"180" Movie - A Few Minutes that may change your mind about Abortion

Originally posted by SubAce

Originally posted by captaintyinknotsso, you've established your opinion. What makes you think that gives you the right to force that opinion upon others?

I did not realize I was forcing anyone to believe something they didn't want to. If I did I apologize. I intentionally have never thought of doing such a thing. Are you sure you understand me? Or are you being a troll? I haven't quite got you figured out yet.

Fair enough, ill rephrase: what makes you think i t is your place to try and change anyones mind on this subject?

There, that should eliminate your dodging of the question...

reply to post by captaintyinknots

and then to quote scripture to back up your point, is hypocritical in a major way.

Where exactly did I quote scripture?

Finally, I ask againh what makes you think your opinion gives you the right to force others to live your way...

I'm not forcing anyone to live my way, I'm saying they should have a choice to live however they want, which included aborting their child if they don't want it. You are the one saying every women should be forced to have their child despite the situation or wishes of the women.

reply to post by captaintyinknots


Because they're the epitome of ignorance and they don't belong at ATS.

But hey, just about any loony can sign up and post their "facts", which usually consist of over-exaggerated youtube videos and links full of yellow journalism.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

and then to quote scripture to back up your point, is hypocritical in a major way.

Where exactly did I quote scripture?

Finally, I ask againh what makes you think your opinion gives you the right to force others to live your way...

I'm not forcing anyone to live my way, I'm saying they should have a choice to live however they want, which included aborting their child if they don't want it. You are the one saying every women should be forced to have their child despite the situation or wishes of the women.

Huh? I've said nothing of the sort...in fact, I've said the exact opposite.

reply to post by captaintyinknots

what makes you think i t is your place to try and change anyones mind on this subject?

OMG... what I stupid question that is. ATS is all about questioning your current paradigms reading everyone's different opinions. This is a place for expressing opinions, not matter how out of the box they may be. If you can't handle having your paradigms challenged then why are you even here? Do you think scientists have a right to study nature and tell you how it works, even if their new theories challenge old theories, or should we just ignore them because such theories are attempting to "try and change someones mind"? Good luck being stuck in your ancient unchanging frame of mind.

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by SubAce

 

I have a wonderful, wonderful idea: Why not worry about something that affects YOU for a change?

And while we're on the subject of morals, how about those future Christian soldiers?

If life is so #ing precious, then why do we need war?

War is a scourge to mankind. I'm a Jehovah's Witness and we do not condone war. We also do not take sides in politics. We also do not use politics to try to force other people to believe or do what we think is morally right or wrong. We believe God will do that by means of his son's kingdom.

I agree with you that Christendom and its participation in war is atrocious, Catholics slaughtering Catholics, Protestants maiming and murdering Protestants. It is repugnant and disgusting.

All human made war is wrong and unethical. Although we do realize that war is neccessary. The Bible tells of a coming time when all mankind, by God's decree will turn upon and destroy religion as a just punishment for her blood-guilt, and her meddling in worldy politics.

Then when the world's leaders turn upon God's witnesses who have no weapons to defend themselves and who are innocent of all bloodshed and live and peace and unity and harmony among each other, when these peaceful and meek people are ruthlessly attacked God will step in to protect them and you will have the battle of Armageddon wherein all wicked mankind will be destroyed.

But notice it was never a war that Jehovah instigated. It will be instigated by wicked humans. He will merely intervene and finish it.

reply to post by SubAce


Maybe you should tell your people to stop knocking on my door and following me to work and harassing my friends over your stupid cult.

I ought to sue the Jehovah's Witnesses one of these days. I will document their further harassment.

Other than that, get off of your high horse and accept that there are people out there that are different from you.

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

what makes you think i t is your place to try and change anyones mind on this subject?

OMG... what I stupid question that is. ATS is all about questioning your current paradigms reading everyone's different opinions. This is a place for expressing opinions, not matter how out of the box they may be. If you can't handle having your paradigms challenged then why are you even here? Do you think scientists have a right to study nature and tell you how it works, even if their new theories challenge old theories, or should we just ignore them because such theories are attempting to "try and change someones mind"? Good luck being stuck in your ancient unchanging frame of mind.

edit on 16-2-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

All of that and you completely dodge the question.

I asked the question flat out. Not in an accusatory or demeaning way. I didn't. Say they couldn't do it. I didn't say they were wrong. I asked it legitimately. Seems YOU are the one who cannot handle being challeneged.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by SubAce

Originally posted by captaintyinknotsso, you've established your opinion. What makes you think that gives you the right to force that opinion upon others?

I did not realize I was forcing anyone to believe something they didn't want to. If I did I apologize. I intentionally have never thought of doing such a thing. Are you sure you understand me? Or are you being a troll? I haven't quite got you figured out yet.

Fair enough, ill rephrase: what makes you think i t is your place to try and change anyones mind on this subject?

There, that should eliminate your dodging of the question...

edit on 16-2-2012 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)

I was not dodging the question. I was defending myself against an unjust accusation. I just answered that because you have twice unjustly accused me of things that are false. I do not understand why that is. Perhaps you need time to get to know me better.

But since you ask me under what moral ground to I have to try and persuade others to change:

(Ezekiel 3:18-19) . . .When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. 19 But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul.


Please do not confuse my beliefs with those of the person in the video. I should have clarified in the OP that I am not affiliated with him nor share his beliefs. But I did make that clear in my second post. Nevertheless I have a God-given right to share the truth with others, albeit with great respect and humility. Never would I presume on another's right to believe and do what they want. Nor would I want to fight. All my positions are uphold on scripture alone as you can see in my previous posts in this thread. I alone need not be considered, for I am no one. And if someone humbly accepts the persuasion then so be it.

False accusations and name calling though is unbecoming, even for those who believe different. It also diminishes the the argument being made.

reply to post by SubAce

you're welcome for the succinct opinion, however, after having rehashed this discussion for probably more years than you are old, it's worn out territory, it really is.

please keep in mind, the sanctity of life is quite precious to me and in order to maintain said sanctity of life, sometimes, sacrifices must be made.

--- as a matter of politics, this is exactly why i cannot and do not support Paul.
judge not lest ye be judged.

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by SubAce

 

Maybe you should tell your people to stop knocking on my door and following me to work and harassing my friends over your stupid cult.

I ought to sue the Jehovah's Witnesses one of these days. I will document their further harassment.

Other than that, get off of your high horse and accept that there are people out there that are different from you.

I apologize personally to you if I have offended you. The reason we preach worldwide is the same reason I answered to another poster here as to why I have a moral right to try and pursuade people to believe differently. And it is this:


(Ezekiel 3:18-19) . . .When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. 19 But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul.


Also, for your information, Jehovah's Witnesses have defended and legally established their right to declare the good news in the highest court of the United States over 50 times. Many nations have taken us to court and tried to strip us of our rights to declare the good news and have lost.

In Nazi Germany the Jehovah's Witnesses alone stood as a group that defied Hitler and the Nazi regmine. And it was the Jehovah's Witnesses alone as a religious group that he tried to exterminate. We spoke up loudly and with one voice while the rest remained quiet about the Holocaust against the Jews and gays and Gypsies.

When Himmler was on trial in Nummerburg and the great atrocities they did against the Jehovah's Witnesses were brought out he answered, "Yes, but I heard that you had banned them and arrested them and did the same to them in the United States."

I bring these things out to reason with you. There are many things you may be unaware of that hopefully will reach someone in your heart. But I will reveal this to you. All you have to do is tell them not to return. We keep a list of "do not calls." If someone requests (hopefully politely, but usually they have no manners) not to be bothered again we will not return. Rather we do as Jesus stated and dust our shoes off and continue on.

Originally posted by SubAce

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by SubAce

Originally posted by captaintyinknotsso, you've established your opinion. What makes you think that gives you the right to force that opinion upon others?

I did not realize I was forcing anyone to believe something they didn't want to. If I did I apologize. I intentionally have never thought of doing such a thing. Are you sure you understand me? Or are you being a troll? I haven't quite got you figured out yet.

Fair enough, ill rephrase: what makes you think i t is your place to try and change anyones mind on this subject?

There, that should eliminate your dodging of the question...

edit on 16-2-2012 by captaintyinknots because: (no reason given)

I was not dodging the question. I was defending myself against an unjust accusation. I just answered that because you have twice unjustly accused me of things that are false. I do not understand why that is. Perhaps you need time to get to know me better.

But since you ask me under what moral ground to I have to try and persuade others to change:

(Ezekiel 3:18-19) . . .When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. 19 But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul.


Please do not confuse my beliefs with those of the person in the video. I should have clarified in the OP that I am not affiliated with him nor share his beliefs. But I did make that clear in my second post. Nevertheless I have a God-given right to share the truth with others, albeit with great respect and humility. Never would I presume on another's right to believe and do what they want. Nor would I want to fight. All my positions are uphold on scripture alone as you can see in my previous posts in this thread. I alone need not be considered, for I am no one. And if someone humbly accepts the persuasion then so be it.

False accusations and name calling though is unbecoming, even for those who believe different. It also diminishes the the argument being made.

1)I did not call names. Which means you are the one making false accusations.
2)why do you feel your opinion and religion has any bearing on what others should feel?
3)can you prove this is 'truth' as you claim?
4)why do you feel it is your place to persuad people?

Originally posted by captaintyinknots

Originally posted by ChaoticOrder
reply to post by captaintyinknots

 

what makes you think it is your place to try and change anyones mind on this subject?

OMG... what I stupid question that is. ATS is all about questioning your current paradigms reading everyone's different opinions. This is a place for expressing opinions, not matter how out of the box they may be. If you can't handle having your paradigms challenged then why are you even here? Do you think scientists have a right to study nature and tell you how it works, even if their new theories challenge old theories, or should we just ignore them because such theories are attempting to "try and change someones mind"? Good luck being stuck in your ancient unchanging frame of mind.

edit on 16-2-2012 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)

All of that and you completely dodge the question.

I asked the question flat out. Not in an accusatory or demeaning way. I didn't. Say they couldn't do it. I didn't say they were wrong. I asked it legitimately. Seems YOU are the one who cannot handle being challeneged.

Your question basically says "what gives you the right to attempt changing my mind"... it DOES NOT say "what gives you the right to attempt changing my mind with a demeaning attitude".

edit: I also see that several different conversations have become mixed up, because you replied to me when I think you were attempting to reply to the OP. We are arguing the same thing with respect to abortion, but you are wrong about having your opinion challenged. The OP had every right to post this thread and present his opinion.

reply to post by ChaoticOrder


Ok then. Continue to avoid the question. Not surprising.

My question, again, is what makes you feel like it is up to you to change peoples minds on the subject.?

Answer it or don't, but these deflections and diversionary tactis are sad.

reply to post by SubAce

We keep a list of "do not calls." If someone requests (hopefully politely, but usually they have no manners) not to be bothered again we will not return. Rather we do as Jesus stated and dust our shoes off and continue on.

ha, haha, hahahahahahahahaha
thanks for the chuckle, i think they actually have me marked on google maps to avoid.

ya know, if i'm not busy i'll often engage them in casual conversation, and find they leave questioning their own beliefs ... however, at least it's entertaining.
funny thing though, many still return and some say thank you.

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
1)I did not call names. Which means you are the one making false accusations.
2)why do you feel your opinion and religion has any bearing on what others should feel?
3)can you prove this is 'truth' as you claim?
4)why do you feel it is your place to persuad people?

Actually that was a general reference to some of the name calling in this thread thrown at me. For example someone stated I was simply "uneducated" if I believed it is wrong to kill an unborn child, among others. That was not directed to you.

My opinion should have no bearing on what anyone thinks about anything, except perhaps my family.

My proof as I mentioned comes from the Bible, the quotes earlier uphold my position. I do realize that this relies on the supposition that the person being reasoned with has respect for the Bible. And in my many years of speaking with people I do realize that many many people do not respect it.

So I either have one of two choices, explain with reasoning and facts why the Bible can be trusted, or leave the person be. If the person will not be reasoned with I leave him be. If I see that the person is interested in intelligent discussion and honest I will always try and persuade them using facts that are provable as to why we can trust the Bible.

Obviously on a forum such as this we will get all types of people from all types of backgrounds all thinking and talking at the same time. One on one talks, such as at a person's home in private is much more conducive to personal attention needed or each person's personal needs and doubts or beliefs.

To answer your final question. The apostles of Jesus himself were scourged and commanded not to preach, and it does not take very long to find how they replied to the religious authorities in their day what their answer was:

(Acts 5:29) . . .“We must obey God as ruler rather than men.

As a Christian a Jehovah's Witness is put under the obligation to be a bearer of the good news in accord to Jesus' command:

(Matthew 28:19-20) 19 Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”

We are obedient to all human laws where there is no conflict with God's. But when there is a conflict we must obey God as ruler rather than man.

If you or anyone else chooses to listen then you may be actually saving your soul. If you choose not to listen, that is your choice. We are not like the Churches of Christendom that believe it is our right to force people to believe or worship the way we do.

I would have already stopped talking with you already accept that you are asking me questions and I am happy to answer them. And if anything of what I respond touches a cord with you, or if it instigates further honest discussion then great. If not, then so be it. It is simply as Jesus stated:

(Matthew 10:14) Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet.

reply to post by SubAce


Oh so your a Jehovah's Witness??

Is it not true that your sect refuses blood transfusions? So if your child, husband/wife, needed a tranfusion to survive and you refused it, is that not murder too? Actually, i see that as worse than aborting a fetus. Refusing a living human being the right to live because of some silly misinterpretations in a book.

Please correct me if i'm wrong.

Originally posted by SubAce

Originally posted by The Sword
reply to post by SubAce

 

Maybe you should tell your people to stop knocking on my door and following me to work and harassing my friends over your stupid cult.

I ought to sue the Jehovah's Witnesses one of these days. I will document their further harassment.

Other than that, get off of your high horse and accept that there are people out there that are different from you.

I apologize personally to you if I have offended you. The reason we preach worldwide is the same reason I answered to another poster here as to why I have a moral right to try and pursuade people to believe differently. And it is this:


(Ezekiel 3:18-19) . . .When I say to someone wicked, ‘You will positively die,’ and you do not actually warn him and speak in order to warn the wicked one from his wicked way to preserve him alive, he being wicked, in his error he will die, but his blood I shall ask back from your own hand. 19 But as for you, in case you have warned someone wicked and he does not actually turn back from his wickedness and from his wicked way, he himself for his error will die; but as for you, you will have delivered your own soul.


Also, for your information, Jehovah's Witnesses have defended and legally established their right to declare the good news in the highest court of the United States over 50 times. Many nations have taken us to court and tried to strip us of our rights to declare the good news and have lost.

In Nazi Germany the Jehovah's Witnesses alone stood as a group that defied Hitler and the Nazi regmine. And it was the Jehovah's Witnesses alone as a religious group that he tried to exterminate. We spoke up loudly and with one voice while the rest remained quiet about the Holocaust against the Jews and gays and Gypsies.

When Himmler was on trial in Nummerburg and the great atrocities they did against the Jehovah's Witnesses were brought out he answered, "Yes, but I heard that you had banned them and arrested them and did the same to them in the United States."

I bring these things out to reason with you. There are many things you may be unaware of that hopefully will reach someone in your heart. But I will reveal this to you. All you have to do is tell them not to return. We keep a list of "do not calls." If someone requests (hopefully politely, but usually they have no manners) not to be bothered again we will not return. Rather we do as Jesus stated and dust our shoes off and continue on.

How does your faith give you the moral right to try to persuade somebody else using complete misinformation and a video full of logical thought traps?

Every question in that video was a logical thought trap.

Like when he said;

"Spell Shop"

"S-H-O-P"

Now what do you do at a green light? "Stop."

No a green light? "Ohhh I see, good one."

That's a trick. Every question in that video used the SAME trick. The guy is a master manipulator, which makes him a great arguer, it doesn't make him "right."


Also, your thread specifically states in the op that it's intended purpose it to change the minds of the people who watch. This video is PURE 100% brainwashing propaganda. There is no facts in that video, only clever thought traps.

So again, I'll ask this time....


Why do you feel like it's your place to attempt to alter the mind of other men, when indeed -- the information you are using to attempt to alter their minds, is incorrect, non-truthful, and designed to manipulate a person against their will in an attack over the sanctity of the freedom of thought?

You are the evil man in your excerpt. It would be my duty to tell you the error of your ways, and so I have. You used a fake/hoax video full of dramatic non truths and trick questions in order to control the population of readers viewing your thread.

This is evil. Wrong. And by your excerpt, supplying incorrect/fake information will eventually get you killed (and it really can), and I will be vindicated upon your death, because I indeed warned you the error of your ways.


You don't fight over things you have no knowledge about. You especially don't attempt to alter the minds of men without truthful information. This is called brainwashing.

You are guilty of propagating brainwashing material.

Now you can answer the mans question, or you can use diversionary tactics and respond to him without the only piece of information that he wants from you.... If you choose the latter, it's better off that you don't answer, because you are attempting to stifle the conversation because you don't want to answer/don't know how to answer a simple question.


I'll repeat the rephrased question again;


Why do you feel like it's your place to attempt to alter the mind of other men, when indeed -- the information you are using to attempt to alter their minds, is incorrect, non-truthful, and designed to manipulate a person against their will in an attack over the sanctity of the freedom of thought?

Originally posted by captaintyinknots
reply to post by Bone75

 

Science AND the supreme court disagree with you. But hey, whatever you need to tell yourself, buddy.

If it's growing, then it's alive. Plain and simple. If you can debunk that fact using science then be my guest.
I just don't understand how people get this one wrong. Why are any of you even looking for justification to kill babies in the first place?

Oh and the supreme court... pfft don't even get me started on the guys who say it's okay to kill babies, but I'll go to prison if I sit on my couch and snort coc aine or smoke weed.

First, the beginning of this documentary aims to show these people as ignorant and unintelligent, which some decidedly are. In some cases, however, these people are intelligent, but put on the spot, they perhaps could not give the most eloquent answers. Regardless, it's clearly a tactic to discredit them and their beliefs.

Second, abortion and the holocaust are not relevant. It is clear that the documentary is trying to compare apples to oranges and have you believe that they are. Most people agree that the holocaust was an absolute, despicable, travesty, however, abortion is still up in the air for a lot of people. Therefore, in comparing a solid opinion, to one that varies to some degree isn't right.

Comparing someone who has an abortion, who has ended a potential to one life, to Hitler, who ended both the potential and the actual existence of millions of lives, is absolutely ridiculous and disgusting.

I personally think that abortion should be an option, not that I would use that option, but who am I to say that someone should not. I do not recognize it as murder. Although it is a form of life, a potential towards human life, it is not complete and intact, and its awareness is minuscule compared to a child. For me, I view life as a level of awareness. I believe that if the potential to life is clear and without threat, the child should be born. However, if the child was born into poverty, for instance, or other means where the parents could not adequately provide, I believe that one should be able to choose whether to abortion is the right option or not. If the mother became pregnant as a result of rape, the psychological damage is substantial. It's easy to imagine that mother not taking care of herself or having the capacity of taking care of herself because of mental or physical trauma which might result in depression, or an eating disorder or alcoholism, and so on. These reasons are why I believe it should be an option. I do think people need to think about choosing abortion before actually carrying through with it, whether it's the right decision or not. I feel like many people will just go and carry out a simple idea which might be built on flimsy logic or facts or maybe it's just not thought through very well or very far.