David Paulides Missing 411 ... Disappearances in the national parks

So I've got all three of the books now, and I gotta say, some of these are really out there in terms of plausible explanations. I think Paulides is starting to feel that too, because the third book seems to imply Bigfoot less and less. He states that he's got at least six plausible theories on what's happening, but unfortunately doesn't go into them in the books (I'm somewhat tempted to email him via his site to ask what they are), but I can guess at at least three. There's the Bigfoot theory that I believe he went into this project with, the idea that some form of "time slip" or dimensional thing is responsible, and the obvious one of human activity.

Me? I'm not sure what I think. There are distinct clusters that seem to show different identifying factors that make me think at least two different phenomena are responsible. In the Eastern US, a significant number of the disappearances involve children 1-4 years of age, who often end up being found in inaccessible locations, specifically swamps and mountains. This cluster seems to have the best rate of survival. Then there's a very specific cluster along the Appalachian Trail and Great Smoky Mountains that seem to be the work of humans. Several reports talk about seeing "wild men" (meaning in this context modern humans who, for whatever reason, have decided to live in the wilderness and commit occasional criminal activity like this man), including one disturbing case in which a young woman was apparently chased by unidentified men who she believed meant her some kind of harm. That case is detailed in a 1989 Deseret News article found here, and it's an interesting read.

In the west, the odds of a missing person being found alive, or at all seem to decrease. Several cases within national parks in the western US seem to defy explanation, like that of photographer Charles McCullar in Crater Lake. He disappeared in the dead of winter and was later found in an area 14 miles from where he was last seen. To get there, he'd have had to travel over 105 inches of fresh snow, and that's still not the most disturbing part. You see, when McCullar's body was found the next summer, it was in fragments. The largest bone recovered was his skull and mandible. The area was littered with bone chops, and a number of his personal effects were never found, including a large Buck knife and his boots. A summary of the case can be found under "1976" on this page

All in all, there's definitely something out there, and it's not healthy to be around.

Originally posted by RUFFREADY
You mention a couple of "what the kids said, the big black folks", remember the two kids that were hiding behind a downed tree when the S&R folks were yelling for them...and when they came upon the two kids they asked, "why didn't you yell back?", The young boy replied, "we thought you were the, "Gorilla people"., I read that and thought...oh crap!

Indeed! A very interesting statement. I don't know if you saw but I mentioned that one earlier. The kids said they got there after they were running from a bear. As I said previously, if a bear wanted to catch a child, it would. No question. If, however, someone/thing wanted to get a child away from others, chasing it is a good way to do that. It's a shame no one asked them any further questions about the gorilla people.

Originally posted by OneisOne
I wanted to let you know that Dwight McCarter also wrote a book 15 years ago about his time doing search & rescue while working for the park service (Lost!: A Ranger's Journal of Search and Rescue). It is a fascinating book to read. It has several cases (including the Dennis Martin disappearance) and for each it "sets the scene" of the disappearance, then switches to McCarter's search & rescue journal notes.

If you can find a copy for purchase, I would highly recommend it. Very insightful and sometimes creepy. Also here is a link to a local newspaper that has a video of McCarter talking about the disappearance & some photos, Missing, Dennis Martin.

YES! I know he released a book, but can I find a copy!? Hell no! I think there's a conspiracy keeping it from me...that or it is quite an old one and living in the UK I can't imagine there was much demand. Also thanks for the interview link. I shall give that a watch post haste!

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
So I've got all three of the books now, and I gotta say, some of these are really out there in terms of plausible explanations. I think Paulides is starting to feel that too, because the third book seems to imply Bigfoot less and less. He states that he's got at least six plausible theories on what's happening, but unfortunately doesn't go into them in the books (I'm somewhat tempted to email him via his site to ask what they are), but I can guess at at least three. There's the Bigfoot theory that I believe he went into this project with, the idea that some form of "time slip" or dimensional thing is responsible, and the obvious one of human activity.

I decided to beat you to the punch and have just used the form on the website to ask! Nothing ventured, right? I would be incredibly interested to know exactly what he thinks. I mean, I can understand the obvious Bigfoot one, but the others? I just hope he replies.

Me? I'm not sure what I think. There are distinct clusters that seem to show different identifying factors that make me think at least two different phenomena are responsible.

I agree almost completely. I would say that either we have two very different and distinct phenomena occurring, or one phenomena exhibiting itself in different ways in a different environment.
Regarding Troy Knapp, I saw that story and instantly thought about the books. If a city man can make the move to the wilds and survive for 7 years, mostly unseen, surely others can? And anyone raised there would be better able to survive.
The only thing that puts me off the wildman theory is the rapid deterioration of weather. I'm more inclined to think animal, as they are able to detect things in the air before a huge storm that humans cannot. But we, of course, have the news and weather! Almost hourly. I believe that if indeed it is a human (and I almost completely do, today) that is responsible, s/he/they would need to have some form of regular contact with the outside world, some form of radio technology that would allow them to listen in on any SAR broadcasts and monitor their chances of escape, and, horribly, the either spoken or unspoken agreement of the Park Services higher ups to be operating.

I listened to one of Paulides most recent C2C interviews and from what he said, the language he used, I believe he is (as you said, ShadeWolf) moving away from the Bigfoot theory. And I find as I re-read and re-read, I am too. While it is not beyond the realm of possibility that if Bigfoot exists, it is responsible, there are too many "ifs" dependent on other "ifs." I'm a firm believer in Occam's Razor, meaning the simplest solution is usually the correct one, and while it may be difficult to imagine one person grabbing a child metres from their parent in silence, it is not so difficult to imagine than one doing.
And what better scapegoat than Bigfoot!? Who would believe a sapient hominid whose existence depends on blurry, 40 year old footage took their child/husband/sister/brother/mother

Oops! Almost missed you James!

Originally posted by James1982
I remember reading this thread last year, but I can't remember, has anyone brought up the underground angle?

Some have thought that bigfoot might reside partially or primarily underground. Either in preexisting cave systems or dug-out type residences. I'm just thinking that many of these reports sound similar to the vietnam war stories of VC popping out of nowhere and then disappearing again. Obviously we are all aware of the extensive underground tunnel systems the VC had which afforded them the ability to do this, perhaps bigfoot has a habbit of digging tunnels for transport, or even possibly for ambush. No specifically to ambush humans, but for hunting in general, and now and again humans happen to fall prey.

I have considered it, and am honestly undecided about it. Partially because there is no other great ape currently existing (and I stress, currently) that habitually dwells in caves. Then again, I recall our own ancestors moved into caves and I'm left wondering. I don't have much knowledge on the caves beneath the parks, but I've heard a rumour that you could possibly travel very far without seeing the Sun's light.

The fact that many of these abductions were children has a simple explanation, although it might not be the true explanation. While bigfoot is most likely strong, I'd question its ability to easily, quickly capture a 200lb man and carry him off without a struggle. I'm not saying a bigfoot couldn't easily kill a full grown man, or kidnap him, but I can't see it being such an instant fluid motion as it seems to be when they kidnap children.

Just the weight of such a person would throw the center of gravity way off and make it difficult to run quickly (and quietly) through the forest. Try to run in a straight line with a 50lb bag of cement. Then try it when the bag of cement is flopping and struggling. Then try it in the forest with tons of obstacles and unstable ground. While many people likely could go running through the forest with a 50lb bag of cement, I doubt anyone could do it with their normal speed.

A very good point. And like I said previously, Occam's Razor. Kids are easier to steal , so kids are targeted more. And yet, adults DO disappear, often in seemingly more violent situations than when children do. Might it be possible that while they're content to take kids, adults are seen as an intruder in their territory?

It would not explain, however, the people being found so far away a short time later. Unless these underground tunnels were large enough for bigfoot to run full speed, which seems unlikely as something that large dug through mud and forest waste would probably be in a constant state of collapse and such tunnels would have been found sooner. But small tunnels just big enough for him to crawl through would allow him stealth movement, at the cost of speed. But if these collapsed it would be hard to even detect.

Unfortunately it almost certainly wouldn't also explain the increases in elevation that some of those who go missing undertake for whatever reason. I think it's more likely they're carried overland, primarily for practical reasons. A lot of the people who are missing are in areas where it's unlikely there are any cave openings. I understand though, unlikely is not the same as impossible.

reply to post by JackofBlades

One of the only things Facebook Find Bigfoot said that I agreed with was that Bigfoot, if it exists, must process information at a speed vastly greater than us. If it's ability to see something, process the information, and react to that information was even 10x faster than ours it would seem to be supernatural to us, and would also account quite well for the ability to seemingly disappear in an instant.

When I read what you wrote there, it made me think of this. You might be on to something.



Chimpanzee Cognition: Beats humans at memory task




One more...I LMAO when he took a drink before he pour the water on the fire





I do think there might be an unknown primate in them there woods.

I came across this thread today and read through a good portion of the posts. One angle to this that jumped out at me was this has been happening at a lot of the National Parks, I am unclear on whether this has been happening at State parks as well or, if so, with as much frequency. So, on to my question, is it possible that these areas were known to have these occurrences or sightings prior to being given National Park status? Could there be more to it that the NPS | BLM | other agency knew about something in the area and made a park there to preserve it? Or is this just a case of that's the only free range of land left so these creatures sort of moved there as developing areas gained traction?

This thread, first read it when it started in 2012, for some reason always reminds me of H G Wells' 'Time Machine'. A breakaway civilisation or 'group' lives or exists along side the very sheep like humans. Let's face it, the majority of humans have still to turn on their brain. We casually exist, believing whatever we are told at school, tv etc....there are NO Monsters etc. And yet.....many 'civilisations' for want of a better word, may exist along side our own.
Are we the top of the 'food chain' as so often told?
I doubt it very much, infact I am certain we are not.
I shall certainly be reading the 411 series this year, but not while I'm on holiday in the middle of nowhere!

This drawing was commissioned by Sasquatch Watch of Virginia, and based on a sighting one of its members had in 1982.

Have you ever been in the woods and wondered what could be there, lurking behind the trees? One group thinks they know.

Some of the members of Sasquatch Watch of Virginia have actually had a sighting—where they’ve come face-to-face with a creature they believe is a Bigfoot. But even those who haven’t believe the creature exists.


“I could accept that this thing is human, whether it’s an undiscovered Native American tribe of people, I could accept that this is some kind of North American ape that just simple hasn’t been documented yet,” he said. “Those are the two main theories.

Interesting article. If its a "smart ape, unknown to science, like the above films of very smart and fast chimps.

Link www.wvpubcast.org...

Originally posted by evc1shop
So, on to my question, is it possible that these areas were known to have these occurrences or sightings prior to being given National Park status? Could there be more to it that the NPS | BLM | other agency knew about something in the area and made a park there to preserve it? Or is this just a case of that's the only free range of land left so these creatures sort of moved there as developing areas gained traction?

Well, Paulides does say a few times that there are a number of disappearances in regions with 'Devil' in the name, and asks the reader to wonder why they got their name. Also, I can't say for certain for every region, but supposedly Crater Lake has quite a long association of being a 'no-go' area with the local tribes of Native Americans, and I possibly recall a couple of other areas being habitually avoided by them too. And then, of course, there are the odd stories from a couple centuries ago. I'm 90% certain that some very in depth digging would reveal that the majority of clusters are in proximity to places the local tribes keep very far away from.

Originally posted by Elliot
This thread, first read it when it started in 2012, for some reason always reminds me of H G Wells' 'Time Machine'. A breakaway civilisation or 'group' lives or exists along side the very sheep like humans. Let's face it, the majority of humans have still to turn on their brain. We casually exist, believing whatever we are told at school, tv etc....there are NO Monsters etc. And yet.....many 'civilisations' for want of a better word, may exist along side our own.
Are we the top of the 'food chain' as so often told?
I doubt it very much, infact I am certain we are not.

Yes! That is exactly what I think too! However unlike the childlike subspecies in that (cannot remember their name for the life of me!), I believe certain members of our species are not only aware of whatever it is doing these things, but in all likelihood are condoning, and arranging for it to take place!

One point (which I always come back to) is Dennis Martin. He sticks in my mind because of the effort to find him. While all the others were (mostly) extensive, Dennis' somehow strikes me as being different for some reason. And I think it's the armed troops 'searching' for him.
What we know about this incident is this: The Martins were hiking, kids were playing, when Dennis disappeared maybe 40-60 feet from the group. A short time later, another family (the Keys) hear "an enormous, sickening scream" and see a humanoid figure carrying a 'something' discreetly and quickly making a run for it. Search begins, etc etc. FBI tell Mr Key his sighting was irrelevant, despite, y'know, a kid's been grabbed and a possible suspect has been witnessed making a getaway whilst carrying something.
The most unusual aspect though isn't any of the above stuff...

It's the presence of another Martin family at the same place, at the exact same time. Both families met up, discovered they shared a surname and decided to hang. Dennis get's grabbed, search begins, nothing found.
But was Dennis the wrong Martin? Had this all been arranged beforehand, and this time there was a slip up?

Think about it for just a second.

For whatever reason you've been told there's going to be a family at a location at a certain time, and you're to grab one of the kids. You see pictures, possibly be told they'll be wearing a specific colour (probably a bright one, as that's another common theme), etc. You turn up, see a family with a kid in bright colours and make your grab. Then, as you're escaping you realise this kid wasn't in any of the pictures. Something's gone wrong. Possibly disastrously wrong! A person with less self control might roar in anger, or scream in frustration, might be so distracted at thinking of the mess up he doesn't pay enough attention to his surroundings and get's spotted. Whoever's in charge, knowing what this individual is capable of, decides to cut him off and orders a special task force to apprehend and neutralise him, with Dennis becoming that oh-so-compassionate military term "collateral damage."

Wild conspiracy theorising, but it's 0130am and my sleep deprived brain is going overtime! However, I do believe the presence of the second Martin family is a big factor in the almost perfect abduction, and I believe their presence is what caused whatever it was the Keys saw to scream, and be seen. And, further, I believe it was their presence there that unfortunately cost the Martin's their little boy.
I'd be curious to know exactly why the other Martins were there, or how far in advance they'd planned their trip.

I shall certainly be reading the 411 series this year, but not while I'm on holiday in the middle of nowhere!

Cannot blame you!

reply to post by RUFFREADY


Haven't a chance to read tonight, but I will most definitely be giving it a look see in the morning!

I'm all for the idea Bigfoot is not only an intelligent ape, but is in fact more intelligent than us! However it may be a different kind of intelligence, one which we may have dropped as we adapted to a more urban lifestyle, or one we never had access to anyway.

reply to post by JackofBlades


Excellent post there. The whole "Devil" name connection ties into not only disappearances, but general strangeness. Loren Coleman remarks on the name coincidences (for example, the two unrelated men with the unlikely name of Charles Wetzel being involved in two separate cryptozoolgical/paranormal incidents in different ends of the country) in his book Mysterious America. Places with names indicating any kind of malicious presence (Bad Medicine Lake, Devil's Gate Dam, etc...) seem to attract high strangeness of all sorts. I personally find this very interesting, despite the fact that the "synchronicity" theories pull in the complete opposite direction of what I usually believe about the supernatural.

As for the idea of a parallel race of humans? It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented historically. Modern humans are believed to have coexisted with at least two other human species in the past, the idea of one surviving to this day is far-fetched for sure, but not out of the question. My question on this would be a more practical one, though. What do governments have to gain by not disclosing the existence of such a species? Unless you go for the stranger theories regarding the Hollow Earth or what one author refers to as "cryptoterrestrials" (extremely advanced Terran civilizations whose existence remains hidden), the discovery of another equally-intelligent human species would be a huge event in almost every aspect of life. But unlike the discovery of alien life, it wouldn't really change much if we'd been living with them all this time.

reply to post by onfire49


I think it is Bigfoot/Sasquatch. Let's say for instance that a female Sasquatch had a stillbirth. Even though my hypothesis is that they are descendant of the Gigantopithecus, you might have convergent evolution of psychology of fostering or replacing a child like we do.
These abductions are not for food, but for adding to the family unit or tribe. Imagine a male Bigfoot encountering a hairless human child by themselves. Both would be confused, so the bigfoot picks them up and shleps them several miles to their camp. Once there, the other members disapprove of such a move and abandon the child there and move on.
Reading enough reports of how fast Bigfoot moves in a couple of steps have led me to this hypothesis.

I have known of one case for many years that is very strange in its a remote place in the desert at a well known hot springs in Death Valley National Park.
How someone could disappear in a area with no trees or any other cover from aircraft.
articles.latimes.com...
www.deathvalley.com...

the one question many of us that went to the hot springs have is that a known serial killer Cary Anthony Stayner (born August 13, 1961) currently on death row for the 1999 murders of four women in Mariposa County near Yosemite, California was known to go to this hot springs in Saline Valley around the time this couple went missing.

Originally posted by vaelamin
reply to post by zarp3333

 

I have always wondered how the ancient societys like the sumerians aztecs greeks and so on came up with all these mythological beasts. I mean the government is obviously hiding whats going on in these cases so why wouldn't they hide some very important history. Im wondering just how strange the ancient world was back then?

Very very strange.

Originally posted by Kratos40
I think it is Bigfoot/Sasquatch. Let's say for instance that a female Sasquatch had a stillbirth. Even though my hypothesis is that they are descendant of the Gigantopithecus, you might have convergent evolution of psychology of fostering or replacing a child like we do.

I have actually considered that theory, but it just doesn't feel like it fits, in my opinion. I mean while it is not impossible (humans have been known to do the same thing, unfortunately) I don't think it can account for the number or widespread nature of the disappearances.

Originally posted by ANNED
the one question many of us that went to the hot springs have is that a known serial killer Cary Anthony Stayner (born August 13, 1961) currently on death row for the 1999 murders of four women in Mariposa County near Yosemite, California was known to go to this hot springs in Saline Valley around the time this couple went missing.

Very interesting case, and one I've not heard of. Without knowing much I can't really say too much, but judging from Stayner's history I'd say it doesn't really fit his M.O. And one thing Paulides says which I definitely agree with and believe is that an opportunistic killer in these remote areas are taking a big risk going after lone adults simply because they don't know if their target is armed. Two people, both potentially carrying, is a very risky target.

Originally posted by ShadeWolf
As for the idea of a parallel race of humans? It certainly wouldn't be unprecedented historically. Modern humans are believed to have coexisted with at least two other human species in the past, the idea of one surviving to this day is far-fetched for sure, but not out of the question.

Perhaps not so far-fetched. Recall the tribe that was discovered a year or two ago that had never made contact with the rest of humanity and who have since, if I remember rightly, been sort of 'quarantined' by their government so our way of life isn't forced on them and their culture can be preserved. A brilliant move, by the way.

My question on this would be a more practical one, though. What do governments have to gain by not disclosing the existence of such a species?

Well, financially speaking, the Parks and Forests generate a massive amount of revenue for the US. And if people knew about a divergent 'people' (human or otherwise) living in them, it could negatively impact the takings, it would also lead to a reduction in the amount of lumbering because the area would need to be totally protected to keep them alive.
Honestly though, I think the reason is a little more simple. Have you seen Sirius? While it wasn't a groundbreaking alien disclosure, one of the guests in it stated that he thinks governments and militaries keep things classified simply because they've always been classified, and it's as simple as that.

Although, I was for a while thinking on the possibility that perhaps Sasquatch and the government have simply reached an accord in which Bigfoot is allowed to roam the forests but not harm anyone, and the government will keep them hushed up, with both sides policing themselves. If Sasquatches were policing themselves it could explain why sometimes the taken are returned. Bigger squatch beats the abductor, leaves the kid/remains somewhere they can be found, takes kidnapper for punishment.

THAT'S how you do far-fetched

Thank you guys for sharing your thoughts and bringing this thread to a whole new level. Unfortunately im so busy right now with kids and work so I don´t even have time to finish reading Paulides last book. I know most of the cases discussed here and you guys brought forth some interesting thoughts.

I´ll just be the fly on the wall until I have time to indulge deeper into this subject again.

Originally posted by James1982
I remember reading this thread last year, but I can't remember, has anyone brought up the underground angle?

Some have thought that bigfoot might reside partially or primarily underground. Either in preexisting cave systems or dug-out type residences.

Your post just made me think of the movie "The Descent".

This is a pretty disturbing film. So if your not into horror movies you might want to pass on this. I don´t want to spoil anything, but this movie kinda made me think about the missing people.

www.imdb.com...

A caving expedition goes horribly wrong, as the explorers become trapped and ultimately pursued by a strange breed of predators

BTW it´s not about BF, sorry.

Best thread i have read in ages , thanks to everyone who contributed .

CASE 347

this case is from 2005. And is still debated.

Uploaded on Dec 6, 2009

TAPE OF MISSING PERSONS FOUND IN PARK

www.youtube.com...

I usually do not trust people who appear on C2C much, in fact C2C is THE go-to place for dis-informants and hoaxers. That being said, the books seem "interesting".

But I don't like the fact he has an obvious bias since he is also involved in "Bigfoot research" - and saying that those disappearances are due to Bigfoot sounds like a huuuuuge, far-fetched stretch to me, not to say it sounds entirely nonsensical.

reply to post by BobAthome


Dude why would you even post that ? clearly fake but at the same time it is quite well done despite the poor acting , dont ya think this would have went viral worldwide had it been true ?