Rapture vs NONE rapture (dialogue to all christians)

reply to post by jmdewey60

You say the Darby theories existed before Darby but they were not allowed.

There existed more than one arm of Christianity besides the Roman Catholic church and Augustine.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
This is all well and fine but we see in the parable of the 10 that the unwise missed their coming not because they were asleep but because they were out buying more oil.

"Being asleep" and "not being there" are two different images which essentially relate to the same thing, ie "not being ready"
As for what "being ready" actually means in theological terms, I suggest it comes down to having or not having the right saving relationship with Christ. Those whose faith has been "choked" and are no longer believing have ceased to be "ready" in the sense intended.
This is another aspect of the "clothed/naked" contrast that I didn't mention the last time I quoted it. It may also be about having, or not having "put on Christ as a garment", as Paul puts it.

We must not forget that the wise virgins are invited to a wedding supper per verse 10.

I do not disagree with the assessment of correlations between being asleep, not being there, and not being ready although the interpretation of being ready must be made upon what the unwise lack and what spiritual meaning that lack has. Oil is representative of something and by the mere fact that the unwise return with oil, although to a closed door, they do return. Note: Jesus does not reply, "depart from me ye that work iniquity."

It seems odd to correlate the gift of the the receiving of the invitation to the wedding supper to that of John's vision of a great multitude that comes out of great tribulation. It also seems odd that Christ would say the way is straight and narrow is the gate that leadeth unto eternal life and few be there that come in thereat if he were including a great multitude that comes out of great tribulation. There truly seems to be a division here and regardless of personal interpretations of the seven churches, the fact that there are seven with different gifts and sins held against them is all the more evidence that there is in fact a line of division drawn otherwise, spiritually speaking, there would arguably have been only one letter to one church.

Allegorical interpretation of the seven churches is not really a safe guide, on its own, because it's too subjective. It's too easy to read one's own ideas into the process.

A spiritual interpretation is necessary for spiritual matters. Those churches may in truth have exhibited each of the very traits and faults expressed of them but spiritually, they would have been prophetical examples of the generations of the church for to come, even unto the end and revelation of Jesus Christ.

Again, these letters could not merely be to the physical churches of the day because at the very least, Revelations was written after Christ's ascension which means the letter the Thyatirans and the message of "hold fast til I come" must be of a future revelation. If one wishes to discount the divisions of the churches and group their gifts into one "tried by fire" or one "faces the beast" lump then so be it but I see and read very clear distinctions.

Christ says when he comes he is bringing his gift with him. Those who are wise whom Christ finds in faith at his coming will receive that gift immediately, but those who are unwise will only have their gift after they go get the oil to light their lamp....they being those who come out of great tribulation. One of the greatest acts of faith for the future martyrs is to deny the beast worship. The unwise come out of great tribulation but they still come.

(this is only my simple understanding)

I have always read it is though he were speaking to the unwise virgins in verse 12 because verse 13 in the KJV is noted with a "start new paragraph" symbol. Chapter 24:42 begins and new paragraph therefor I read it as the first verse but I can understand where you are coming from although I don't trust "other versions." I read the kjv and Interlinear because I've found others to leave out stories entirely or be interpretations, not translations.

.......Anyway, I would assume that even if there was going to be a "Rapture", it would be taking those who believe in Christ rather than those who believe in the Rapture, so people's views on the subject ought to make no difference.

We know that those who say to themselves, "the Lord delayeth his coming" will surely be taken unaware in a day they know not but those whose hopeful expectation is to see Christ, whose prayer is "Come Lord Jesus," certainly they will keep they're lamps lighted regardless of the day or hour.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

not being at all about the time of the end or leading up unto the very time of the end when Jesus shows up again, I find to be unscriptural.

Can you define "The End"?
The end of what?
What exactly do you believe is going to end?

Take me at my word and define "time of the end" by Jesus showing up again and consider what that means in loo of scripture.

Christ would also not have told us he was going to prepare a place for us and would again come to receive us unto himself.

His going away he was describing before his arrest. Right after that, he says"You know the way to the place where I am going."
He meant his death. I have to think that he was able to beyond death take people to heaven.

Jesus descended in Sheol and set the captives of old free, then he ascended into the heavens. In Galilee the disciples were told that Jesus would return just as they saw him go into the sky. Jesus was talking about returning to the Father and preparing a place for us and his reward is with him when he comes just as he said.

What does matter is that be watching as we see the days approaching and to be ready in our hearts not loving this world and the things of it more than we love him and want to be with him.

Jesus can take you right now, and to think otherwise is taking away from the abilities of Jesus. This is what Jesus is teaching Martha through the resurrection of her brother. She says he will rise on the last day, and he says 'I am the resurrection', then goes on to demonstrate the concept.

edit on 20-4-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Certainly life can end any moment but not the angels nor even Jesus knows the day our Father has prepared and that day shall not come unless there come an apostasy and the son of perdition be revealed.

Originally posted by HeFrippedMeOff
It also seems odd that Christ would say the way is straight and narrow is the gate that leadeth unto eternal life and few be there that come in thereat if he were including a great multitude that comes out of great tribulation.

Numbers are relative.
"One thousand people" is a large number in relation to a family, and a small number in relation to the population of the world.
The crowd could be a "great multitude" capable of filling the vision from one horizon to the other, and still be only a fragment of the human race throughout history

Again, these letters could not merely be to the physical churches of the day because at the very least, Revelations was written after Christ's ascension which means the letter the Thyatirans and the message of "hold fast til I come" must be of a future revelation.

At no point in these discussions have I been disputing the expectation that Christ would come again- the question has always been about the timing of the event.
Therefore quoting evidence that Christ will come again is irrelevant, because we both agree on that point.

Christ says when he comes he is bringing his gift with him. Those who are wise whom Christ finds in faith at his coming will receive that gift immediately, but those who are unwise will only have their gift after they go get the oil to light their lamp..

I've already pointed out that absolutely nothing in that story indicates that the "unwise" virgins ever receive that gift.
I refer you to what was said a couple of posts back.

We know that those who say to themselves, "the Lord delayeth his coming" will surely be taken unaware in a day they know not but those whose hopeful expectation is to see Christ, whose prayer is "Come Lord Jesus," certainly they will keep they're lamps lighted regardless of the day or hour.

Yes, indeed. And that hopeful expectation is NOT limited to those who expect to see it in "Rapture" form

reply to post by DISRAELI


Right. "The many" simply means "the majority" in Greek, the "few" means the minority. We also read that there is a multitude that no man could number in heaven.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

Take me at my word and define "time of the end" by Jesus showing up again and consider what that means in loo of scripture.

I want to know what you mean because you keep throwing out terms without defining them.

Jesus descended in Sheol and set the captives of old free, then he ascended into the heavens. In Galilee the disciples were told that Jesus would return just as they saw him go into the sky. Jesus was talking about returning to the Father and preparing a place for us and his reward is with him when he comes just as he said.

If Jesus could take those people then obviously he can take each one of us when we die, and does not need to come in person in some sort of spectacular way.

Certainly life can end any moment but not the angels nor even Jesus knows the day our Father has prepared and that day shall not come unless there come an apostasy and the son of perdition be revealed.

That comes from 2 Thess. which is a forgery, meaning not actually written by Paul.

reply to post by jmdewey60


You have a selective interpretation of the bible . Your consensus theory could work against you . I'm pretty sure that you can find a consensus that will say what ever you want . And anyone who does not agree with you is disingenuous or to be disregarded . I'm sure that there has a silent consensus been made on each of us on this site by whom ever read it . Have you ever wondered what yours would contain ?

reply to post by SimonPeter

You have a selective interpretation of the bible

It's mine, and not someone else's.
I see plenty of the sort of thing you are talking about, making it say what you want it to.
That is what I am trying to avoid.
Do you have an authority figure who tells you what interpretation to accept?
If so, how is that to you a good thing?

reply to post by jmdewey60


You say you are part Pretretist but you didn't say what the other influence is . Is it Jehovah Witness . When Jesus ask me what am I , I will not say Baptist . I will say I am a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ.
Again the 2nd Thess . chpt. 2 is supported by the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 verse 29 and on . I suppose you honor the words of Jesus .

reply to post by jmdewey60

It's mine, and not someone else's.

That revelation makes sense now. Hardly no Christian I've seen here agrees with you. The pagan shaman guy does a lot, he's about it.

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

You say you are part Pretretist but you didn't say what the other influence is . Is it Jehovah Witness . When Jesus ask me what am I , I will not say Baptist . I will say I am a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ.
Again the 2nd Thess . chpt. 2 is supported by the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 verse 29 and on . I suppose you honor the words of Jesus .

Preterism all but died out after WW1 and WW2. The world is NOT getting better since 70 AD. Not by a long shot.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


What is your take on the ( Nibiru/ Sedne/Planet X / Tyche ) 10th planet in our solar system that orbits at an angle of 30 degrees to our orbit . From what I have seen it should pass through our orbital plane in soon . The very large mass will upset our orbit and cause cataclysmic effects on earth . This would not be its 1st orbit . Evidently the ancient Sumerians knew about this planet with a mass of 4 times of Jupiter . Such an event could be supported by scripture .

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

What is your take on the ( Nibiru/ Sedne/Planet X / Tyche ) 10th planet in our solar system that orbits at an angle of 30 degrees to our orbit . From what I have seen it should pass through our orbital plane in soon . The very large mass will upset our orbit and cause cataclysmic effects on earth . This would not be its 1st orbit . Evidently the ancient Sumerians knew about this planet with a mass of 4 times of Jupiter . Such an event could be supported by scripture .

I actually believe the near passbys were Mars.

The elites are Luciferians, he's had 2,000 years to study Revelation, he knows what's coming. The book even says these evil men will hide themselves in the belly of the Earth.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


I will look at the rest of the presentations but , In 1982 NASA looked for and found and named a very big planet on a plus or minus 3600 year orbit and very elliptical as well . Sedna was the original name .

reply to post by NOTurTypical

The pagan shaman guy does a lot, he's about it.

Some one called me?

Oh, OK, at least this isn't your thread. The OP seems to have abandoned it.

Actually, JMDewey60 is the guy who invited me to join ATS. He thought I was still a Christian. gasp! Infidel, worst sort of person imaginable

We don't agree about plenty. What we do agree about is what's possibly the greatest threat to life on Earth. And it isn't Pagans or Muslims.

See my new thread: The One Sided Nature of Jewish and Christian Dialog

reply to post by pthena


You can see that as being called, I was just pointing out no Christians agree with the "real Christian", just one guy who is proud to claim he is not. It wasn't meant to slam you, just to stress my point. I don't care if you guys are sidekicks or not, that's fine Sir.

I just read your thread, considering the Good Samaritan story why does it matter if they don't return our blessings?

Originally posted by SimonPeter
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

I will look at the rest of the presentations but , In 1982 NASA looked for and found and named a very big planet on a plus or minus 3600 year orbit and very elliptical as well . Sedna was the original name .

Could be what brings the nasty of Revelation, I don't know. Could be. The Mars information kinda explains many nutty stuff from the past.

reply to post by SimonPeter

You say you are part Pretretist but you didn't say what the other influence is . Is it Jehovah Witness . When Jesus ask me what am I , I will not say Baptist . I will say I am a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ.
Again the 2nd Thess . chpt. 2 is supported by the words of Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 verse 29 and on . I suppose you honor the words of Jesus .

I'm a Seventh Day Adventist. I would advise you to, if you are interested, study the religion thoroughly for a couple years to get a good grasp of the concepts involved, then some of the stuff I write may make sense to you. The SDA eschatology is not simplistic, in that they take into consideration all the ways of interpreting prophecy as past, and ongoing, and future events.

reply to post by NOTurTypical

That revelation makes sense now. Hardly no Christian I've seen here agrees with you. The pagan shaman guy does a lot, he's about it.

Really? A "revelation" . . that someone can formulate their own opinions free from some sort of leader?
I think you loose sight sometimes what it is that you are writing on. I suppose you see it as a game board to play out some sort of domination fantasy. It is a discussion forum, where what is of value is the introduction of different ideas, not a way to "earn points". Dragging out worn predigested systems of conformity has no real value in such a setting as what we are currently utilizing.
Agreement, such as you brought up, is the idea that belief systems can be judged on a higher level by how much harm they cause to humanity, something "pagans" may be better equipped to do objectively, than someone already brainwashed to overlook the flaws in the very system they are immersed in.

reply to post by jmdewey60


Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith. Is He the Author of confusion? I'd suggest pondering why you are alone on and island agreeing with a member who denies Christ.