i'm confused about this forum

reply to post by Vasa Croe

I simply ask for multiple dates to reference specific beginnings of climate change periods to determine if ours this time around is, in fact, out of sequence by a considerable enough number of years to convincingly state that we have a hand in our current climate shift.

Sure, but as I mention in my last post above - this actually does nothing to determine whether current climate change is, or even can be, man made.

That is just correlation - which helps make the case for sure, but it could also just as easily be a coincidence.


The real proof lies in the physics, and in simple cause and effect.

For example we absolutely know, without a shadow of a doubt, that CO2 is a greenhouse gas that traps heat. This can be verified in basic at-home experiments like these:







This has been known for 150 years - which is why man made global warming was already predicted back in the 19th century:

www.aip.org...





So there is in fact actually no question that man made emissions lead to some degree of global warming - the only real debate is how much. This question is far more complicated, but there is also tons of evidence now that the amount is quite significant.


A good summary of that evidence is provided in the other link I left above:

The human fingerprint in global warming


But there is tons more if you'd like to see...

Thanks for the opportunity to discuss this!

Ditto

reply to post by VoidHawk


So when did we start needing evidence to prove humans are screwing up the environment. The people screwing it up need to prove they are not. I am aware of the ploy you are using, presently used by lawyers all over the world. I know that jobs are important but to disregard mans future for saving a few bucks is stupid. I grew up living in an area where the mines made the area a superfund cleanup site. Our government spent a lot of money covering areas up but noone could do much to actually fix it. These mining toxins caused some of the restrictions on fish consumption from Lake Superior in the past. This fish is humans food. I know we need mines but more caution should be observed. We, the people of the country paid for the cleanup, not the mines that dissolved when they finished mining. BP paid a lot more out than they were legally responsible for with that gulf spill. I think they are a good company but think they should get rid of the kind of people working for them that take unrealistic risks for profits and bonuses.

reply to post by mikelkhall


Past climate change is really quite irrelevant to the question of the man-made kind. See my previous post above on why.

This is a very common misconception people have, but an absolutely critical one.



Also just FYI - I really wouldn't trust anything posted on wattsupwiththat.com - it is a well known propaganda site. I've caught them flat out lying myself in numerous discussions with other ATS members.

Here's some good background info on Anthony Watts -





*ETA - I should clarify that past climate change is not "irrelevant" to the question of man made climate change - because there is actually tons of clues among past (natural) cycles that help us determine a man made cause now. It's kind of a long story, but again - references available upon request

reply to post by rickymouse


That is one of the biggest problems we have now in our world. The minority of individuals that actually do the damage to the world, whether it be climate change, economy, drugs, war, etc, are never held liable for the mess they make. It has always been up to us, the majority, to fix the problems by having to suffer, pay higher taxes, endure endless disease and poverties.

It has always been this way and will continue until we decide to do something about it. Posting about it on bbs or talking on radio and t.v. is good but will never make a change.

reply to post by mc_squared


Thanks mc. I didn't know that.

reply to post by mikelkhall


No prob. That's why we're all here - to help each other get to the real bottom of this stuff.


I'm feeling more and more optimistic about this thread.

Originally posted by mikelkhall
reply to post by rickymouse

 

That is one of the biggest problems we have now in our world. The minority of individuals that actually do the damage to the world, whether it be climate change, economy, drugs, war, etc, are never held liable for the mess they make. It has always been up to us, the majority, to fix the problems by having to suffer, pay higher taxes, endure endless disease and poverties.

It has always been this way and will continue until we decide to do something about it. Posting about it on bbs or talking on radio and t.v. is good but will never make a change.

Information does change people. Some of things I read on the internet changed me.

The internet is not just empty words. What we do here matters.

BUT...after a certain point comes ACTION.

reply to post by mc_squared

Confirmation that rising carbon dioxide levels are due to human activity comes from analysing the types of carbon found in the air. The carbon atom has several different isotopes (eg - different number of neutrons). Carbon 12 has 6 neutrons, carbon 13 has 7 neutrons. Plants have a lower C13/C12 ratio than in the atmosphere. If rising atmospheric CO2 comes fossil fuels, the C13/C12 should be falling. Indeed this is what is occuring (Ghosh 2003) and the trend correlates with the trend in global emissions.

The Human Fingerprint in Global Warming

I had no idea that there were more than one type of CO2. Guess you can teach an old dog new tricks.

Do you have any evidence that humans have caused climate change?

Absolute indisputable evidence- heat islands. Concrete soaks up solar radiation and releases it at night making the air warmer than it should be. National Geographic found that some cities are up to 10 degrees warmer at night than surrounding areas due to concrete and other manmade causes.

Also, cutting down most of the forests changes the climate as well and 2 billion people using fires to cook and heat with every day of their lives.

Fatties cause global warming

THE rising number of fat people was yesterday blamed for global warming. Scientists warned that the increase in big-eaters means more food production — a major cause of CO2 gas emissions warming the planet. Overweight people are also more likely to drive, adding to environmental damage.

This is where I draw the line. Now I am pissed.

reply to post by mikelkhall


Yeah scientists have pretty ingenious ways of finding tiny fingerprints in the crime scene.


And PS - in that case you are a pretty rare breed of old dog. Believe me - I've discussed this before with numerous skeptics, and the vast majority of them have already completely made up their minds, so any "new trick" that opposes their view simply gets flat-out rejected.


That's why the word "climate deniers" is so prevalent in this debate. Because these people are not skeptics at all - they are just total blind contrarians, and therefore just as brainwashed as anyone they try to point the finger at.


Open-minded questioning, challenging of ideas, humility and willingness to explore ALL aspects of the evidence is what true skepticism is about - and something that is very very much appreciated in this debate.

It's just a shame that it's so rare.

Originally posted by mikelkhall
Fatties cause global warming

THE rising number of fat people was yesterday blamed for global warming. Scientists warned that the increase in big-eaters means more food production — a major cause of CO2 gas emissions warming the planet. Overweight people are also more likely to drive, adding to environmental damage.

This is where I draw the line. Now I am pissed.

lol the thing is though - if you want to talk conspiracies - all joking aside, consider what it means if it's true: now McDonald's, Burger King, KFC etc all have a vested interest in convincing you that global warming is a hoax. Those are some pretty powerful people.

It's something I wrote about in greater detail in this thread:
You have all gotten in bed with the enemy.

This is the other side of the global warming conspiracy, the one that IMO not nearly enough conspiracy theorists take the time to really stop and consider.

Believe it or not but I am a cop....well an out-of-work cop now cause I got ran over by a vehicle, but thats another story, but I have always had an open mind. I have had to in order to do my work. I believe in finding out the truth even if the truth is something I don't want to hear. I have never been someone to blindly follow someone which is why I actually read all the links that have been posted so far.

The kicker to me was the fact that, as I said earlier, I had no idea that there was more than one type of CO2. That was why I was not a believer in us being a cause for some form of global warming.

I'm still not a hundred percent convinced but I have learned some things in this thread and I appreciate everyone for being respectful to an ole` country boy.

Originally posted by VoidHawk
Do you have any evidence that humans have caused climate change? Al Gores BS has been debunked so many times so you cant use that. Infact in the uk a court and a judge actualy called Al Gores bs Decption an lies.

Forget Al GORE.

Study the science that has not been shredded by the vitriolic right wing.

Study the science that has not been bought sold and influenced by lobbyist for big oil.

If you were an oil company wouldn't you want people to be comfortable burning fossil fuels and NOT go looking for alternatives? Wouldn't you? Do you think they are big enough to sway opinion of politicians and shove a few nerdy scientists around a bit? Get a grip. There is a lot of proof out there. If you want to see it all you have to do is google global warming and look for science links and not political forums.

reply to post by pasiphae


I agree with you. Climate is definitely changing and it's just not recently but from last few yeas. There is hardly a rainy season here, extremely short winters and very long unbearable summers. I dont need any scientific data to know how to feel because I am living in such a place where this is directly affecting us.

Anyone who cannot see the major changes in our climate and weather, really needs to open there f***ing eyeballs.
I have lived in Calgary, AB, Canada the entire 26 years of my life.
Growing up, winter's were brutal. Now it's a joke. Never would I have been able to wear shorts in Nov-March...
I don't need any scientific evidence to prove anything... I already know what's happening though experience.

Man made or not, the Earth is changing.

The dfw-tx area has not had a winter this season. You see people walking around with short sleeves in a time when cars should be stuck in snow. Been coming here for 15 years and Ive never seen this before. Asked old timers too and they're equally amazed yet you see and hear deniers in the media rabidly parroting their talking points. Sadly, most conservatives believe these talking heads over their own five senses.

All this "winter" there has been a lot of mayflies flying around too, by the way. Yes, mayflies from nov to march!

Anyhow, wtf is up with you deniers? You think the industrial revolution, deforestation, nuclear power plants, bp, fukushima, chernobyl, depleted uranium, fracking, mercury in rivers and oceans, chemical warfare, exxon valdez, nuclear detonations, etc amount to nothing? Everything just dissipates?

How can you be so willfully blind? What is your motivation? What is your agenda?

Originally posted by mc_squared
reply to post by pasiphae

 

once upon a time climate change could be discussed without every other post saying something like "here we go again with the global warming crap".

Once upon a time ATS was also a place with A LOT of intelligent posters who could actually:

1) think for themselves
2) discern actual facts from propaganda-laced bullsh**
3) deny ignorance, instead of embracing it in a sea of phony fringe groupthink


Now it's merely going along with the rest of the conspiracy crowd. It doesn't matter what the facts are. The important thing is to go against whatever you think the so-called "mainstream" opinion is. It also helps to be really cynical. Simply doing that means you are automatically in-the-know and everybody else is a clueless sheep. Or something.





Honestly I'm a total conspiracy theorist myself - it's why I started coming to ATS. But it's hard to watch how utterly gullible, hypocritical and manipulated 95% of so-called conspiracy theorists around here are these days.


The man made climate change issue is the perfect example of that:


- The people who scream the most about it being "alarmism" are usually the ones who automatically subscribe to all the alarmist rhetoric about it being a hoax and a giant scam, and how there's really an ice age coming blah blah blah...

- The people who go on and on about how "politicized" the whole thing is are usually the ones who post all their evidence from clearly biased political sources that already know they can't win the scientific debate, so they deliberately turn it into a political one.

- The people who scream "follow the money" seem to have no concept of how much money there is tied up in the other side - i.e. "the establishment". The plutocrats who have all their wealth and power reserved in fossil fuels and finite resources, in an economy that is dependent on overconsumption and gross environmental negligence.



Considering these perspectives around here unfortunately requires distinct possession of the 3 faculties I listed above, and that is just a really really rare find these days

I once prepared a thread unequivocally PROVING why man made climate change is indeed real, why it is happening right now, and why there's a massive conspiracy to deny it.

I never bothered posting it though because it had too many big words and concepts that you had to actually stop and think about, so really what's the point?..

You hit every nail on the head! Reading this post should be required to post on this subforum.

Even though my vocabulary is not the most extensive, I'm sure I would enjoy reading that potential thread you are keeping under wraps. I am sure many people would learn a lot from it, even those that, either through fear or idiocy, reject reason and progress while fighting to conserve their fabricated beliefs.

reply to post by pasiphae


I agree with you, the attitudes people log onto ATS with are UGLY. That's Datroof.

It's like, everyone is just waiting for a reply so they can try to one-up the other person.

Nobody can conjecture anymore, or use their imagination.

And if you go a bit "out to space" you get some old crusty mean member that comes in with pie charts and 20 links telling you whatever you think you wanted to talk about isn't going to be talked about because they said so and they have charts and numbers.

The new members just try to argue or get their post count up most of the time, and the old members are so distraught that their good ole ATS just aint the same anymore that they come into every thread just itching to leave a reply that says;

"you stink, your ideas stink, i'm awesome, look at my 5,000 post count, [insert sarcastic witty remark], oh and here's a pie chart that says your wrong"

I totally get you OP, it's hard to scroll down past the OP sometimes, and other times it's hard to even read a threads OP because it was written so arrogantly with little to no factual information to back up their thoughts. And yes people, opinions and facts aren't the same thing.

I've really been trying to be a good member lately, and encourage good conversation and debate, i just wish others would adopt this philosophy.

Let me know when you wanna talk about climate change, we can have a nice long conversation about it all night if you'd like!

Thanks for posting this

Originally posted by pasiphae
once upon a time climate change could be discussed without every other post saying something like "here we go again with the global warming crap". is this no longer a forum we can discuss climate change without the battle? or am i the only one who comes here anymore that actually believes in climate change (and not the cyclical kind that happens all the time that humans have no involvement in)?. has everyone else left because it's not worth the argument?

i'm really disappointed.

and now i expect a bunch of people to comment about how stupid i am to believe climate change has been accelerated by humans.

edit on 5-3-2012 by pasiphae because: typos

You aren't stupid at all.

As for the science-denying backlash and criticism you might receive...I blame the Baby Boomers. Seriously...how many people do you know GenX or younger who OR in their 70 yrs + that just thinks it's all because of Jesus or whatever?

As with most things irrational, kooky, selfish, extremist, and in denial of reality the Baby Boomers can be found leading the charge into over-consumptive oblivion.