Vegetarians vs. meat-eaters: Standoff is over

Originally posted by mindpurge

Originally posted by purplemer

Until recently, due to the lack of quality statistical studies, too great of a role in the great debate between vegetarians and meat eaters was played by a rhetorical component. A large-scale study involving 120,000 people showed that consumption of red meat significantly reduces life expectancy. The position of v

www.trueactivist.com...

Studies like this are well overdue. It has long been the common consensus among vegetarians that its more healthy not to eat meat but evidence was scant.

Eating meat in my opinion is an act of bullying against animals. It is puts a big strain on our biosphere. We can feed a lot more people with less land on vegetables...

Maybe one day you will get labels on meat products like you do on cigarettes... Warning may cause cancer..

In a survival situation, you will die if you do not consume animal meat... we are predators, we are carnivores... I do not need a biased vegans studies about how animals have rights... yes they have rights, but that's not the issue... the issue is: Are Humans Vegetarians, or Carnivores?

Lets focus on ALL (every single) current primitive society... from the Amazon, to Africans, to Kalahari Bushmen, to Natives running around naked in the Spice Islands and New Guinea... The BIGGEST thing for them, is HUNTING... Why? Because we are Carnivores... without meat we die.

Sure if you study the human body and feed it nothing but complexes of vitamins, minerals, nutrients all derived from plants and organics... SURE you'll live longer, but that's NOT the point... because that's NOT natural and IMPOSSIBLE to follow.

If I get a Cougar, and feed it in a test tube environment, and it survives, and thrives off organic vegetable proteins, does that give me the right to claim it's a definitive vegetarian animal simply confused about what it should eat? If you say no, then your stance on vegetarianism and reality are very foggy. Vegetarianism is a CHOICE, however it is not natural, and definitely not healthier unless you can somehow calculate all nutrients entering and exiting the body, expenditures of energy vs. intake.

Even then, whey protein is derived from cows... and I'm sure you'd get the same results using proteins derived from animal fats and tissue... I'm almost 110% positive.

Hardcore vegetarians will always have these biased opinions... And although there is truth to them, just because something is true, doesn't mean it's right. Many things can equate to being True, but still do not equate to being equally true to one another, in fact they can contradict eachother.

That's just the way things work.

edit on 21-3-2012 by mindpurge because: (no reason given)

Human beings = Omnivores.....NOT Carnivores!

I find it ironic that vegans always use the argument that killing an animal for meat is wrong and disgusting because they have intelligence/feelings and that a vegetarian lifestyle alleviates this concern. I wish these people would actually do some research on their own argument in order to debate with valid points that aren't present on both sides of the equation...meaning that both plants and animals have intelligence/feelings and thus renders this part of the vegan argument invalid.

Michigan State University researchers have determined plants feel pain;

www.bbspot.com...

Here is an article from the New York Times in 2009 by Natalie Angier that sheds some light on the intelligence aspect;

www.nytimes.com...:%20brussel%20sprouts%20like%20to%20live,%20too&st=cse

Also this article about Plants 'can think and remember'
By Victoria Gill Science reporter, BBC News;

www.bbc.co.uk...

To be clear I personally don't believe that a diet solely based on vegetables nor a diet solely based on meat is a healthy option, I think that balance and staying away from processed meats is the healthiest choice. Moderation of each being the key component.

Originally posted by rickymouse
Nobody is going to make me inferior for eating meat. Try all you want. Taking a life is acceptable if you respect it, using all parts of the animal is best if it has given it's life for us. I often wonder why I do not know even one vegetarian that is really old. I suppose it's because they eat so many natural Cox 2 inhibitors.

True, hence why it has to be done properly, same if you eat meat. Just like a high intake of omega 6 without the correct ratio to omega 3 -(2 or 3:1) - sends these otherwise anti-inflammatory compounds down the prostaglandin pro-inflammatory pathways.

I respect that people have a choice do what they please. I also recognize that we eat a lot of poison in our society. In my opinion the processed sugars, artificial sweeteners, and preservatives are far worse then red meat. With that being said.

Once again a link to a study that when followed shows the data to be nearly meaningless.

From the article.

In the analysis of long-term effects on meat diet, An Pan and his colleagues relied on a statistical study of an impressive scale. A total of 37,698 men and 83,644 women participated in the study. Their health, along with the diet, was tracked for 28 years in the second group, and for 22 years in the first group. During this time, 23,926 deaths were recorded in the two groups surveyed, of which 5,910 – from cardiovascular disease and 9,464 – from cancer.

“We also found that 9.3% of deaths among men and 7.6% among women could be prevented in the observed period of time if all participants reduced their daily consumption of red meat by 50%,” summarized the researchers. In other words, three and a half thousand men and six thousand women who participated in the study would have survived if they had cut their meat consumption by at least in half.

Cardiovascular disease and cancer?If you think red meat intake is the main cause of either one of these diseases then this study has succeeded tremendously in persuading you with meaningless statistics.

I will let everyone in on a big secret.....EXERCISE!

sb

Please, eating meat will not kill anyone, unless there is something wrong with the meat of course. Everything in moderation, and you'll be fine. A glass of red wine is good for you, 3 or 4 bottles, not so much. I dated a vegetarian for 7 years, sickest person I've ever known, massive mood swings, depression, you name it. Now, she has been eating meat for the past 2 years, she said it was really hard at first, she got really sick everytime she ate, but now feels better than she has in years. Way more energy and not constantly dragging her ass.

The vegetarians need to leave well enough alone. Its not often you here a meateater bashing a vegetarian. You're soooo enlightened and advanced......then why try to control those around you? Just seems that the more "righteous" a person thinks they are, the more they feel its OK to ram their opinion down everyone elses throats, yet get so defensive if someone trys to disagree with their points of view. I'll respect your veiws if you respect mine....otherwise its you that needs to evole. I'm very far from perfect.....so are the rest of you!!!

IMO these two individuals take apart this "observational study" pretty well. Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs, you cross a line when you start trying to force your own on others.

Science, Pseudoscience, Nutritional Epidemiology, and Meat

Alway s Be Skeptical Of Nutrition Headlines: Or, What “Red Meat Consumption and Mortality” (Pan et.al.) Really Tells Us

reply to post by StarBoy

Most of the arguments against vegetarians are absurd. Before making any argument think of cultures that have vegetarianism, such as Hindus. Asian Indians are nearly all vegetarians and yet we never hear of a mass die off.

thanks for pointing that out, very important

here is why:

yet another factor that was not taken into account was geography/environment
let all these vegetarian fanatics move to a cold climate, they wont last long.

because people who live in cold climates need to eat more meat

the reason for religious vegetarianism in India has nothing to do with karma, the sacredness of life, the possibility that the cow or chicken you slaughtered last week was your dearly departed mom re-incarnated, or any of the excuses/explanations the Brahmins posit.

the reason for religious vegetarianism in India has everything to do with the Aryan invaders of India suddenly succumbing in great numbers to Gout. en.wikipedia.org...
their original diet was heavy on beef AND FERMENTED LIQUOR [so add alcohol and yeast as factors as well]
people who live in the tropics and other hot climates need to keep their meat consumption [and uric acid levels] to a minimum.

Vegetables are good for vitamins, minerals, nutrients and most importantly....ROUGHAGE to keep one regular.

Eating vegs alone will no doubt leave you deprived of certain proteins only MEATS not lab created supplements can only provide.

I love my prime cuts of beef and will enjoy them. I know several vegans and beside looking anorexic most are not happy and I see why when you are depriving the body of its most basic needs.

The honest vegans will tell you it is a hard lifestyle on the body...and so will any doctor.

Being a human vegan is unnatural to the scheme of the metabolism of the Human body.

Exercise, sunshine, exposure to the elements and fresh air is needed for the human body to process the proteins of red meat, fish, chicken and fowls.

The only no-no in my diet is PORK which has been scientifically proven to have no benefits of eating.

When it comes to good health I go with the law of perpetual motion....KEEP IT MOVING KEEPS YOU MOVING!

Everyone's metabolism and nutritional dietary requirements are different.

One model does not fit all!

If you believe that by living on plants and their juices will sustain the human body(especially with today's hectic lifestyles) you are wrong.

Your teeth need the stresses called shock and vibe in order to stay healthy. Your central and lateral incisors are for cutting into MEAT not fibrous plant tissue.

This is all factual and any attempt to dispute it is futile!

reply to post by beezzer

No guilt. You want to eat veg? Great.

More meat for me.

Just don't try to pry it from my cold, greasy, (BBQ'd) hands!

That's just gross...

meat was imperitive to our evolution to homosapiens
if we were still eating plants we would be too lethargic or sick to have evolved our brains
man cannot live on plants alone (and thrive)
some of the nutrients in meat cannot be replaced with vegetables

those veggie lovers will have to wait for that lab grown meat to get cheaper
but until then they can enjoy their constipation/poor digestion and vitamin deficiency

This study, and others like it, are a complete waste of time and money. No one is going to change their mind about what they eat based on these. Do they honestly think someone is going to read this, have an epiphany and go empty their deep freeze of all meat? They enforce what vegetarians already believe and the meat eaters could care less, evidenced by the comments in this thread. With all the pollution in the air, water and ground, it's a wonder we don't all drop by the age of 40 anyway. Edit to add- I'm an omnivore, I get the best of both worlds. Matter of fact, I'm having a nice BLT on toasted bread for lunch as we speak. Mmmmm Bacon!

Hmm this old man in michigan ate nothing but venison.. I think he died at 103 or so..


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Originally posted by Insearchofthetruth1987
meat was imperitive to our evolution to homosapiens
if we were still eating plants we would be too lethargic or sick to have evolved our brains
man cannot live on plants alone (and thrive)
some of the nutrients in meat cannot be replaced with vegetables

those veggie lovers will have to wait for that lab grown meat to get cheaper
but until then they can enjoy their constipation/poor digestion and vitamin deficiency

Sorry dude/dudette, at the clinic I'm involved with, all those delightful symptoms you mention above are typical of a diet with high meat intake. We actively encourage people that come to us with these problems to cut right down on the meat and reduce the red stuff to about once a week. The above symptoms are hardly ever seen in a non-meat/low meat diet that is done properly. Add bad wind to that list with meat eaters too.

My aunt was a vegetarian and she died of breast cancer. My grandpa was a heavy meat eater and lived to 100. Nobody I know that lived to 80+ was a vegetarian. Case closed, in my perspective.

Every study I've seen shows a clear lack of vital nutrients in vegetarian diets.

And you ever seen a vegetarian? They look like sticks.

Everything from the proper fatty acids to the b12 to the protein and on and on is lacking.

We evolved on a meat diet. There's no reason to think vegetables would be good for us.

Look at Eskimos, for example. Their diet was almost exclusively meat. They're perfectly healthy.

Only thing I don't like are all the hormones and the unhealthy animal farming practices. My meat is all locally grown and it's not gooey like the sh** you buy at the stores. Just recently heard about pink slime too.

Anyway, I saw a study recently that showed bone diseases and many cancers and reproductive problems and growth deficiencies are very common among vegetarians. If I was a vegetarian, I'd be worried.

reply to post by mindpurge


In a survival situation, you will die if you do not consume animal meat...

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Not true - Have been there - done it - got the T shirt over 30 years ago
Total self sufficiency with a group of international friends
Crops of every description grown organically - fish we netted - but no animal meat fowl milk or eggs or their products
Preparation and effort makes survival easy and not only thinking about one's own skin.
The best resource for survival is people - each other - we had enough of everything to give a lot away also.
If you want to eat meat then do so and hunt if you so wish in a survival situation but to say you can not survive without eating meat is a fallacy

I've recently become a vegetarian, I'm only about two months in but I personally feel much better than I ever have and have more energy than ever. I don't see myself ever going back. For me I made the change because of a mix of spiritual and health reasons. I thought about why I ate meat and the only reason was 'because it tastes good.' That wasn't enough for me to justify continuing to do so. And strangely enough the things I eat now seem to taste better. Sure I know plants have been proven to feel pain and all that, but that has only relatively recently been discovered and plants aren't always killed to harvest their fruits. I can look at a cow or chicken and tell it is a sentient being.

All of my friends and family eat meat, and they are all accepting of my decision as I am accepting of their decision to eat meat. I haven't had a single debate with anyone in real life over the pros and cons of vegetarian vs. meat eating upon people learning I don't eat meat any longer and would never try to convince anyone to make any lifestyle changes. It can get so combative on both sides with both sides attempting to feel superior when there is no reason to be. The stereotypical vegetarian has the bias they are more enlightened and the stereotypical meat eater has the bias they are stronger and the 'top of the food chain' thing always comes up. Both arguments are pointless. Eat what you want and do it responsibly.

For the people in this thread that talked about thinking about becoming vegetarian but worried they couldn't due to growing up on meat, it really isn't that hard. I thought I would miss it but don't at all. I did a fruit fast for a week before switching and if you've never fasted before that is a great way to get in touch with yourself. Don't worry about the people saying you can't get protein you need, or be unable to do physical work - that is a simply not true. Beans, nuts, etc., can provide plenty of protein.

I had stopped eating Meat until I read this...Now I am going to go get a Burger with extra bacon. WHY?

Because I hate hate hate hate people telling me what to do and what is healthy for me!

Even if the science says eating meat is bad eating chemically sprayed modified franken crops is worse! I grew up on a farm and people have lost touch with where their food comes from. If I get a cow or a pig or any other yummy juicy sweet meat I know a local farmer who does not have a corporate hormone injected feed lot to get it from.

So go eat a carrot but stop spreading meat hate...and believe me when you are hungry you will eat whatever you can...

reply to post by LightWarrior11

Since I'm not a vegan, I can't imagine what a person can eat that's going to be enough fuel to do physical work..

That's insane!

Before I went Vegan, I used to feel so darn tired all the time from the bread, cheese and meat. God, my diet was so darn limmeted come to think of it... The stuff just sits there and stagnates in your intestines.

Sorry, back to your quote... Let me give you an idea of what a Vegan might eat. I must admit, I do eat so much more now, more frequently that is. And I have a loads of energy!

Morning - 6 pm (I actually wake up now.. gasp! :lol Coffee!

9:30 ish... A bananna
10:00 ish. A pear or an apple.
11:00 - 12:00 ish I sometimes eat a whole pineapple! Or some oats.

1:00pm Whatever was left over from dinner. Roast Veggies, Falaffel Burger etc..

Mid afternoon.. Some humus usually, with a red pepper.. or some seed loaf with whatever toppings.. home made jam.. marmite..

And then there is dinner... This can be a challenge Mostly I'll do, like.... Grilled mushrooms with grilled tomato and avocado. I experiment A LOT! A couple of huge fails along the way. Comes with the territory .
The possibilities are endless.
Pastas, Rice dishes, Salads, Quinoa (the grain of the Gods, I might ad ) Grilled Vegies, Soups.. You get the point.

The other day... I made a kick a$$ Carrot cake with chick pea flour and bannas as an egg replacement. The icing was made with coconut oil, coconut milk and normal icing sugar... To die for!

Seriously, my diet is so varied now.. I had really been missing out as a meat eater. And plus, I feel awesome.

Also, go read about hemp oil... It has THE PERFECT balance of omega 3:6:9 oils plus the amount of protein in hemp seeds is insane. The oil and seeds conatin so many good things, and no one knows about it.. Puzzlez me. Truly.

reply to post by scorpiosin

Take a look here:
www.thefreelibrary.com ...

It's well known in science that certain chains of fats are crucial to our well being. When we examine nature, we see that the only sufficient supplies of these fats are in animals. Now ain't that odd. This means that our body needs these fats and in the past the only viable way to get them was from animals.

What do you think that means?

I also saw a study that linked depression with people who do not consume enough meat.