The TRUTH about Hell (May shock you...)

reply to post by jmdewey60


John wrote Revelations.....there were two quotes from that book if you recall....
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reply to post by Magnificient


You're twisting the word. He's saying that people will go to hell. Despite saying Lord, Lord.

reply to post by Iason321


You need to be careful about making such definitive biblical comments. My qualifications in this area include currently working on a Master's degree in seminary and about 5 years of full time ministry experience. Fact is the Lake of Fire is indeed empty right now and the Lake of Fire, as noted in Revelation Chapter 20-21 notes that the first creatures thrown into the Lake of Fire is the Beast and False prophet at the end of the Great Tribulation. This is followed by 1000 year reign of Christ on Earth. at the end of this 1000 year reign will be the White thrown Judgment where all un-saved humans from ALL TIME will be judged by their works. This is followed by all those who have rejected God being thrown into the Lake of Fire. Scripture notes that the smoke of torment in this Lake of Fire goes up forever and ever in the presence of the Lamb...Jesus.

Now...it seems that the Lake of Fire will be a permanent place of punishment for the Devil and his angels. Your hypothesis is that it will not be a permanent place of judgment/punishment for humans but that is a logical leap you are making because scripture does not say that humans in the Lake of Fire will be destroyed. The doctrine you are talking about is called the doctrine of annihilation espoused by some leading Christians such as John Stott.

There is no clear statement in the bible that humans will be annihalated. The orthodox teaching here is that all the damed will suffer eternal torment.

Nobody is calling Jesus a liar. The OP is just trying to show a different view of the concept of hell. All this excessive quoting of Bible verses doesn't really back anything up. Maybe you're taking things a bit too literally? I can quote verses that say there's gonna be 7 headed dragons and what not. Does this make it true? Or is the symbolism a metaphor to drive the point home, like the OP was suggesting?

What you call Hell, I'd call a well deserved rest.

reply to post by Elsha

. . . the smoke of torment in this Lake of Fire goes up forever and ever in the presence of the Lamb...Jesus.

Why would this character have to be Jesus? I would see as who would be the important witness to this event, the people who were earlier persecuted by the characters now being punished.
The people who are at this telling of a fire event are those who separated from the flock and were no longer the slain sheep but had become agents of the satanic assembly, those who trafficked in the commerce of the beast power and neglected the concern of where these items came from, whether their source was of an idolatrous nature or not.
So it is not a literal event but a description of what happens to one's soul when it engages with the enemy on their terms and becomes allied with it. Those who seem to be the sufferers in this world see themselves vindicated in the next world, as illustrated in these signs given to John of the Revelation.

I agree with the OP.
There is no "Hell" where people are burning alive forever for having lived an evil life.
The church made this up, mostly to scare people ignorant of bible verses, into doing what they say, and if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes an accepted fact.

Romans 6:7

for he who has paid the penalty of death stands absolved from his sin.

Physical death pays off all sins except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Since this is really hard to do, 99% of mankind that have died, have all there sins paid at death.

Death is a payer of sin, Jesus paid off the entire human family with his death, and on an individual basis it is done on a persons individual death. The debt is paid, there is no need for anymore suffering or pain.

Both relatively good people and relatively bad people then wait together in non-existent sleep, all there properties stored in God's memory as a group for the big general resurrection the bible speaks of in John 10:28&29

Don't be surprised at what I've just said. A time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice, 29and they will come out of their tombs. Those who have done good will come back to life and live. But those who have done evil will come back to life and will be judged.

And there judgement IS NOT on there past life but what they do with there current life, as there previous sins were forgiven.

Almost everybody that has died, good and bad are in Sheol or Hades right now.
The common grave of mankind.

reply to post by pierregustavetoutant

i can say that i'm living proof of that statement, i have felt the darkness of 'hell' and chose to fight it and embrace the beauty that we can create and see when we choose to open our eyes and notice that even the worst thing have a silver lining to gain strength and wisdom from.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Both relatively good people and relatively bad people then wait together in non-existent sleep, all there properties stored in God's memory as a group for the big general resurrection the bible speaks of in John 10:28&29

Don't be surprised at what I've just said. A time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice, 29and they will come out of their tombs. Those who have done good will come back to life and live. But those who have done evil will come back to life and will be judged.

And there judgement IS NOT on there past life but what they do with there current life, as there previous sins were forgiven.

Almost everybody that has died, good and bad are in Sheol or Hades right now.
The common grave of mankind.

The "non-existent sleep" is the part I may have a problem with. That somehow people can cease to exist for extended periods of time and be able to be in effect recalled, and still be the same person. There is something about human nature that does not hold up to that and that ephemeral essence that forms our identity is lost because we really need to be who we are in a close to continuous manner.
You may think, 'well we are talking about God, right?'
I think even God has to follow some basic rules about how the universe operates.
I think the physical universe operating as a virtual entity creates its own "soul catchers" which takes people's souls and drags them to a place where they are wandering around, not quite understanding where they are or why, but have the same sort of identity of who they are, the same unbroken stream of consciousness since they were able to have such a thing in their mother's womb.

reply to post by jmdewey60

That somehow people can cease to exist for extended periods of time and be able to be in effect recalled, and still be the same person.

Why not? Humans with there limited knowledge have already done this with computers and movies and pictures.
Instant recall. God has no limitations, his memory banks can never be overloaded, he can recall a person physically back to the last hair on there head, with basically the same emotional and mental disposition. Only difference, as Jesus healed people, so will these "recalled" or resurrected people will be healed of all disabilities physical, mental and emotional. In essence they will be better than before, not perfect yet, but in better shape than before. Examples would be people who lost limbs or had diabetes, they would be brought back healed of these ailments. Emotional issues solved like schizophrenia, bi-polar or even depression gone. One thing that wouldn't change is the persons core personality, if they were good people when they died they just keep on doing what they were doing. If they were bad people when they died, they need to change, and fast.... or they won't be around for long, and this time they will be permanently be non-existent.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Why not? Humans with there limited knowledge have already done this with computers and movies and pictures.

Because people are different from anything else.
You could, for the sake of argument, in some future time, download all the memories of a person and implant them into another person but it will not make that second person the first person who those memories were taken from.
People to retain their identities need to continually exist in some sort of conscious state.
An analogy might be that somewhere in your phone, there is some sort of power source to retain the phone numbers and things while you are changing the main battery, or on a computer, you have a watch battery on your motherboard that retains your bios and keeps time, even if the unit is not connected to a power outlet or the power supply unit is switched off.

the bible cannot be interpreted any way one wants to. There is an approach to bible interpretation called hermanutics.

Just because you think thats what it says does not mean you are CORRECT!!

reply to post by jmdewey60

People to retain their identities need to continually exist in some sort of conscious state. An analogy might be that somewhere in your phone, there is some sort of power source to retain the phone numbers and things while you are changing the main battery, or on a computer, you have a watch battery on your motherboard that retains your bios and keeps time, even if the unit is not connected to a power outlet or the power supply unit is switched off.

Maybe a way to explain it is that there soul is sleeping in God's memory, that is the retention variable you speak of.
Read the bible verses that says the soul dies and is not conscious of anything, if you are an avid student of the bible you would have read these verses by now, and they cannot be dismissed.

If this has been previously mentioned, my apologies.

Rev 20:10 '' And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. ''

Tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This tells me it is everlasting torment...and a real fire.

I believe the Bible. That there is a literal hell aND lake of fire.
Folks do tend to twist the Scriptures though... to try to make it say what they had rather hear.

Please don't fall for this deceit...It is a spewed lie that was started by the Father of Lies- Satan himself. He wants folk to suffer with him and for people to not believe in Hell.. When that day comes, they will realize that they were duped.
The Bible says "torment day and night for ever and ever", and for one to adhere to the Bible and minus this verse - well shame on you!

reply to post by SeekerLou


The key to understanding the bible is literal vs symbolic understanding especially in the book of Revelation.
Now anybody can argue verses one over the other and have at least some basis for their belief.

But when I read in the bible that God is LOVE his justice DOES NOT include torturing people for infinity, that's not love, that's what Satan wants you to believe, that God is vindictive and cruel towards his creation.
The ultimate punishment God deals out is non-existence through death.
Even man that lacks the love of God would never keep putting somebody through the death penalty over and over again, firing squad, gas chamber, hanging, electrocution, reviving them and torturing them to death.
If man wouldn't do it nether would God.

Thus what is said in Revelation must be symbolic, there torture is not physical, but rather in historical infamy for all eternity, it will never be forgotten.

Let me put into perspective that has been used before.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt proclaimed December 7, 1941, "a date which will live in infamy".

Is that day actually alive?
NO
But it does live on in the minds of humanity; in an unpleasant and sort of torturous way.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by SeekerLou

 

The key to understanding the bible is literal vs symbolic understanding especially in the book of Revelation.
Now anybody can argue verses one over the other and have at least some basis for their belief.

We'll agree to disagree on this one

The key to understanding the Bible is only through Him...and are only revealed through the help of His Holy Spirit giving us His Truths . Having the Holy Spirits guidance and following Him is the key.

reply to post by SeekerLou


Fair enough, but you made no attempt to address the logical points in my last post I made.

I hope those that read this and are Christians can consider that the God we know is not so cruel to punish them so severely if they mess up in life. Sin after all runs very deep in the human family, thankfully Jesus Christ sacrifice covers 99% of all those that have lived and died and their sins.

Originally posted by Blue_Jay33
reply to post by SeekerLou

 

Even man that lacks the love of God would never ....
If man wouldn't do it nether would God.

You'd be very surprised what man could do and does- look around and you will see just what men ARE capable of doing.

Let me put into perspective that has been used before.

President Franklin D. Roosevelt proclaimed December 7, 1941, "a date which will live in infamy".

Is that day actually alive?
NO

I do see your point however this is NOT God's Word we're talking about , this was about Roosevelt.

God is a God of love. He is also a jealous God and a God of righteous judgement. He hates sin ! And if He says there is a Hell , I will believe it..

What is of most importance is having/knowing the Lord Jesus Christ as one's personal Saviour ... He alone will save you...whether a Hell or not. Can we agree there?

ETA: Consider this verse:
Mar 9:46" Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. "

If a worm can't die *& it has no ''spirit or soul'' then I wouldn't expect that the unbelieving soul's ( the lost) would ever burn out or die either. The fire is everlasting and can NOT be extinguished.

Eternity and an EVERlasting fire needs to be read LITERALLY no doubt.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33

Maybe a way to explain it is that there soul is sleeping in God's memory, that is the retention variable you speak of.
Read the bible verses that says the soul dies and is not conscious of anything, if you are an avid student of the bible you would have read these verses by now, and they cannot be dismissed.

I know all those verses from an early age, being a core belief of Seventh Day Adventist's but looking at them now, it just seems to say they loose their connection with the living, which I accept.
Your mind continues to work as you sleep.

reply to post by SeekerLou

Tormented day and night for ever and ever.
This tells me it is everlasting torment...and a real fire.

If it is in Revelation, then it is guaranteed not to be literal.