David Paulides Missing 411 ... Disappearances in the national parks

It´s taking me longer that expected to finish reading the western edition. Im about at the last chapter and I must say there are some really really strange cases of missing people, or people that where missing and later found. What about the bears that carry off little kids and build shelters for them? Bears? Everyone knows bears would rather eat a person and not carry them off...

Im still on the fence on what could be responsible for all of the disappearances, but sasquatch does come to mind in a lot of the cases. On one hand you got all the supposed sightings of the creature and the other you got people going missing in those same areas. Now add them together and you got it? In order for that to be true, the sasquatch would also need some type of supernatural (super stealthy) power. The native americans attribute certain powers to bigfoot and they have been telling us that they accaisionaly kidnapp people.

I have read the eastern edition and now im just about done with the west. I have been going from BF to other things all them time while reading but now im back to BF being responsible for most of it.

It just sooooooo freaky... what are your thoughts?

reply to post by hesse


One of the only things Facebook Find Bigfoot said that I agreed with was that Bigfoot, if it exists, must process information at a speed vastly greater than us. If it's ability to see something, process the information, and react to that information was even 10x faster than ours it would seem to be supernatural to us, and would also account quite well for the ability to seemingly disappear in an instant.

Imagine you're looking at one peeking at you behind a tree. You move to get a better view and you just glance at where you're going to put your foot. In that instant it's seen you, processed everything it needs to (no threat), seen where you're moving to, identified cover, and when you look back...Poof! Vanished into (seemingly) thin air.

While that is fascinating, taking this supposition into consideration whilst reading the book is truly terrifying. A lot of the accounts, as I'm sure readers are aware, involve someone glancing away and looking back to find someone has 'disappeared.'
A creature that could process information at high speeds, and who's body would be strong enough to enable it to move at similar speeds, would be more than capable of grabbing those who vanish.

One case from the Western edition really exemplifies this. I can't remember the name, and my mum currently has the book, but it involved an autistic boy out in the woods with his dad. His parents had seperated so his dad very much cherished the time.
The boy was running around his dad, hiding behind the few trees in the area. Ducks behind one and then doesn't come out. Dad investigates and he's not there. Starts calling, and gets no response.

Now,
Imagine you and a child are taking a walk in the woods. The kid, being a kid, isn't walking at your heel but dashing about. You lose sight of him for an instant. Something has been watching and waiting. In the one instant where the child has moved into a place which will allow a 'clean getaway' it dashes forward. It has already estimated your line of sight, estimate the speed it'd need to travel and plotted a course away before it even begins to move. It flits in, grabs, and flits off.

Interestingly enough, in the above case, they dragged sniffer dogs to the car and gave them the boys scent. Expecting the dogs to cross the road towards the path the pair had took, they were surprised when they instead ran back along the road the way the car had come, then stood against a high wall and started barking. It was assumed they had no scent.
What struck me is that even when examining this, Paulides missed the most obvious and most probable scenarios:

Scenario 1: The dogs did not miss the scent. They picked up the freshest scent and followed it to where they could. This would mean the boy either returned to the vehicle then climbed the wall or whatever took him carried him up the hill, out of the sight of his father, crossed the road and ran back away then hopped the wall.

Scenario 2: The dogs had a stronger and more potent scent which they tracked back along the way it had come. Which would mean that whatever took the boy had tracked the vehicle and, once it pulled over, hopped the wall, moved to investigate the vehicle and then headed toward the child

Originally posted by JackofBlades
reply to post by hesse

 

One of the only things Facebook Find Bigfoot said that I agreed with was that Bigfoot, if it exists, must process information at a speed vastly greater than us. If it's ability to see something, process the information, and react to that information was even 10x faster than ours it would seem to be supernatural to us, and would also account quite well for the ability to seemingly disappear in an instant.

Imagine you're looking at one peeking at you behind a tree. You move to get a better view and you just glance at where you're going to put your foot. In that instant it's seen you, processed everything it needs to (no threat), seen where you're moving to, identified cover, and when you look back...Poof! Vanished into (seemingly) thin air.

While that is fascinating, taking this supposition into consideration whilst reading the book is truly terrifying. A lot of the accounts, as I'm sure readers are aware, involve someone glancing away and looking back to find someone has 'disappeared.'
A creature that could process information at high speeds, and who's body would be strong enough to enable it to move at similar speeds, would be more than capable of grabbing those who vanish.

One case from the Western edition really exemplifies this. I can't remember the name, and my mum currently has the book, but it involved an autistic boy out in the woods with his dad. His parents had seperated so his dad very much cherished the time.
The boy was running around his dad, hiding behind the few trees in the area. Ducks behind one and then doesn't come out. Dad investigates and he's not there. Starts calling, and gets no response.

Now,
Imagine you and a child are taking a walk in the woods. The kid, being a kid, isn't walking at your heel but dashing about. You lose sight of him for an instant. Something has been watching and waiting. In the one instant where the child has moved into a place which will allow a 'clean getaway' it dashes forward. It has already estimated your line of sight, estimate the speed it'd need to travel and plotted a course away before it even begins to move. It flits in, grabs, and flits off.

Interestingly enough, in the above case, they dragged sniffer dogs to the car and gave them the boys scent. Expecting the dogs to cross the road towards the path the pair had took, they were surprised when they instead ran back along the road the way the car had come, then stood against a high wall and started barking. It was assumed they had no scent.
What struck me is that even when examining this, Paulides missed the most obvious and most probable scenarios:

Scenario 1: The dogs did not miss the scent. They picked up the freshest scent and followed it to where they could. This would mean the boy either returned to the vehicle then climbed the wall or whatever took him carried him up the hill, out of the sight of his father, crossed the road and ran back away then hopped the wall.

Scenario 2: The dogs had a stronger and more potent scent which they tracked back along the way it had come. Which would mean that whatever took the boy had tracked the vehicle and, once it pulled over, hopped the wall, moved to investigate the vehicle and then headed toward the child

Good stuff and food for fodder for sure, having read both books I am not sure what to think but I do agree that something is off.

Regards, Iwinder

reply to post by JackofBlades


Very interesting take on this! I have never heard of this theory about "Bigfoot process information at a speed vastly greater than us" and I have done a lot of research on the subject. Is there a specific video were they talk about this? I would love to see it!

What you wrote kind of reminded me of this show:

Paranormal Witness -- Watched in the Wildernes

"A former deputy sheriff encounters a mysterious beast in the Oregon wilderness."


I agree with you that most people underestimate Bigfoot and would never think it might be even more intelligent than a human.

I know what case you mean in the western edition. I believe there a dozens probably more cases that sit really well with this theory! There is a case about three kids being chased up a mountain by a bear? You could easily replace bear with sasquatch and the books and the stories would make more sence.

I think the shelters are major clue aswell. Just type BF shelter into youtube and you will find quite a lot of them that people have found in the wildernes. They should be checked for dna evidence.

Well, I have startet to mark the pages with the most interesting cases in the western edition. When im done doing that with all the books, I would like to compile that information and discuss it.

What about the fact that all the people that are later found alive can´t remember anything about what happened to them. It´s like they were in some type of trance state ot something. Wierd stuff!

I would love to know what the FBI has in its files about all these cases!

reply to post by hesse


Its like those who are "missing", have had some sort of missing time episode.

How cant you remember? And no, You cant tell me all of them were dehydrated, or lost for days on end.

Originally posted by hesse
Very interesting take on this! I have never heard of this theory about "Bigfoot process information at a speed vastly greater than us" and I have done a lot of research on the subject. Is there a specific video were they talk about this? I would love to see it!

It's mentioned in a few of their videos, although now the YouTube account is closed it's difficult to find specific examples. I believe one video was the Myakka footage of an alleged BF literally popping it's head from behind a branch at someone then walking off. Whether the footage was genuine or not, the point is still valid. If it was able to absorb, process and react on information at a speed which we cannot it would explain a lot of the inconsistencies or so-called 'paranormal' aspects of Sasquatch.

Doubtless there'd be individuals among the species who would be a little 'slow' in terms of reaction speed, and of course everything makes mistakes or isn't on top form all the time. Which is why, I believe, we occasionally are lucky enough to glimpse them or why, in terms of the book, we get the accounts of bears or wolves or, more vaguely, big animals.
I think everyone on the planet knows that even though every bear isn't looking to eat you all the time, when they do want to you KNOW it's a bear. Even if the victim doesn't survive, the telltale signs of violence and bear scat are present. And regarding the kids who say they outran a bear? Pfft! Usain Bolt runs at 27mph, and even he wouldn't be able to outrun a bear. If a bear wanted to catch a couple kids for dinner, it would.

reply to post by sonnny1


I know right? A lot of those clusters of missing people are in and around places with a history of paranormal and even UFO hotspots. But I don´t want to go down that rabbithole.

Anyway, I watched a documentary in which they talked about BF ability to use infrasound to cause people to somehow "loose it". Lions also do the same thing, they stunn their pray with their roar. It could also be that strong smell some of them seem to have.

The names of those places like Devils Nest are also quite strange. I think I even read about a place called ape mountain or something.

A while backs(afew months maybe) I read a post on here by a lady whose grandson had gone missing while camping and was found later. All of it was under odd circumstances.The lady said that a while after the incident her grandson, while in her care,began telling her about his experience during the time he was missing. Her daughter didn't want to push the subject with boy,though just being thankful he was found safe.The account the boy gave the grandmother was very interesting.i cant find the thread where I read this, but when I heard the radio show I immediately thought of her thread.I do wish she would chime in on this and wonder if she has heard of the book series.I will continue trying to find her thread in the meantime.Does anyone else recall what I'm referring to?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

reply to post by JackofBlades


I have seen some of their videos on youtube. Too bad they closed their account. But I´ll check them out on facebook.

Yep I agree. Did you ever hear about Bigfoot running on all fours? I have heard a couple of stories about them doing that and it seems likely that if one is seen from further away running on all fours, it would make them look a little like a bear.

There is this video on youtube about this guy that tell´s a story about how he was stalked by a group of stealthy fast moving Bigfoots in the woods. He said they ran on all four to get from one tree to another. They then stayed low and peeked from behind the tree. He had the feeling they were hunting him. I will try to find it and post it here.

Another interesting aspect ist the fact that a lot of those disappearances happen near streams and creeks. There was even a show on finding Bigfoot (I really don´t like that show but anyway) where they talked about Bigfoot using creeks to travel without leaving prints. Then there is the Patterson - Gimlin film that clearly shows a female Bigfoot walking along a creek bed. So that would also fit.

reply to post by wehere


Ohh, I didn´t even know about that thread. Thanks! The same OP also created the "Tell your creepy Forest Story" thread: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Man! That same story made David Paulides new book "Missing 411 - North America and beyond". In that thread I also posted a link to the new coast to coast (2013) interview with Mr Paulides, he also mentiones that story!

reply to post by wehere


Oh wow! I had absolutely zero idea that story had already cropped up on ATS!!! Think I'll send the OP a U2U seeing if there are any more details she can add.
Absolutely thrills me every time ATS get's some sort of off-site coverage. I wonder how many other people on here have had a similar encounter.

reply to post by hesse


Ape Mountain was actually named specifically for Bigfoot! Story goes some miners were heading up there prospecting for gold, and managed to stir up some interest from a few of the big guys. They took a shot at one (some accounts say a hit, others a miss), and that night the creatures retaliated spectacularly. The miners got the hell out the next morning, and agreed not to talk. One did, questions were asked, and eventually they'd told everyone.

And yeah, I've heard the accounts of BF running on all fours. And supposedly reaching some pretty intense speeds doing so. And I agree, on all fours and moving quickly it'd be easy to think it was a bear. Is it possible BF realises this and so would approach/retreat like this if indeed it is taking people away?
Brings to mind the story of the three kids who hid in a woodpile by the side of a road searchers were using for a day or two until they were spotted by SAR. When they asked why they didn't come out when they must have undoubtedly heard everyone calling them, the kids said they thought SAR were the gorilla men.
Now, those kids were quizzed further and said they ran up the hill to get away from a bear that was chasing them. As I said previously, if a bear was hungry for child, bear would have got child. If, however, something intelligent wanted to herd them away from safety...

reply to post by JackofBlades


Yeah ape mountain is way up there in prime BF country BC too. Cool story, I never heard of that before!

Well if BF is really as intelligent as we think then it sure is possible that he realises that and uses it for his advantage. There is one video that seems to show a BF running on all fours an yes he is extremly fast!

Ohh that story has a marker in my book! The gorilla men, wow! Well what else could they have seen but bigfoot?

I hope I can finish reading the west coast this weekend, then I can start with the new book.

reply to post by onfire49


Hello, I am new to this forum, but may I be blunt?

I wondered if anyone who has a copy of missing 411 by David Paulides has scanned it to their hard drive and if so can they post that copy here with a link so I can download it.

If there is anything that anybody needs, please let me know

Sincerely

Rath

He gives an interesting interview on this. The disappearances go back hundred of years, with some consistent patterns. Many occur near bodies of water. Bizzare, fascinating and scarey.

www.youtube.com...

rense.com...

Some strange vanishings at the link. Heres one story of a soldiers disappearing.

Three soldiers claimed to be witnesses to the bizarre disappearance of an entire battalion in 1915. They finally came forward with the strange story 50 years after the infamous Gallipoli campaign of WWI. The three members of a New Zealand field company said they watched from a clear vantage point as a battalion of the Royal Norfolk Regiment marched up a hillside in Suvla Bay, Turkey. The hill was shrouded in a low-lying cloud that the English soldiers marched straight into without hesitation. They never came out. After the last of the battalion had entered the cloud, it slowly lifted off the hillside to join other clouds in the sky. When the war was over, figuring the battalion had been captured and held prisoner, the British government demanded that Turkey return them. The Turks insisted, however, that it had neither captured not made contact with these English soldiers.

So I've been re-reading all three books again and trying to make some connections with all of the things I've learned from them, and I'd like to state some (incredibly subjective) facts about what I believe:

I would 100% say that not every case in the book is a part of the associated cluster. Some of them, while strange, just don't have the same sort of 'feel' to them, or the facts of the case just don't really correlate with the truly mysterious ones (in my opinion).

In an overwhelming majority of the cases, it is clear to me that there is an intelligence behind these disappearances. From 2 year olds getting out of calling distance in a couple of minutes, to bodies found drowned that happen to have a broken neck, I believe it is incredibly obvious that at either the point of disappearance or the the point of the body reaching it's final location, clear, rational thought has gone into the whole event.

Additionally, not only is whatever responsible capable of an intelligence and cunning potentially greater than our own, they are also possessed of a physiology vastly superior to the average person's. Understand, by average person, I'm referring to the (almost impossibly small) possibility of a potential predator/killer/etc being in the precise area when someone becomes separated, and deciding to indulge themselves.
The speed at which people just vanish, and the seeming lack of resistance they put up (though not in every case), is to me indicative that someone(thing?) big and strong and fast is operating in these areas. Big enough that they can comfortably carry their target, strong enough that they can keep them restrained and get them to wherever it is they're taking them, and fast enough to dash-grab-flee in almost as many seconds as it took to write 'dash-grab-flee.'

Let's think about speed...

In order to operate at a speed that these abductions (because, in my mind, that is what they are) take place, the intelligent brain behind it would also have to be operating at a speed faster than the average person's. The processing and reaction times would need to be fast enough to allow them to predict their target's course, the best way to grab them and then the best method of both subduing and escaping simultaneously, and all the while accounting for any changes to the whole scene which would demand an adjustment of tactic.
Which is, of course, not beyond the realm of possibility for a person, however unlikely.

Some theories:

It's been the general belief of 'the Fringe' (people like us ATS'ers) that Sasquatch could be responsible for these disappearances. Which, as Bigfoot isn't proven to exist, the law would not accept.
Despite some of those missing describing big men being involved, or witnesses describing ambiguous animals grabbing their kids etc. What I think is most indicative is the description from children. One case involved a child disappearing from his home in the middle of the night. Footprints were found outside the house, and one of his siblings stated that a 'big, black man' came and took him. Another case had a child go missing, and when found he stated he had spent the night with a black couple in their home, who gave him breakfast then sent him on his way.
Now, to a young child, who's never heard of Bigfoot, how would they describe it? Quite possibly they'd describe it as a big, dark coloured (or black) man. Or they'd describe it as a bear or a wolf, or something that they do know. Similarly, parents who have seen an 'animal' grab their child are not likely to immediately think "BIGFOOT!" Chances are they don't even notice what it is, until the initial trauma has passed and they've already begun to rationalise the furry creature that grabbed their child was obviously a bear or a wolf, despite bears and wolves not being able to run on two legs, whilst holding a child.

Dwight McCarter, who Paulides interviewed in regards to the Dennis Martin case, made mention of Wild Men who lived in the Smokies. While many who have reviewed the book have stated this is direct reference to Bigfoot, in actuality McCarter was actually referring to humans who for whatever reason don't associate with the rest of American society and instead live wild (hence the term).Dwight, however, pointed out they normally avoided people, rather than attacked them, and no mention was made of any other attacks.

continued below

And while we're on the subject of Dennis Martin, let's recall the military presence in the search. The presence of troops at an SAR is not unusual. Especially if, as in this case, the troops were stationed nearby. From what I understand, it is commonplace in these instances to mobilise the troops and have them assist in SAR efforts. A highly trained, well coordinated body, of course, is an incredible asset in these situations.
But there are two questions we have in this case: firstly, why was it the military didn't liaise with the SAR as a whole? Why did they maintain their own communications, search areas, and generally avoid contact with the other searchers. It would surely be bad practice to not join up, otherwise you run the risk of stepping over each other, contaminating each others search areas and (most worryingly) destroying any sign of the person you're looking for, whether intentionally or not.
Secondly, the troops that began 'searching' for Dennis Martin, were armed. For those of you who live in a cave, that means they were carrying weapons with the ability to take life in a matter of moments.

They were looking for a little boy.

Now, without getting to profane (because this part makes me seethe with anger), in what goddamned reality would armed soldiers be called upon to find six year old boy who has been taken from his family, probably scared out of his mind, in who knows how much pain? Supposing, of course, he was even still alive. There must have been a reason for it, so why has that reason not been made known?? If the American government know's something the general population doesn't, the loss of each person, child or adult, is on their hands. And when those people aren't found, their blood, the pain suffered by family and friends, and the hard work undertaken by SAR teams are all on their heads.

In the unlikely event that anything ever comes to light in regards to these disappearances, the National Park service, the US government and anyone else who has been complicit in this reckless and criminal cover up should be hauled out and brought to justice.

It goes without saying that the National Parks and Forests of America are beautiful places, and like Paulides, I would not want anyone to not see them (unfortunately, as a Brit, chances are I won't get a chance >

I remember reading this thread last year, but I can't remember, has anyone brought up the underground angle?

Some have thought that bigfoot might reside partially or primarily underground. Either in preexisting cave systems or dug-out type residences. I'm just thinking that many of these reports sound similar to the vietnam war stories of VC popping out of nowhere and then disappearing again. Obviously we are all aware of the extensive underground tunnel systems the VC had which afforded them the ability to do this, perhaps bigfoot has a habbit of digging tunnels for transport, or even possibly for ambush. No specifically to ambush humans, but for hunting in general, and now and again humans happen to fall prey.

The fact that many of these abductions were children has a simple explanation, although it might not be the true explanation. While bigfoot is most likely strong, I'd question its ability to easily, quickly capture a 200lb man and carry him off without a struggle. I'm not saying a bigfoot couldn't easily kill a full grown man, or kidnap him, but I can't see it being such an instant fluid motion as it seems to be when they kidnap children.

Just the weight of such a person would throw the center of gravity way off and make it difficult to run quickly (and quietly) through the forest. Try to run in a straight line with a 50lb bag of cement. Then try it when the bag of cement is flopping and struggling. Then try it in the forest with tons of obstacles and unstable ground. While many people likely could go running through the forest with a 50lb bag of cement, I doubt anyone could do it with their normal speed.

A 200lb man is a lot heavier, and a lot less evenly distributed and predictable.

The underground explanation would also explain why there sometimes aren't tracks or trails for dogs to follow. Or why they just stop in the middle of nowhere.

It would not explain, however, the people being found so far away a short time later. Unless these underground tunnels were large enough for bigfoot to run full speed, which seems unlikely as something that large dug through mud and forest waste would probably be in a constant state of collapse and such tunnels would have been found sooner. But small tunnels just big enough for him to crawl through would allow him stealth movement, at the cost of speed. But if these collapsed it would be hard to even detect.

reply to post by JackofBlades


Very good two post there! I agree with you on your points and thinking.

I also read all three of the 411 books and some of the cases over and over again

You mention a couple of "what the kids said, the big black folks", remember the two kids that were hiding behind a downed tree when the S&R folks were yelling for them...and when they came upon the two kids they asked, "why didn't you yell back?", The young boy replied, "we thought you were the, "Gorilla people"., I read that and thought...oh crap!

Good books in any case.

reply to post by JackofBlades

2 fantastic posts!

I wanted to let you know that Dwight McCarter also wrote a book 15 years ago about his time doing search & rescue while working for the park service (Lost!: A Ranger's Journal of Search and Rescue). It is a fascinating book to read. It has several cases (including the Dennis Martin disappearance) and for each it "sets the scene" of the disappearance, then switches to McCarter's search & rescue journal notes.

If you can find a copy for purchase, I would highly recommend it. Very insightful and sometimes creepy. Also here is a link to a local newspaper that has a video of McCarter talking about the disappearance & some photos, Missing, Dennis Martin.