My question to Christians.

reply to post by Whatifitdidhappen


Those refer to This...

Originally posted by Whatifitdidhappen
i have a question to the christians responding to the thread.

What do these verses mean to you:

Matthew 5:17-Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 5:19-Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

edit on 25-2-2012 by Whatifitdidhappen because: (no reason given)

What these verses mean to me are- 1. As I posted earlier, Jesus did fulfill the Law and now the church is under grace. 2. Jesus was demonstrating how impossible it was for us to be perfect within the Law thus showing the need for a Savior. Another verse in this chapter states that our adherence to the Law needed to exceed that of the Pharisees in order to be righteous. The Pharisees were known at the time to be the strictest adherents to the Law so exceeding them is basically impossible. Basically Jesus took on our sin so that we could become righteous through Him.

Originally posted by Whatifitdidhappen
i have a question to the christians responding to the thread.

What do these verses mean to you:

Matthew 5:17-Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 5:19-Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

edit on 25-2-2012 by Whatifitdidhappen because: (no reason given)

No Christian should argue with these verses.
The first you've quoted is simple: Christ is the fulfilment of the law. What He's saying here is that the Law and the Prophets were in effect pointing to His coming. Paul talks about this too; the law was designed not to save people, but to show them that they couldn't save themselves. Christ, in contrast, kept every last letter of the law, and was in fact the standard on which the law was based (remember here, God is outside of time, and Christ is "the Lamb that was slain before the foundation of the world").

Regarding the second verse...
Paul talks about this too, stating that whatever you live by is the standard by which you will be judged. Live under the law, you will be judged by the law. Live under grace, and you will be judged according to grace. This is, in essence, the very reason why Christ came: because "all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God". None of us, however "perfect", can keep the requirements of the law.

Christ, on the other hand, fulfilled the requirements of the law. That doesn't just mean the ten commandments (though He did that) and it doesn't just mean prophecies about what He would come to do (though He did that, too). Jesus Christ is the focal point of ALL of Scripture, both before and after the passages about His time here on earth as man.

Jesus Christ was there in the offering of Isaac ("God Himself will provide a lamb, my son")
in a meeting with Jacob ("you have wrestled with God...")
in Egypt (take a lamb without spot or blemish, break none of its bones, spread its blood on your doorposts, and the angel of death will pass over you)
in Psalm 22
in Isaiah 53

I could go on, and on, and on...
the point is, Jesus didn't just fulfil the requirements of the law, or specific prophecies. Jesus was the fulfilment in that... all that was foreshadowed in Scripture, all that these events (and so many others) represent... was found in Christ.

Yeah...what ^ he said!!

reply to post by ofNight


I'll give you the best answer in the shortest form; most Christians don't take their faith seriously enough, how's that?(In the USA at least, from my experience.)

a perfect example are these "Christians" saying there's no need to bother with the OT. All that does is lead to crappy exegesis. (And for the record, I'm not judging their salvation or their faith, just their ability to rational such statements) I challenge any christian to say that the OT isn't necessary when the fact of the matter is the OT was what Jesus quoted the most in the gospels! How can you understand the book of Revelations without cross-referencing it with Daniel? Or Ezekiel, or Isaiah? You CAN'T.

OP if you want to see true christianity, for the most part, my advice to you is to look at other countries, particularly when in those countries your faith can cost you your life. People there will walk 20 miles for a church service, people there will willingly die for their faith, while most of us in the states can't get our sorry butts out to church on Sunday night because "the game" is on.

But to get to your specific points: Why don't they acknowledge whats in there? Because they let pastors read the bible for them, in limited amounts, once a week, period. How many hours a day do you think the "average" christian spends in bible study? Go to ANY church and you'll often find the number on a bible study night is usually less than HALF from sunday morning. In short, laziness, or messed up priorities.

The food thing: Some ppl have become trapped by the OT dietary laws,but here's the thing; they're not even Jewish! The bible also says that if you think something is wrong (and the bible doesn't say anything about the subject) and yet you do it anyway, you have sinned against yourself. And this is why it happens. Again lack of study and crappy exegesis. (Or a sincere attempt to be more "holy" but no work man does is holy, only what the spirit does THROUGH us is holy.) Again, confusion due to a lack of understanding.

The sabbath isn't as important as assembling ourselves together on a regular basis, and the answer for THAT is the same as the reason for the sabbath: it is to relax, remember who WE are, and remember who HE is. It's also important to have fellowship b/c satan attacks those that are loners, it is for OUR benefit, not God's. We're the weak ones here, God (and this may appear shocking) doesn't need our help. I know, God is always broke, and can never get things done according to what the TV guys say, it's not true.

The final answer is that sadly, Christians interpret the bible THEIR way. How many rely on the promptings from the Holy Spirit? How many ask for wisdom? How many ask for His help before they even open the bible? Or, worse yet, how many rely on a MAN (pastor) to interpret the bible for THEM? (Which is a slap in the face to Jesus since he tore the veil separating the holy of holies from the inner court allowing ALL to have access to God instead of a priest intercession for us)

I hope this answers your question.

Originally posted by micmerci

Originally posted by Whatifitdidhappen
i have a question to the christians responding to the thread.

What do these verses mean to you:

Matthew 5:17-Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

Matthew 5:19-Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

edit on 25-2-2012 by Whatifitdidhappen because: (no reason given)

What these verses mean to me are- 1. As I posted earlier, Jesus did fulfill the Law and now the church is under grace. 2. Jesus was demonstrating how impossible it was for us to be perfect within the Law thus showing the need for a Savior. Another verse in this chapter states that our adherence to the Law needed to exceed that of the Pharisees in order to be righteous. The Pharisees were known at the time to be the strictest adherents to the Law so exceeding them is basically impossible. Basically Jesus took on our sin so that we could become righteous through Him.

This. Dead on. No more, no less.

Originally posted by Awen24

Originally posted by ofNightMy issue is this:

Why do so many pick and choose what they acknowledge in the Bible? The words are right in front of you, why don't you acknowledge even the undesirable parts? Why do Christians get haircuts? Why do some Christians eat shellfish? Sure, you could say that a lot of beliefs written in the Bible are no longer relevant, but if they aren't relevant, why are they still there? I was taught to believe (and correct me if I'm wrong) that the Bible is the word of God, according to a minister I once knew who made that claim.

How can some Christians say homosexuality is wrong, yet work on the Sabbath day? I suppose my issue is that I don't completely understand how such a large group of people could claim to be Christian when they don't follow the very book they claim to believe, and every part of it.

edit on 25-2-2012 by ofNight because: (no reason given)

Thanks for the post. There are some good questions in there.
There are really a couple of answers to what you've written - or at least, two categories:

1) "Why do people pick and choose what to believe...?".

They shouldn't. As you've quoted, "All Scripture is God-breathed, and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness" (1 Timothy 3:16). There is no excuse, either Biblically or in logical terms, for ignoring parts of Scripture. Yes, there are things in the Bible that are distasteful for modern audiences; but I have never, ever encountered anything in Scripture that is beyond a fair, logical, and above all, *right* explanation.

I'm sorry not to attack but a simple a debate that i just cant wrap my head around logically. You say you never find anything that is beyond fair logical and above all right explaination.

Deuteronomy 22:
13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her
14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, “I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,”
15 then the girl’s father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate.
16 The girl’s father will say to the elders, “I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her.
17 Now he has slandered her and said, ‘I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.’ But here is the proof of my daughter’s virginity.” Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town,
18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him.
19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silverb and give them to the girl’s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

20 If, however, the charge is true and no proof of the girl’s virginity can be found,
21 she shall be brought to the door of her father’s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done a disgraceful thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father’s house. You must purge the evil from among you.

22 If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,
24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a girl pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.
26 Do nothing to the girl; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders his neighbor,
27 for the man found the girl out in the country, and though the betrothed girl screamed, there was no one to rescue her.

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl’s father fifty shekels of silver.c He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

That seems pretty extreme to me especially as a guideline from God.

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. Deuteronomy 17:12

Theres much more evidence of these callous indoctrinated laws of God throughout the bible. How can we condone and worship a God of this nature? I only ask because i too am looking for an answer.

reply to post by Whatifitdidhappen

Theres much more evidence of these callous indoctrinated laws of God throughout the bible. How can we condone and worship a God of this nature? I only ask because i too am looking for an answer.

The Father of Jesus isn't of that nature

But again i guess all i see is still just an interperation of the text which is inherently vague. While most of the rest of the bible has pinpoint adverse application and 'sacred' but strict laws. Not only that but countless times God actually allows the devil to cause very tragic and horrible things to believers for no other reason than to 'test' the subjects faith. And asking Abraham to kill his own son just to have him stop seems meaningless and cruel to me for an all powerful God to construct. I guess after reading all that i have i cant realistically advocate the things attributed to God in the Bible as my spiritual path. That is to say i dont have hatred toward christians nor do want to instigate or anger anyone. Though i know this is a heated topic especially when you when question the foundation of your spirit. So please dont take what i say as offensive.

I've been asking these questions for a long time though and still havent recieved an answer that really makes sense to me. but it interests me to no end.

Originally posted by Whatifitdidhappen
But again i guess all i see is still just an interperation of the text which is inherently vague. While most of the rest of the bible has pinpoint adverse application and 'sacred' but strict laws. Not only that but countless times God actually allows the devil to cause very tragic and horrible things to believers for no other reason than to 'test' the subjects faith. And asking Abraham to kill his own son just to have him stop seems meaningless and cruel to me for an all powerful God to construct. I guess after reading all that i have i cant realistically advocate the things attributed to God in the Bible as my spiritual path. That is to say i dont have hatred toward christians nor do want to instigate or anger anyone. Though i know this is a heated topic especially when you when question the foundation of your spirit. So please dont take what i say as offensive.

I've been asking these questions for a long time though and still havent recieved an answer that really makes sense to me. but it interests me to no end.

I'm sorry you haven't received the answers by now, that's total crap. I can help you with the Isaac one however.

The jews were a "stubborn people", so oftentimes in order to get things through to them he would have to do things over & over or show precedent. (Seriously) Isaac was one such precedent. Abraham represented God the Father, and Isaac represented God the Son. This was a savior theme played over and over in the Ot so that when the real savior came (Christ) the jews would recognize him. The Jews DID recognize him, it was the "religious authority" of the day that didn't. (Personally I think they did, they just didn't feel like giving up their power)

As for some of the reasons why God wiped out entire cities and the like, the answer for SOME of that is some of them were demonic half-breeds. (Nephilim) Their sole purpose was to pollute the genetic gene pool so no savior COULD come. (Hence why the bible says noah was perfect in his generations. It didn't mean he was sin free, it meant he wasn't polluted, his bloodline.)

I hope this helps some.

Like the OP, in no way do I wish to offend or anything of that nature.
I ask this question because of confusion and the need to understand something that I have never had the opportunity to ask a christian before.
So here it goes..
Why do people not question the legitimacy of Jesus. From what I have read and can gather, God in the old testament is fairly straightforward in saying that his word is the only word you should follow and that people exactly like Jesus would try and corrupt that message or trick you.
Considering that God is meant to be the 'top dog' so to speak, have you even considered that maybe Jesus is not who he claims?
I just dont understand why you ignore god for someone else, I'snt a god ment to be the most important?
Even in the bible, Jesus is fairly suspicious considering he makes false prophecies and completely goes against the word of God.

I don't know.
It just doesn't seem right to me
I hope someone can help me out here.

You guys should really make your own thread for your own questions...

Its not really fair to the OP...

reply to post by IgnorantSpecies


Jesus fulfilled over 300 prophecies to prove he was messiah, but I sense that that's not your real angst.

You mention false prophecies, can you be more specific?

Here's a quick one though (providing you believe the bible text.)

When Jesus raised Lazarus, there is a belief that the soul stays with the body for 3 days, then departs. (Jewish belief) When Jesus commanded Lazarus back, this proved not only could he raise the dead, but could command it to come back FROM paradise. (Lazarus was a righteous man, everyone knew where he was headed) Since Jesus was able to do this, that gave him extreme credibility.

Originally posted by Akragon
You guys should really make your own thread for your own questions...

Its not really fair to the OP...

Youre right, i appologize to the OP and i retract my questions. But great thread though thanks for the ones who answered my posts, But i'll just say i'm sorry the answers given still doesnt satisfy me.

reply to post by schadenfreude

Even if Jesus was legitimate I still think its weird to ignore God.

100 False Bible Prophecies

I think when you look at it from a fair perspective there is just as much reason to think Jesus is not legitimate, as there is to think that he is. Because when it comes down to it, everything religion says about the bible is opinion based on a percieved message from the book, which makes it fairly susceptible to confusion and misunderstanding.

Originally posted by Whatifitdidhappen

Originally posted by Akragon
You guys should really make your own thread for your own questions...

Its not really fair to the OP...

Youre right, i appologize to the OP and i retract my questions. But great thread though thanks for the ones who answered my posts, But i'll just say i'm sorry the answers given still doesnt satisfy me.

It's completely fine my friend! I appreciate the consideration, I find all this discussion very interesting, please by all means ask all the questions necessary, I'm looking for answers just as all of you are! I appreciate the posts thus far, very interesting stuff!

reply to post by ofNight



Hello 'ofNight'

Your post is very well written and I understand perfectly all your questions -
I am a Christian, in that I believe in JC. I don't necessarily believe JC was the son of 'god' I believe he had a problem with the Jewish church leaders, and their compliance of injustices with and by the Romans. He was a
revolutionary. A hero to the poor jewish people of the day. I don't belong to a particular church. I was raised Chuch of England/Anglican/Gospel/Baptist, yep made up religions as are Catholicism and Mormon and
Jehovah's witness and Presbyterian and Methodist and Evangelicalism etc(to name only a few) - (the new
testament was written[supposedly] by several disciples and a number of gospels that should have been
included were ditched by the priests and later the catholic church - the gospels of Philip, Magdalene and
Judas were deliberately bad mouthed and ignored - they really should form the basis of the new testament -in
my opinion )

I do not however, believe the bible (old testament) was written by 'god' or people who had 'contact' with 'god' I believe the bible was originally written, over a long period of time, to teach the people of the world certain
rules - and probably as a form of control - You can imagine the world back then - They needed rules to survive - We still need some of those rules - Don't go around killing people - it isn't nice, you end up hurting other people -Don't tell fibs - You won't be trusted if you do - Don't sleep around - diseases are spread - kids won't know who their dad is - the structure of the family is destroyed - Don't steal - well that's a good one, we shouldn't take what isn't ours - makes sense -
The 10 commandments 'pretty much' make sense -
The rest of the old testament, I don't know, as I said I don't believe 'god' was behind it - I think a lot of it is
padding - and shouldn't be relied upon for historical accuracy - You'll probably find a lot of the old bible stories
were just remembered stories from hundreds of years of oral history - 'there was a big flood.....' 'there was this
really huge man....' 'a baby was found in the river....' 'the wife turned around and was turned to stone....' etc
So much of the bible is taken literally, and so much is ignored if the individual doesn't like what's written - I
think people are people and if they don't like homosexuals they'll cite the bible as proof that they are right -
It's wrong, and to use their 'god' and a book that was written over several millenia to justify their personal
dislikes is a little hypocritical to say the least -
But I think you'll find a lot of 'religions' not just Christianity have rules that are changed or ignored to suit the
individual or group- It is unfortunate, but it's the way people are -
You should just live your life to your own beliefs and give respect to other people for their beliefs.

In Fellowship

TheEmotionalSocialist

I apologise for the jumping of lines, I don't know why that's happening. I tried to fix it and thought I had, but it keeps going back to the half lines/new line

Originally posted by MrsBlonde
let me guess ,you think I'm stupid

Was it the bible or the blonde that gave it away ??

Haha just kidding..

(or am I)

No, I am..

(I'm not!!)

Tee hee...

I like blondes.

reply to post by ofNight


Funny how you pose this question to Christians, yet you're getting responces from people who dont know anything about it.. Apparently..

So many people here giving their "personal opinions" on the matter, and seemingly clueless from the Christian point of view.

Good luck with this... Considering.

reply to post by ofNight


I got a question for you...Why do you care? Let people live however the hell they want, they don't have to explain a damn thing to anybody.