i'm confused about this forum

Here's my litmus test. Tell me the temperature of Loveland, Colorado on April 2, 2012. Will there be snow? Rain? Wind? Answer that, and I'll believe you can predict the climate 50-100 years out. Last week, the news said we'd have 2-4 inches of snow. Nothing. a few weeks ago, they said we'd get a dusting. I spent an hour shoveling over 8 inches of snow.

I can't add to the informative grafts and ideas here, except maybe in a layman's observation. I know something has changed because of my flowers and trees blooming 2 months ahead and I have been gardening a long time. Some of my rose bushes never went dormant, never seen it here. One snow fall, never seen that here either. Saw the robins the first of February.
I don't know if it is normal or manmade. But one thing we should agree, is to prepare for it. People from the coasts and plains will eventually move elsewhere if the violent storms continue and the water table rises because of melting glaciers.

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by dannotz
reply to post by pasiphae

 

I agree with you, the attitudes people log onto ATS with are UGLY. That's Datroof.

It's like, everyone is just waiting for a reply so they can try to one-up the other person.

Nobody can conjecture anymore, or use their imagination.

And if you go a bit "out to space" you get some old crusty mean member that comes in with pie charts and 20 links telling you whatever you think you wanted to talk about isn't going to be talked about because they said so and they have charts and numbers.

The new members just try to argue or get their post count up most of the time, and the old members are so distraught that their good ole ATS just aint the same anymore that they come into every thread just itching to leave a reply that says;

"you stink, your ideas stink, i'm awesome, look at my 5,000 post count, [insert sarcastic witty remark], oh and here's a pie chart that says your wrong"

I totally get you OP, it's hard to scroll down past the OP sometimes, and other times it's hard to even read a threads OP because it was written so arrogantly with little to no factual information to back up their thoughts. And yes people, opinions and facts aren't the same thing.

I've really been trying to be a good member lately, and encourage good conversation and debate, i just wish others would adopt this philosophy.

Let me know when you wanna talk about climate change, we can have a nice long conversation about it all night if you'd like!

Thanks for posting this

edit on 6-3-2012 by dannotz because: spelling

My personal favorite is when they cite "statistics" and pie charts from which "PROVE" there is no global warming...data courtesy of the National Association For Burning as Much Coal & Oil As We Can.

Just because it's "data" doesn't mean it's credible. Critical thinking means asking yourself if the parties who compiled the "study" might have had a vested interest in a given result or inherent bias, and if so...to what degree?

yes! I agree.

That's the difference between some people on ATS. Some believe everything they're told through the news, some believe that we don't know anything at all, and that our science can be wrong. (like me)

I know what you're talking about, like when speaking about physics, i can't stand when people are like "this is the way it is, this is what Einstein said, Newton said. Well i'd hate to burst their bubble, but science is discovering new things everyday. If our science was so "right" we wouldn't still be searching for some of the bigger answers.

reply to post by pasiphae


No, you're not. I wonder the same thing all of the time. It's why I finally joined and stopped just browsing threads. I saw ATS turn more and more "partisan" if you want to call it that. I know, I know, not supposed to see in left or right. It just.. I can't help but see A LOT of conservative bias going on here. Lots. Sickening really.

I don't care if you don't believe in global warming because you just choose not too, but don't make it so blatantly obvious that you have a political agenda about it. I see a lot of "dirty, no good hippies!" crap on this site. Lol.. I mean have we narrowed it down to a bunch of old, possibly conservative, crotchety men that frequent this site in throngs? I don't see a lot of left, or middle of the road people. Sorry for applying politics, but it seems to go that way a lot.

Global warming is our friend.

We will be able to garden all year!

Use less heating oil.

Save money on expensive warm clothes and boots.

The property I bought a mile from the beach will now be on the beach.

I could go on and on...

reply to post by flyonthewall84



Lots or rude, high and mighty, tear you apart types too. You've likely noticed that.

reply to post by pasiphae


The fact of the matter is Humans just have not been around long enough to tell what is going on with the planet, or even been keeping records to show a pattern.

With that being said Everything on this planet comes & goes in Cycles (EVERYTHING!) How can we even think what is going on in our under developed brains that we only use maybe 10% LOL...

I do think the climate is changing in some way from the Norm ive seen my whole life, Im 31years old and i have lived in Seattle Wa. my whole life, and the last 2 years the cherry Blossoms have bloomed in late February-Early March, and just this morning it snowed here, and i noticed all the Blooms yesterday on my walk.

So Yes in my opinion something is changing, But how much? Who knows....

The adult debate is not about this petty bickering. Cap and Trade would have lead to huge increases in prices on food and energy. Millions would starve to death based on unproven science and the poor would be hit and hit hard. Gore would have made an estimated 2 billion in one day and Obama's freinds in the Chicago Carbon Exchange would have made even more. That's what the adult conversation is about.

We know that the climate is changing. That much is a fact. There is zero evidence that things like Cap and Trade will change anything at all.

No computer yet exists that can run a model of the current data. The current available data only covers maybe 75 years of good info and another 75 or so of info from things like journals and logs. To even make an educated guess would require perhaps hundreds of thousands of years of data and a model and computer that may not exist for decades.

Alternative energy is not ready yet. Trying to force it would cause massive suffering. Those are just facts and real facts.

This is about a small number of people who are fanatics on the topic attempting to control everyone else for their own selfish prejudices and beliefs. People who could care less how much they harm others as long as they get their own way. No common sense, no logic and no compassion for the poor of the world who would suffer and starve if they get what they want. No middle ground, no plan, no working together for a rational solution that would not destroy the economy or the poor.

Everyone wants a clean environment. Everyone wants energy solution's. Some want it now and to hell with the damage, some want rational steps to work towards a better future. Some would continue to fear monger and be a thorn even if they got what they wanted. Many just picked a cause and if they did not have this one, they would jump onto another in the same irrational manner.

Working together in a rational way that causes the least pain is the answer. Radicals will never sit still for that. Their driving force is they want attention and control. They will never be happy and when one fanatical cause goes by they find another.

By the way. Nothing new under the sun. We were taught in the early 70's that an Ice Age was coming and that by now all trees would be dead, hundreds of millions would starve by now and the oil would be all gone a few years ago. They were just as sure of themselves and in fact some of the same people are behind this new round. They ignore they were wrong then and insist they are right now, knowing full well they can't accurately predict the weather next week with their current level of knowledge. ....and we should believe them without questioning them?

Deny Ignorance. Demand proof. Question everything. Follow the money. Your cause leaders stand to make billions and you trust them. Amazing!

Originally posted by VoidHawk
Do you have any evidence that humans have caused climate change? Al Gores BS has been debunked so many times so you cant use that. Infact in the uk a court and a judge actualy called Al Gores bs Decption an lies.

The evidence is there. ream and reams of it. Whether you choose to ignore it and show ignorance is your choice.

Originally posted by navy_vet_stg3
I believe in climate change. Ask the Woolly Mammoths. It happens, it's natural, and it's happening now. What I don't believe is that I need to pay all my money to some collective bank run by a bunch of elitists that are using the planet's natural cycles for profit because they're able to dupe a large number of morons into believing that mankind is causing it.

Wow are you showing ignorance. Please please please investigate who is financing the anti human gw debate. Once you find that out you should be very angry that you have been conned by them.

Some people like to be conned though, it saves them having ti think and/or accept collective responsibility for what is happening.

NOT ONE RED CENT IS COLLECTED BY ANYBODY AND PASSED TO ANY HUMAN GW GROUP. Lots of BS soaked up by the ignorant. EVERY "carbon tax cent" is collected and passed to people who DO NOT believe in human GW. Have you not noticed !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Human GW is blindingly obvious and astonishingly logical that is why people have to resort to rants, raves, threats, swearing and personal attacks........those huge corporations are loving it.

Originally posted by dannotz

Originally posted by milominderbinder

Originally posted by dannotz
reply to post by pasiphae

 

I agree with you, the attitudes people log onto ATS with are UGLY. That's Datroof.

It's like, everyone is just waiting for a reply so they can try to one-up the other person.

Nobody can conjecture anymore, or use their imagination.

And if you go a bit "out to space" you get some old crusty mean member that comes in with pie charts and 20 links telling you whatever you think you wanted to talk about isn't going to be talked about because they said so and they have charts and numbers.

The new members just try to argue or get their post count up most of the time, and the old members are so distraught that their good ole ATS just aint the same anymore that they come into every thread just itching to leave a reply that says;

"you stink, your ideas stink, i'm awesome, look at my 5,000 post count, [insert sarcastic witty remark], oh and here's a pie chart that says your wrong"

I totally get you OP, it's hard to scroll down past the OP sometimes, and other times it's hard to even read a threads OP because it was written so arrogantly with little to no factual information to back up their thoughts. And yes people, opinions and facts aren't the same thing.

I've really been trying to be a good member lately, and encourage good conversation and debate, i just wish others would adopt this philosophy.

Let me know when you wanna talk about climate change, we can have a nice long conversation about it all night if you'd like!

Thanks for posting this

edit on 6-3-2012 by dannotz because: spelling

My personal favorite is when they cite "statistics" and pie charts from which "PROVE" there is no global warming...data courtesy of the National Association For Burning as Much Coal & Oil As We Can.

Just because it's "data" doesn't mean it's credible. Critical thinking means asking yourself if the parties who compiled the "study" might have had a vested interest in a given result or inherent bias, and if so...to what degree?

yes! I agree.

That's the difference between some people on ATS. Some believe everything they're told through the news, some believe that we don't know anything at all, and that our science can be wrong. (like me)

I know what you're talking about, like when speaking about physics, i can't stand when people are like "this is the way it is, this is what Einstein said, Newton said. Well i'd hate to burst their bubble, but science is discovering new things everyday. If our science was so "right" we wouldn't still be searching for some of the bigger answers.

No doubt. Especially since "what Einstein said" is basically the exact opposite of "what Newton said" and neither one can even be really compared to "what Feynman said". Nevertheless all three are pretty much both simultaneously equally inaccurate and equally accurate.

Life really gets weird when you understand that the cat is both alive AND dead at the same time until you look at it.

reply to post by yorkshirelad

What's ignorant is thinking you can predict the weather 50-100 years from now when you can't even tell me what the weather is going to be on April 2nd. Go ahead. Tell me what Loveland, Colorado is going to be on April 2nd. Temp, precipitation, wind speed, etc. Get it right, I'll believe your crystal ball.

reply to post by flyonthewall84

I don't care if you don't believe in global warming because you just choose not too, but don't make it so blatantly obvious that you have a political agenda about it. I see a lot of "dirty, no good hippies!" crap on this site. Lol.. I mean have we narrowed it down to a bunch of old, possibly conservative, crotchety men that frequent this site in throngs? I don't see a lot of left, or middle of the road people. Sorry for applying politics, but it seems to go that way a lot.

This is something that I wonder about every time I come here.

On the one hand, a conspiracy website is certainly a place you would expect to find many Libertarians - which is fine. I can't say I agree with everything they believe in, but I can't exactly blame them for mistrusting their government either.


But there are soooo many of these fake-Libertarian sock puppet comments on this site, the kind that come from some drone who watches way too much FOX News, it makes me wonder if these people really are this hopelessly brainwashed, or if they are actual (paid) sock puppets?



(I actually hope it's the latter - because at least that would still be kind of sane, as dirty as it is)



What scares me is the idea that these people really all believe the blatant astroturf being fed to them, just because it presents itself under the guise of "Libertarian" values.


The whole climate change thing is a perfect litmus test for that because of how deeply tied into the issue of renewable energy it is.


You would think any true Libertarian is all for green energy - because of the potential it provides to take yourself off the grid/cut loose from the system, etc.


But look around ATS and you see SO MANY stupid comments about electric cars, solyndra, dirty no good hippies (while simultaneously defending big oil, fracking, etc) you quickly realize these people are obviously spoonfed all these talking points.

The question is - how do they end up HERE of all places??


I constantly wonder how many of the morons in this video actually lurk on ATS:

reply to post by navy_vet_stg3


You are conflating weather and climate, which are two separate things.


Weather is a subset of climate, but it is chaotic and therefore incredibly unstable and difficult to predict.


Climate is much more consistent, hence easier to quantify and model.




You ask what the conditions will be like on April 2nd, 2012 in Loveland, CO to point out how no one can apparently answer these things. But that's weather.

I can just as easily turn that around and tell you there's a 99.9% chance July will be a warmer month in Loveland than January. That's climate.






It's also similar to the difference between "global warming" and "climate change":



Scientists KNOW our greenhouse gas emissions are trapping heat energy in the atmosphere, and thus leading to an overall (on average) planetary warming. That's basic physics and it is indisputable.


How this affects regional climates in places like Loveland is much more complicated. It depends on how global warming also affects precipitation patterns, ocean currents, jet streams etc.

These things are much harder to model - hence why "climate change" is such an elusive topic - but that uncertainty still does nothing to detract from the basic physics that tell us global warming IS occurring.


Demanding someone predict the weather to prove global warming is entirely unreasonable and a total non sequitur.

Anyone who does not believe in man-made climate change, whether it be warming or not, hasn't heard or researched the issues involved in Geoengineering. Geoengineering is man-made climate change on steriods.

Whether people want to attribute the planet warming to natural or man-made causes or whether they want to deny that the planet is warming at all. Human behavior is affecting the climate and the planet. Humans cut trees down which affects the planet. Humans have vehicles which burn fossil fuel and emit exhaust which does effect the planet.

To anybody who doesn't think that human pollution from vehicles doesn't affect us. Try sitting in an enclosed garage while your car is running for an extended period of time. Guess what happens. Carbon Monoxide poisoning and you can die from it. Industrial and vehicle emissions are not just harmful to our health they are harmful to the planet.

You can argue to what degree or percentage human emissions cause global warming all you want. Just don't try to deny that any amount of emissions is harmful. All emissions are harmful.

To the OP I recommend you join in the debate about Geoengineering. Most of the people involved in those discussions are at least not in denial about AGW.

You shouldn't buy things that say they are Eco-friendly. that means Economy friendly. Not buying things you really don't need is environmentally friendly and cheaper.

I agree with you. I remember as kid there being snow piles every where, which lasted all season. It has been less and less over the last couple of decades. This year we have had more rain than snow. Only three good snowfalls which lasted less than a week each. Record avg temps in the plus side.

Originally posted by usmc0311
reply to post by pasiphae

 

Anyone who doesn't believe the climate is changing. Come to Michigan and talk to the people and you will find your answer. This is the first year that anyone can remember that the lakes have not frozen over. (in southern MI)
We also have not had a snowstorm produce more than 3-5 inches of snow at a time. We have had record highs and sustained periods of warmth. Enough to cause trees to bud in January and my garlic to sprout as well. I laugh at people who don't believe our climate is changing. The reasons can be debated till everyone is blue in the face, but the simple fact is that it is changing. Also look what is happening in europe this winter.

Just last year, we had record snowfalls and plenty of cold weather. The mild winter this year is an aberration and it was all due to a trapped pressure system or such. Northern Canada and Alaska had record lows this year.

It is not global warming, nor climate change. It is the big fancy w word called Weather.

Be more concerned about Global Government than global warming.

reply to post by flyonthewall84

TextI don't care if you don't believe in global warming because you just choose not too, but don't make it so blatantly obvious that you have a political agenda about it. I see a lot of "dirty, no good hippies!" crap on this site. Lol.. I mean have we narrowed it down to a bunch of old, possibly conservative, crotchety men that frequent this site in throngs? I don't see a lot of left, or middle of the road people. Sorry for applying politics, but it seems to go that way a lot.

Mr. Fly,
By your blog i see that you are not bias at all. I do not really understand how you can tell if a person is a dirty no good hippie by reading this post. Nor can I understand how you can tell if a blogger is a crotchety conservative old man sitting at his computer in a throng. You do talk favorably for the liberal left wing socialist party and actually that is your prerogative. I do not hate you for your belief's by any means because I have hopes that at your young age you will one day see that Carl Marx was not as you see him today. Once you lose this constitution and wonderful way of life, and your ilk come after you, there will be no more old conservative warriors to save you from yourself. The graveyards are full of brave conservative men and women who gave you what you spit upon today. Next time around we shall see how well you socialists fair.

Originally posted by jak1682
I agree with you. I remember as kid there being snow piles every where, which lasted all season. It has been less and less over the last couple of decades. This year we have had more rain than snow. Only three good snowfalls which lasted less than a week each. Record avg temps in the plus side.

I remember last year, shoveling almost every darn day. No place to put all the snow. My heating bills were the highest ever. It was always cold, always snowing. From November 2010 to March 2011, it was the most winter I'd experienced in the land of winter.

Are people just choosing to ignore last year because this year was mild?