''being punished for being muslim'' ''being punished for being christian'' Or jew.. etc.

It is plain and simple, they all direct their prayers and thanks to the same God. So why would he punish them for believing in him in a different way?

And why should they ever accept Jesus as the lord, when they've accepted god as the lord,and Jesus as one of his messengers.

Muhammad as their prophet, and leader of their faith, never once told or claimed that God has a son, or ever will, he told them there is no equal to god, he has no mother, brother, sister, child...

Infact Jesus never once, himself came close to claiming he was son of god.

So, although I understand the concept here, and I agree he was sent from god for a reason, I disagree that it was solely just for wiping out paganism and other practices.

reply to post by racasan

I used to work with a bunch of Hindus I found them to be very nice, a credit to themselves and their people and I assume a credit to their religion also And Hinduism can be defined as a polytheist idol worshipping religion (as far as I know)

Well, I'm a hindu (not a practising one) and I can tell you that the concept of the supreme God is essentially monotheistic. Sure there's a pantheon of gods and deities who hindus worship as idols... but the average hindu understands that there is just One supreme God. Hinduism is far deeper than what we see in temples and idols and rituals.

So with that in mind I ask again

Why is this:

"Regardless of what people think of Mohammad and Islam, its undisputable that Mohammad utterly changed the face of Arabia. He put an end to the culture of idolatry, polytheism and paganism that prevailed in Arabia.... and established a monotheistic religion that directs all worship to the One true God and recognizes and honors the biblical prophets and Jesus. "

Considered a plus?

Well, again this thread was aimed towards christians who claim to oppose idolatry, worship the One true God and honor the biblical prophets and Jesus. If, instead of Mohammad, a christian prophet had done the same thing in Arabia, Im sure Christians would see it as the will of God... and have nothing to complain about.

reply to post by Mentalistbee

I disagree that it was solely just for wiping out paganism and other practices.

Well wiping out the paganism and idolatry was just the first step in establishing Islam... in ancient Arabia.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n


Here's what really happened to Paul in Ephesus:

We know a good deal about the Ephesian church from the New Testament. Paul's first visit to Ephesus was very brief (Acts 18:19-21). Apollos, too, had been there (Acts 18:24-28) and had an effective ministry, especially as his understanding of the way of God was more accurately explained to him by Priscilla and Aquila (18:26).

When Paul returned to Ephesus, he found a group of disciples who were familiar with John's baptism (probably the result of the teaching of Apollos), but had not yet received baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus (19:1-7). For three months, the apostle Paul taught in the synagogue at Ephesus, followed by two years of teaching in the school of Tyrannus. The result was that many were saved and the gospel was heard throughout Asia (19:8-12).

When the seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, attempted to cast out demons by using Paul's words and were overcome by them, the vast difference between magic and Christianity was demonstrated. Many of the new converts wished to make a complete break with the magic of their pagan past and burned their books publicly, books which were worth 50,000 pieces of silver. As a result, the gospel continued to flourish in Ephesus (19:13-20).

Because of the size and dedication of the Ephesian church it became a threat to the idol-making industry in Ephesus. Led by Demetrius, a silversmith, his trade guild violently opposed Paul and the Ephesian church. An angry mob formed and two of Paul's companions were seized. While some of the Ephesian political officials restrained Paul from going before the hostile mob, the town clerk persuaded the crowd to settle their dispute in the courts, not in the street. Shortly after Paul left for Macedonia (Acts 19:23-20:1).

bible.org...

Also, Paul went to Arabia in Galatians 1.

However, it doesn't say exactly how long or what happened when he was there.

I'm sure he was rejected and moved on.

God must have had a different plan for Arabia.

Maybe it would help too if we defined "apostle".

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Deetermined


It still remains that Paul was rejected by "all in Asia", Ephesus included...
...and the Ephesus church was praised for testing and rejecting false apostles. That tells a lot about who Paul was.

I'm sure he was rejected and moved on.
God must have had a different plan for Arabia.

Im sure there were also christians living in Arabia... but they merely co-existed with the idolators and polytheists.
It was only after Mohammads arrival that the idolaters were "turned back" and "greatly ashamed".

It was only after the establishment of Islam in pagan Arabia that they were "led in paths they had not known" and "darkness was made into light" as Isaiah 42:16 says.

Islam was the plan God had for Arabia. God intended Islam to emerge in Arabia after bringing an end to a thousand years of idolatry.

reply to post by Deetermined

Maybe it would help too if we defined "apostle".

en.wikipedia.org...

...Paul referred to himself as an 'apostle'. (1 Corinthians 9:1, 1 Timothy 1:1 etc)
Yet, he was rejected by Ephesus.

reply to post by sk0rpi0n

I'm not ridiculing "Paul and his role in the development of Christianity".
I'm pointing out to christians who often quote from Paul that the bible itself reveals Paul to be a false apostle.

Perhaps 'ridicule' was the wrong choice of words.

Whether Paul is revealed as a false apostle is very much open to debate and I'm sure most learned Christians would disagree with you, but that's for them to do.

Personally I think Paul and his teachings completely transformed 'Jesus's' own message.

Who did this and why is again open to much debate, a debate that it seems the vast majority of Christians are very reluctant to enter into.....perhaps because they are scared of what they may find out, who knows.

Certainly a topic worthy of it's own thread.

The premise of this discussion is that God is in control of everything. Im sure Christians will agree with this statement.

But that is contrary to one of the most basic Christian beliefs, and as far as I'm aware Islamic belief as well, that 'man' has free will and is in control of his own destiny.
According Christian creed 'man' is judged on Judgement Day in accordance with how he has chosen to live his life etc.

As such 'God' is not in control of everything and things don't happen because 'he' allows them to happen but because of choices people make.

That still fails to explain why so much suffering happens in this world.

Again something most Theists seem reluctant or have difficulty explaining.

Since the questions were directed towards Christians...

Being raised a Christian I retain an interest in such matters, even though I believe them to be ultimately irrelevant and certainly unprovable, and feel I am qualified to answer.

who perceive Islam as anti-christian and evil,

The vast majority of Christians certainly do not perceive Islam and Muslims as evil.

they need to ask themselves why God would allow such a religion to arise in Arabia, instead of establishing Christianity in the 500 year time period that the christians had ahead of Islam.

But it wasn't down to 'God' - it was the result of actions and choices that people made themselves.

Personally I suspect that Arabs would have been reluctant to accept a faith that had it's roots etc outside of their own culture and society.
Mohammed tailored Islam to appeal to Arabs and their culture and society.

Actually, Im sure most christians would admit that Christianity does not "prevailing" in the west.

Whether you or I like it Christian values and standards had a massively influential impact and influence on 'Western' society and culture, a lot of which remains to this day even if people don't realise it....aspects have become ingrained on 'Western' psyche.

Christianity is still by far the largest religion in 'The West'.

Its only in the west that you find Christianity under constant attack and ridicule.

What, so Christians aren't persecuted in numerous places throughout the non-Christian world?

I think you know better.

Christian ideals have been brushed aside to make room for a secular lifestyles permitting filth in movies, television, music...open homosexuality.... the atheist literature constantly ridiculing christianity...comedians making fun of Jesus and the bible... and so on.

Typical Theist attitude......disdain for values that contradict or contravene your own as you wish to impose your own morals and standards on others.

So the question goes back to christians who believe that Jesus is the only way and such.... if thats indeed true, then why did God make it difficult for muslims to accept Christianity?

God didn't make anything difficult, people did.

And maybe that says more about Islam and it's followers than it does Christians and their faith.
Perhaps you should ponder on that?

Thats a question christians need to answer.

Why do they need to answer it?

reply to post by FlyersFan

Why does God do anything that He does? No one understands the mind of God. His ways are not our ways. Why did God allow 'the chosen people' to spend 400 years in bondage in Egypt? Why did He allow other captivities of them? Why did He allow all the martyrs through the ages to suffer so much? Why does he allow Charlie Sheen to have all that money and a healthy body to abuse and yet innocent children to get cancer and die painful early deaths? Why why why?
Just because it's there, doesn't mean it has any truth within it.
Muhammad was a thief and a murderer. this is well documented.
I do not believe his so-called visions happened. Not for a minute.

All those negative examples you stated are NOT the same as an event of a man ending a thousand year culture of polytheism and idolatry and establishing a religion that directs worship to the God of Abraham and reveres Jesus + the prophets.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n

So the question goes back to christians who believe that Jesus is the only way and such.... if thats indeed true, then why did God make it difficult for muslims to accept Christianity? Thats a question christians need to answer.

edit on 23-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

If you had have read Ephesians 1 like I asked, you would see that some people are not welcome to salvation. Now stop the talking and go educate yourself.

Many are called but few are chosen

Jesus invitation isnt to everyone, skorpion stop the rhetoric and go read the verse. Its self explanatory.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n


...Paul referred to himself as an 'apostle'. (1 Corinthians 9:1, 1 Timothy 1:1 etc)
Yet, he was rejected by Ephesus.

edit on 23-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Paul was not a false apostle, the false apostles were the ones rejected, but you know that.

You are just trying to sell your religion that is based on pedophiles murderers and thieves who STILL stone women for being raped.

Good luck with that.

Regardless of what you think of Paul, here's what ALL of the apostles were taught to do by Jesus:

Matthew 28:16-19

16) Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17) And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18) And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19) Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

So, we have Jesus telling all of them to baptize people in the NAME OF the Father, and of the SON, and of the Holy Ghost.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
All those negative examples you stated are NOT the same as an event of a man ending a thousand year culture of polytheism and idolatry and establishing a religion that directs worship to the God of Abraham and reveres Jesus + the prophets.

He was a thief. He was a murderer. He was a liar.
He was a political opportunist who said whatever he needed to gain power.
He made up a religion built on a cracked foundation of lies and murder.
He ordered the assassinations of his political opponents.
Entire civilizations were destroyed by the blood soaked sword of Islam.
Their version of 'God' is twisted and perverse being a misogynistic mess.

That's not hate speech. that's just the truth.
It's historical fact. Nothing good has come from Muhammad.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by lonewolf19792000

 

Lonewolf, you don't like Islam or Mohammad. I've known that for quite some time.
So, if Mohammad was such a bad, bad person why did God, who you call Jesus allow for it to happen?

Wouldn't it have been better if God prevented Mohammad from establishing Islam?
Wouldn't it have been better if God established christianity in Arabia?

Does God want Arabs to perish and so allowed Mohammad to establish what you call a "false religion"?

Also, Arabs are not going to discard a lifetime of being Muslim and suddenly accept Jesus just by watching a Chuck Missler video or reading a tract... so didn't God make it difficult for muslims to accept christianity?

If you really want to know? He was using Islam to achieve a purpose, to refine christianity to be what he wants. The jews were not doing their job, which he appointed for them to be the priests of nations. They broke his covenant and rejected him as their King, so Yeshua found jews who would bear his light to the world, but not every jew would convert. In fact they fought against him and resisted and so he had Paul be the apostle to the gentiles and he gave them the light to bear. The gentiles gods did not give them assurity in the afterlife but Yeshua does.

Christianity needs adversity to flourish, we thrive on persecution. Persecution is what drives us, when we are killed in his name that fuels our fire and when someone says harsh things to us over Christ or does evil things to us it adds stars to our crowns because we suffer for his namesake. We are his sheep, Islam is the shepherd dog.

Does god want arabs to perish? Obviously not, he came to save the world but he also recognized the fact that the entire world would not accept his terms. When the prophets foretold of Yeshua's coming the religious jews murdered them to shut them up, so they could remain in power. It's the same deal with islam.

Arabs can have the same gift of freedom we do if they follow Yeshua and stop listening to Muhammad. I know it is hard for muslim to accept Yeshua because they are indoctrinated from the cradle, just like the religious jews are and this is what Yeshua fights against. The pharisees were the most religiously rigid people of Yeshua's time here, they were so stuck in their ways that they couldn't see their own God standing in front of them and islam is facing the same problem. Ironic is it not that the sons of Isaac and the sons of Ishmael suffer the same problem of being hardheaded? In islam i have heard it said that children are "born muslim", this type of thing takes away any choice they have to find him, except those who are open minded enough to listen to him call their name and they realize that they do have a choice. Some muslim do realize Christ is the true path and they convert. Yeshua does not like pharisees of any type, he preached in parables to keep them from gaining understanding so they couldn't be saved. He judged them and found them wanting and they refused to recieve correction and so he let them go their own way and believe whatever they wanted.

Originally posted by sk0rpi0n
reply to post by Deetermined

 

Maybe it would help too if we defined "apostle".

en.wikipedia.org...

...Paul referred to himself as an 'apostle'. (1 Corinthians 9:1, 1 Timothy 1:1 etc)
Yet, he was rejected by Ephesus.

edit on 23-4-2012 by sk0rpi0n because: (no reason given)

Peter accepted Paul as an apostle. Yeshua gave Simon Peter the keys to the kingdom and the rock he built the church on. If you do not accept Paul then you do not accept Peter, nor do you accept Christ.

Not accepting the writings of Paul also means not accepting the rest of the writings in the New Testament. If you don’t accept Paul, then you can’t accept the Apostle Peter who accepted the writings of Paul as scripture (2 Pet. 3:16), and then certainly not the Gospel of Mark or the writings of John, which Peter accepted (2 Pet. 1:16-21). With Paul’s writings also would go the Gospel of Luke since Luke was with Paul, agreed with Paul, and Paul quoted Luke as scripture (1 Tim. 5:18, Luke 10:7). Setting aside Luke also means setting aside Luke’s book of Acts and the Gospels mentioned in Luke 1:1-3. This leaves only 2 books, James and Jude. Jude closely resembles 2 Peter 2, so that wouldn’t make since to keep that one. James was also an Apostle with Peter and among the 12 (Gal. 1:18-2:10), so James could not be considered. Again, rejecting the writings of Paul means rejecting the whole New Testament. With the New Testament would go all the direct words of Jesus found throughout the Gospels and His other few words in Acts and Revelation. This is not to exclude that all of the New Testament would be Christ’s words through His Spirit. Now, there goes the Christian faith and the foundation of the Apostles and prophets.

Source

reply to post by borntowatch

If you had have read Ephesians 1 like I asked

I've read Ephesians and its proof to me that Paul is a false apostle... and you follow his false teachings.

Jesus invitation isnt to everyone,

It isn't...and Paulianites like yourself never received the invitation. You are only deluded that you follow Jesus... but in reality you follow Paul.

Paul was not a false apostle, the false apostles were the ones rejected, but you know that.

The ephesians of Asia rejected Paul and were applauded for that in revelations.
Yet, you believe Paul was a true apostle.