Evidence for the Spirit/Soul

reply to post by masqua

I had an Oobe, it was unforgettable and I was floating weightlessly above my body. this is why I do not believe that the soul has mass.

So, you were floating above your body. And, you interprete this to be your SOUL floating.

What makes you belief that you were floating "weightlessly""? Do astronauts who float in space have mass? Of course, they do. Have you considered that 'out-of-body' experiences involve some form of anti-gravity event.

Snopes.com seems to confirm MacDougall's experiments: Multiple human bodies experienced weight loss at death, while dogs did not lose weight as death.

My problem with your initial post was that you did not qualify your point as being an opinion; rather, you asserted it as a categorical statement of fact.

Originally posted by Cataclysm
So, you were floating above your body. And, you interprete this to be your SOUL floating.

It indicated bodiless consciousness. This, to me, could be associated to a 'soul'. So, yes.

What makes you belief that you were floating "weightlessly""?

Because I was consciously aware of floating near the ceiling above and to the left of my body lying in a bed below. I felt no weight whatsoever.

Do astronauts who float in space have mass? Of course, they do. Have you considered that 'out-of-body' experiences involve some form of anti-gravity event.

Since I was not 'in space', I consider gravity to be at play during the incident.

Snopes.com seems to confirm MacDougall's experiments: Multiple human bodies experienced weight loss at death, while dogs did not lose weight as death.

Obviously, you didn't read the entire article, but I'll leave it at that.

My problem with your initial post was that you did not qualify your point as being an opinion; rather, you asserted it as a categorical statement of fact.

It isn't just my opinion. This is why I quoted Carl Jung in that initial post.

The OP asked "DO you believe the soul/spirit exists?". I do and said so, but dismiss any notion that there is matter involved in the soul. It is not constructed of anything to be found on the periodic table, imo. The 21 grams suggested by Dr. Duncan MacDougall was a desire to prove, through questionable experimentation a century ago, to appeal to and make a name for himself with a certain community to prove the existence of the soul. It was certainly never proven by him nor ANY scientist since.

Considering the advances made since the early 20th century, would it not be an established fact by now if it actually were true?

reply to post by masqua


perhaps the experiment should be repeated with modern techcnology...

The weight of the body shouldn't change at death... that i agree with because as you stated, the soul is not matter as far as we can tell.

By using a digital scale someone could accurately record any loss of weight at death... And if there is an actual loss of weight no matter how insignifigant, perhaps there is some truth to this idea.

The thing that struck me the most about that experiment is the "sudden loss" of this 21 grams at the moment of death... a "sudden" loss would suggest something leaving the body

Originally posted by Akragon
perhaps the experiment should be repeated with modern techcnology...

I'd be shocked if no-one thought to do exactly that over the last 105 years. Why, if there is anything to it, would it be left to a near myth rather than proven beyond a doubt since the weight of a single atom has been measured? What atoms would compose a soul? If MacDougall is right, I'm sure the element of soul would be on the periodic table by now.

If I may ask... why is it so important that the soul must weigh 21 grams? Can the idea of a soul only be taken seriously today if it is perhaps possible to capture it and cut it into two portions, each weighing 10.5 grams? Does it need to be held in the hand like a hummingbird before it is dissected and studied through a microscope?

Is the soul no more than just a 'thing'?

Originally posted by masqua

Originally posted by Akragon
perhaps the experiment should be repeated with modern techcnology...

I'd be shocked if no-one thought to do exactly that over the last 105 years. Why, if there is anything to it, would it be left to a near myth rather than proven beyond a doubt since the weight of a single atom has been measured? What atoms would compose a soul? If MacDougall is right, I'm sure the element of soul would be on the periodic table by now.

If I may ask... why is it so important that the soul must weigh 21 grams? Can the idea of a soul only be taken seriously today if it is perhaps possible to capture it and cut it into two portions, each weighing 10.5 grams? Does it need to be held in the hand like a hummingbird before it is dissected and studied through a microscope?

Is the soul no more than just a 'thing'?

Personally i don't care if you can weigh the soul or not... notice in the OP i stated specifically that i KNOW the soul exists... Though i think in this day and age, people need to associate the soul with something phyiscal, tangable if you will. Most people find its hard to believe something exists without being able to see it.

I think the soul exists in a dimension that litterally overlaps our own physical being... i've heard the soul consists of seven spiritual bodies... one of which can actually be seen by some people including myself. Its interesting... i can't see ghosts or spirits of any kind... i can't see auras. i have litterally no interdimensional contact with any beings other then myself and those in the physical world... no angels no demons... nothing.... yet i can see this second spiritual body.

I've seen (read about) these experiments repeated using modern tech, and the conclusion was that the weight loss was due to gasses escaping the body (air leaving the lungs, methane out your butt, etc.), which makes a lot more sense than a soul having significant weight. Personally I don't believe in a soul, I see no reason or need, and the whole idea doesn't resonate with me, to the point of seeming farcical. Just because I don't have the last few pages of a book, I don't feel the need to construct a narrative to finish the story.

reply to post by masqua


Fair enough.

Look, it is not necessary that the soul has weight in order to prove the existence of the soul.

I believe that humans have souls but simply am not inclined to discount the possibility that they also have mass.

Since I was not 'in space', I consider gravity to be at play during the incident.

Consider the possibility that the soul is comprised of subatomic matter. How would gravity affect this matter? Quantum gravity attempts to reconcile quantum mechanics with general relativity.

And, then there is the issue of "dark matter": Does dark matter have mass? One would have to believe that it does, how else would it exert gravitational forces. Yet, "dark matter" has not been observed.

reply to post by Akragon


There was a scientist who claims that the soul weighs precisely 3 grams. Other scientists have noted, by weighing the body before and after death, that there were very small changes in weight. Additionally, special cameras taking photos of the death recorded a strange substance, invisible to the human eye, leaving the body.

There is evidence of a soul...but we cannot study the naked soul; only the circumstances of its release.

reply to post by masqua


let me ask you this one question, why is it then, when in the midst of an OBE can we move objects?

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Akragon

 

There was a scientist who claims that the soul weighs precisely 3 grams. Other scientists have noted, by weighing the body before and after death, that there were very small changes in weight. Additionally, special cameras taking photos of the death recorded a strange substance, invisible to the human eye, leaving the body.

There is evidence of a soul...but we cannot study the naked soul; only the circumstances of its release.

What about the circumstances of its existance?

Even the meaning or purpose of Life itself?

I wonder... have you read This thread?

reply to post by Akragon


ohh thats cool, we do much the same, except we go from the garden to the clothes to the body parts...

name is seperate and last, because names are a different topic than soul....

I like that very much

as for proof i have none nor does science or religion,but as for me i do belive in the soul,im a beliver in the tibetan theory that were in a continues endless cycle of death and rebirth but my theory on it is that were only in the cycle until we become aware of certin theorys,teachings/ideas and only then are we able to hold on to the very human ideal of choice i belive once were aware will b able to choose to continue in the cycle or once again become one and everthing that is are universe and beyond........jus sum food for thought,the physics of consciousness by evan harris walker,the tibetan book of the dead(earlyer editions recommend)and inner paths to outer by rick strassman,M.D and others.all very good books that are very well written and greatly touch the subject matter at hand

reply to post by thirdeye3spiral


Well said my friend...

I actually have a thread on The Book of the Dead too!!

It is a very interesting read...

Thank you for your reply

reply to post by thirdeye3spiral


It's actually very much something like that. Except supposedly, there are also various universes or dimensions in which we learn lessons designed to make us as knowledgeable and understanding as the Source itself.

Other than that, I very much like your view.

reply to post by Akragon


That thread has a flawed premise. You assume that we can do those things without training, when the fact is, we do not train because we are too busy pretending to be magpies and gathering shiny things.

reply to post by Starchild23


You are incorrect... i assume nothing...

I said specifically "take it as you will"

I mearly asked people to read an article...

The only thing i assumed... is that people can read

Originally posted by Starchild23
reply to post by Akragon

 

That thread has a flawed premise. You assume that we can do those things without training, when the fact is, we do not train because we are too busy pretending to be magpies and gathering shiny things.

I am curious, what do you mean by 'training'?

reply to post by OpinionatedB


Starchild got banned. I wonder why

reply to post by Cataclysm

Jesus Christ, settle down. He's not trying to say that the spirit/soul doesn't exist. He's just saying that it probably wouldn't have any physical weight.

Originally posted by OpinionatedB
reply to post by masqua

 

let me ask you this one question, why is it then, when in the midst of an OBE can we move objects?

When my OBE happened, it scared me so much that the only thing I could move was myself back in my body.

Seriously.

I didn't flow back in... I slammed.

Now, about moving objects during an OBE... could you please tell me, or, better yet, show me some evidence of that? I've never heard of it before.