My question to Christians.

reply to post by Wonders


The Law that the OP was speaking of was the Levitical law which is for the Jews, not the Gentiles. This is the law that I speak of when I say there is no one who can keep it fully. I am not talking about loving God and neighbor ( although I would be hard pressed to find one who could love with all heart, soul, mind and strength). The Law has nothing to do with our salvation. Jesus commented on the great faith of 2 people in the bible. They were both Gentiles- not under the Law.

There is a huge difference between the Law and good works. We are commissioned to continue in good works for the benefit of others- not for the accomplishment of our salvation. If we could accomplish our own salvation then there is no need for a savior- then He died in vain.

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by Wonders

 

The Law that the OP was speaking of was the Levitical law which is for the Jews, not the Gentiles. This is the law that I speak of when I say there is no one who can keep it fully. I am not talking about loving God and neighbor ( although I would be hard pressed to find one who could love with all heart, soul, mind and strength). The Law has nothing to do with our salvation. Jesus commented on the great faith of 2 people in the bible. They were both Gentiles- not under the Law.

There is a huge difference between the Law and good works. We are commissioned to continue in good works for the benefit of others- not for the accomplishment of our salvation. If we could accomplish our own salvation then there is no need for a savior- then He died in vain.

What does the word SUM mean to you? I have shared the words of Jesus to back MY beliefs, please do me the same courtesy of showing us where and from whom you get YOUR ideas, ask yourself whether they abide with the teachings of Jesus. Anyone who hears his teachings and DOES them will be like a person who built their house on a rock. People wanted to kill Jesus because of the words he spoke. Why ramble on about Jews n Gentiles, Jesus knew his words and teachings would remain long after his death and that they would be taught throughout the world. You can claim to follow Jesus, and then go against others who share His teachings, defending your beliefs as though Jesus lived and taught in vain.

In a nutshell. To beleive in the Bible is to suspend reality. When you question the ones of which you speak, they leave out the "good parts".of which there is no logic or the fact you have to suspend logical thinking in order to "beleive".

Normally when one turns into a hard core christian, there seems to allways be a "hardening of the heart" & " a narrowing of the mind".......Santa is not real....But Jesus is..... go figure.

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by Wonders

 

The Law that the OP was speaking of was the Levitical law which is for the Jews, not the Gentiles. This is the law that I speak of when I say there is no one who can keep it fully. I am not talking about loving God and neighbor ( although I would be hard pressed to find one who could love with all heart, soul, mind and strength). The Law has nothing to do with our salvation. Jesus commented on the great faith of 2 people in the bible. They were both Gentiles- not under the Law.

There is a huge difference between the Law and good works. We are commissioned to continue in good works for the benefit of others- not for the accomplishment of our salvation. If we could accomplish our own salvation then there is no need for a savior- then He died in vain.

What does the word SUM mean to you? I have shared the words of Jesus to back MY beliefs, please do me the same courtesy of showing us where and from whom you get YOUR ideas, ask yourself whether they abide with the teachings of Jesus. Anyone who hears his teachings and DOES them will be like a person who built their house on a rock. People wanted to kill Jesus because of the words he spoke. Why ramble on about Jews n Gentiles, Jesus knew his words and teachings would remain long after his death and that they would be taught throughout the world. You can claim to follow Jesus, and then go against others who share His teachings, defending your beliefs as though Jesus lived and taught in vain.

edit on 10/01/11 by Wonders because:

John 5:24- (Jesus' words)- Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:28-29- More of Jesus' words- Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

John 6:47- Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Luke 7:9- (where I spoke of Jesus commenting on great faith- This was the Centurion((not under the law))-When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

As far as what the word SUM means to me- I am not quite sure what you are getting at- but it means to me- a number obtained as the result of adding numbers.

These are my beliefs based on the spoken words of Jesus. Everlasting life is attained by believing in Him, not by works or adherence to the Law. I challenge you to find a verse where Jesus says that everlasting life is attained by following the law.

reply to post by micmerci

Believing in Him is about believing in the truth of his teachings, not merely believing in his existance, we have already gone over some of the verses but here they are:
Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 3:15 But Jesus said, "It should be done, for we must carry out all that God requires." So John agreed to baptize him.

Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 10:25-One day an expert in religious law stood up to test Jesus by asking him this question: "Teacher, what should I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus replied, "What does the law of Moses say? How do you read it?" The man answered, "'You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and all your mind.' And, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

John 14:15 "If you love me, obey my commandments.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

John 16:7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

John 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

John 15:26 "When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me.

John 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

John 2:22 After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

John 12:16 At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

Matthew 7:15-27
“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

Matthew 3:7-8 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Prove by the way you live that you have repented of your sins and turned to God.

Proverbs 28:4 Those who forsake the law praise the wicked, but those who keep the law resist them.

Psalm 10:13 Why does the wicked person condemn God, and say in his heart, "God won't call me into account?"

You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that.

reply to post by Wonders


I believe in the truth of the teachings of Jesus. I just believe that He is saying something entirely different than you believe He is saying concerning the Law and concerning salvation. I believe that we are saved by GRACE and not of WORKS lest any man should boast. I believe that GOD so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that Whosoever BELIEVES in Him should have EVERLASTING LIFE.

I believe that attaching WORKS to salvation is diminishing what Jesus did at the cross. Do I believe that we should not perform good works or keep God's commandments? Absolutely not! However, I believe that these have nothing to do with salvation.

This has basically devolved into the age-old debate between grace and works based salvation. I humbly submit to your right to believe as you do. Please allow me the same.

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by Wonders

 

I believe in the truth of the teachings of Jesus. I just believe that He is saying something entirely different than you believe He is saying concerning the Law and concerning salvation. I believe that we are saved by GRACE and not of WORKS lest any man should boast. I believe that GOD so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that Whosoever BELIEVES in Him should have EVERLASTING LIFE.

I believe that attaching WORKS to salvation is diminishing what Jesus did at the cross. Do I believe that we should not perform good works or keep God's commandments? Absolutely not! However, I believe that these have nothing to do with salvation.

This has basically devolved into the age-old debate between grace and works based salvation. I humbly submit to your right to believe as you do. Please allow me the same.

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don't believe me! "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don't listen because you don't belong to God." The people retorted, "You Samaritan devil! Didn't we say all along that you were possessed by a demon?" "No," Jesus said, "I have no demon in me. For I honor my Father--and you dishonor me. -John 8:43-49

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by Wonders

 

I believe in the truth of the teachings of Jesus. I just believe that He is saying something entirely different than you believe He is saying concerning the Law and concerning salvation. I believe that we are saved by GRACE and not of WORKS lest any man should boast. I believe that GOD so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that Whosoever BELIEVES in Him should have EVERLASTING LIFE.

I believe that attaching WORKS to salvation is diminishing what Jesus did at the cross. Do I believe that we should not perform good works or keep God's commandments? Absolutely not! However, I believe that these have nothing to do with salvation.

This has basically devolved into the age-old debate between grace and works based salvation. I humbly submit to your right to believe as you do. Please allow me the same.

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don't believe me! "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don't listen because you don't belong to God." The people retorted, "You Samaritan devil! Didn't we say all along that you were possessed by a demon?" "No," Jesus said, "I have no demon in me. For I honor my Father--and you dishonor me. -John 8:43-49

You disagree with someone therefore they're the children of Satan?

Your mentality is the reason people like you aren't well received. You paint a terrible picture for those who have a legitimate cause that isn't revolved around fear, stupidity, and judgement.

Originally posted by ofNight

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by Wonders

 

I believe in the truth of the teachings of Jesus. I just believe that He is saying something entirely different than you believe He is saying concerning the Law and concerning salvation. I believe that we are saved by GRACE and not of WORKS lest any man should boast. I believe that GOD so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that Whosoever BELIEVES in Him should have EVERLASTING LIFE.

I believe that attaching WORKS to salvation is diminishing what Jesus did at the cross. Do I believe that we should not perform good works or keep God's commandments? Absolutely not! However, I believe that these have nothing to do with salvation.

This has basically devolved into the age-old debate between grace and works based salvation. I humbly submit to your right to believe as you do. Please allow me the same.

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don't believe me! "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don't listen because you don't belong to God." The people retorted, "You Samaritan devil! Didn't we say all along that you were possessed by a demon?" "No," Jesus said, "I have no demon in me. For I honor my Father--and you dishonor me. -John 8:43-49

You disagree with someone therefore they're the children of Satan?

Your mentality is the reason people like you aren't well received. You paint a terrible picture for those who have a legitimate cause that isn't revolved around fear, stupidity, and judgement.

edit on 29-2-2012 by ofNight because: (no reason given)

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
1 John 4:5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
I did not come here to be well recieved, I came so that someone reading this could possibly discern for themselves what is true. Laugh all you want but don't think for one second that I do not study the bible.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

John 18:22 Then one of the Temple guards standing nearby slapped Jesus across the face. "Is that the way to answer the high priest?" he demanded.

Your mentality is that I care more about stars, I'm here to deny ignorance.

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by ofNight

Originally posted by Wonders

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by Wonders

 

I believe in the truth of the teachings of Jesus. I just believe that He is saying something entirely different than you believe He is saying concerning the Law and concerning salvation. I believe that we are saved by GRACE and not of WORKS lest any man should boast. I believe that GOD so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son, that Whosoever BELIEVES in Him should have EVERLASTING LIFE.

I believe that attaching WORKS to salvation is diminishing what Jesus did at the cross. Do I believe that we should not perform good works or keep God's commandments? Absolutely not! However, I believe that these have nothing to do with salvation.

This has basically devolved into the age-old debate between grace and works based salvation. I humbly submit to your right to believe as you do. Please allow me the same.

Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don't believe me! "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me? Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don't listen because you don't belong to God." The people retorted, "You Samaritan devil! Didn't we say all along that you were possessed by a demon?" "No," Jesus said, "I have no demon in me. For I honor my Father--and you dishonor me. -John 8:43-49

You disagree with someone therefore they're the children of Satan?

Your mentality is the reason people like you aren't well received. You paint a terrible picture for those who have a legitimate cause that isn't revolved around fear, stupidity, and judgement.

edit on 29-2-2012 by ofNight because: (no reason given)

I've said it before and I'll say it again.
1 John 4:5 They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
I did not come here to be well recieved, I came so that someone reading this could possibly discern for themselves what is true. Laugh all you want but don't think for one second that I do not study the bible.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

John 18:22 Then one of the Temple guards standing nearby slapped Jesus across the face. "Is that the way to answer the high priest?" he demanded.

Your mentality is that I care more about stars, I'm here to deny ignorance.

There's absolutely no point in even responding.

You win, hallelujah!

reply to post by ofNight


You have witnessed a prime example of the behavior that has turned many away from Christianity. My only hope is that I can demonstrate the love of Christ and that people will be drawn to Jesus as a result. Not drawn to a church or religion- drawn to Jesus.

BTW, thanks for noticing the hostility directed at my posts and responding.

reply to post by ofNight


I understand. My sins are continually before me, I am a sinner and have not considered myself to be saved for a long time. I went to church today and the weight of my wicked ways crushed me. I feel as though I am being reserved for judgement. I'm sorry Micmercy, I should not have responded the way I have. I really do deserve to be laughed at and mistreated, but I still believe that all interested in this subject should try to understand the bible for what it is saying, not for what we hope it says, to put all preconceived and biased ideas aside and to see the message for the meaning. Jesus said that in the last days there will be many false doctrines, and that those who believe these false doctrines will be given the same reward as the one who teach them because when the blind lead the blind, both fall into a ditch but the one who teaches the false doctrines will have the harsher judgement. I hope I never get to that stage where I cease the desire to learn about the God I believe exists, that my studying will be continual throughout my days. I would like my apathy towards the works of faith to diminish, for faith without works is dead. I have been dead in my lack of love, my zeal for the words of the God I disobey, are like a gong, just noise. Thank you both.

reply to post by Wonders


Wow, thank you . I believe you are sincere in both your apology and in your desire to serve the Lord. We all struggle with our sinful nature so don't let that separate you from fellowship with the father. We have an advocate with God- Christ Jesus. We are seen as righteous through Him. God Bless you and keep the faith

Lord God is all things; he is the alpha and the omega. All you have to do is, look in the mirror. Then ask you self this, Did I Crawl out of the Mud? why do people feel the need to find acceptance/love/partners? why do people morn when someone they know dies?

so when death comes, is it Game over? no reset button? Maybe Part II.... To question life; itself points to something greater than life itself. imho

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by ofNight

 

I understand. My sins are continually before me, I am a sinner and have not considered myself to be saved for a long time. I went to church today and the weight of my wicked ways crushed me. I feel as though I am being reserved for judgement. I'm sorry Micmercy, I should not have responded the way I have. I really do deserve to be laughed at and mistreated, but I still believe that all interested in this subject should try to understand the bible for what it is saying, not for what we hope it says, to put all preconceived and biased ideas aside and to see the message for the meaning. Jesus said that in the last days there will be many false doctrines, and that those who believe these false doctrines will be given the same reward as the one who teach them because when the blind lead the blind, both fall into a ditch but the one who teaches the false doctrines will have the harsher judgement. I hope I never get to that stage where I cease the desire to learn about the God I believe exists, that my studying will be continual throughout my days. I would like my apathy towards the works of faith to diminish, for faith without works is dead. I have been dead in my lack of love, my zeal for the words of the God I disobey, are like a gong, just noise. Thank you both.

No matter what book you read I can read the same exact book and come away with a different meaning. We are all teachers and students and we can all learn something from another.

I think what the other poster was trying to convey is the fact that Jesus himself came and died for a reason. The law is lifted and we are saved by Grace as long as you believe in him, Christ Jesus.

Many Christians come away with a different love for the Word and try to defend such love. It is my opinion though there is no need to defend a love that is freely given to all who will listen.

Each myth and religion has been inspired by a belief of something greater than ourselves and I think if we all listen with an open heart we can find the Word everywhere in each myth and or Religion.

God is everywhere and each one of us. Jesus claimed to be the son of God and did many works. He did not boast and everything he did, he did out of love for man. The sinner was the one whom Jesus wanted to be around. Isn't it funny how most will shy away from someone who is different than them. People are quick to judge another and place them self on a pedestal as though they are somehow "better than". Jesus showed us love and compassion for his brother/sister. He loved no matter what and even asked God to forgive the one's who trespassed against him. That is true love right there!

Originally posted by Wonders
reply to post by ofNight

 

I understand. My sins are continually before me, I am a sinner and have not considered myself to be saved for a long time. I went to church today and the weight of my wicked ways crushed me. I feel as though I am being reserved for judgement. I'm sorry Micmercy, I should not have responded the way I have. I really do deserve to be laughed at and mistreated, but I still believe that all interested in this subject should try to understand the bible for what it is saying, not for what we hope it says, to put all preconceived and biased ideas aside and to see the message for the meaning. Jesus said that in the last days there will be many false doctrines, and that those who believe these false doctrines will be given the same reward as the one who teach them because when the blind lead the blind, both fall into a ditch but the one who teaches the false doctrines will have the harsher judgement. I hope I never get to that stage where I cease the desire to learn about the God I believe exists, that my studying will be continual throughout my days. I would like my apathy towards the works of faith to diminish, for faith without works is dead. I have been dead in my lack of love, my zeal for the words of the God I disobey, are like a gong, just noise. Thank you both.

I appreciate your response -- I apologize for being harsh. You're most definitely entitled to your beliefs, and I'm very happy to hear that they have provided you strength and comfort, you deserve that!

The, "Child of Satan" thing was the only thing that got me going', I was having a bad day.

Thank you for your response! I hope you're having a great week.

Originally posted by micmerci
reply to post by ofNight

 

You have witnessed a prime example of the behavior that has turned many away from Christianity. My only hope is that I can demonstrate the love of Christ and that people will be drawn to Jesus as a result. Not drawn to a church or religion- drawn to Jesus.

BTW, thanks for noticing the hostility directed at my posts and responding.

No problem my friend! Even though I don't identify with everything in Christianity, I still greatly believe that we all have room for improvement and all fall short of perfection. Love is the strongest force!

reply to post by seedofchucky


Well your wrong off the bat. Just saying "im a christian" does not make you a christian. I wrote to you of the spiritual implications of what it means to be born again (and despite what was written around here...the gospel of John is one of the strongest agreed upon books in the NT as far as its authenticity. Being born again is FROM HEAVEN. It is a spiritual rebirth from ABOVE (in the Greek). You can't FAKE IT. I remember the exact day, hour, and minutes when I was born again.

Saying "im a christian" anyone can say that. Being Born Again from heaven...nobody can fake that.

I believe the original question is an important one, though an answer may be a long time away. What I find interesting, however, is the very general idea that once somebody has joined a church or given themselves to the Lord, so to speak, the person then is of the belief that they have been given eternal knowledge of the world. For example, I have known several people who for different reasons suddenly turn to a Christian faith with gusto, and then proceed to tell me that all is revealed to them. When I take the time to ask what it this knowledge that they've gained, they explain it is more powerful than mere words. My guess is many Christians learn a phrase or concept from the bible to prove understanding, and thus so many differing interpretations. When you mix blind faith with a book filled with literate contradictions, an insightful conversation with a Christian will always be impossible.
On a personal level, the question I ask most of Christians is, if the bible is the true word of God, then wouldn't it be paramount to study the language it was originally written in so as to read the words as truly written? If they are the words of God, shouldn't such a study seem like a tiny task considering the rewards? Alas, the majority of Christians will not. Too often it seems that the love they have for the creator is strong, but not strong enough to actually work towards knowledge and understanding. Better still to sing some songs, be led to believe that power and knowledge has been revealed and given to them, and sprout a paragraph here and there, rather than learn the original language and read the words as they were written in the first instance, thus bringing a truer understanding of the book that many will be happy to die for. After all, by their own beliefs it is the most important book here on planet Earth.
Are there any Christians that have by chance studied the book in it's original language? I would love to hear if the words moved you in a different and profound way, and what the differences might be.

reply to post by InsideYourMind


ofNight,
One more thought provoking question. If there is only one God then why are there so many different "religions"?

Originally posted by dign4it
reply to post by InsideYourMind

 

ofNight,
One more thought provoking question. If there is only one God then why are there so many different "religions"?

My opinion is that it's multiple paths to the same destination. Humans trying to describe something that our brains cannot truly grasp -- I don't believe we have the capabilities of understanding God, we are literally physically limited.