US Marines posed with Nazi symbol in Afghanistan

Originally posted by Sharpenmycleats

Originally posted by VerityPhantom
Military men are perhaps the most ignorant breed of human I have ever come across, I just hope Ron Paul can bring them home so we can send them back to school.

When did you come across these military men? When you were going door to door selling CutCo. Boy the intellectual pre-qualifications for that position must have been pretty stiff.

My facts are correct, this person sitting back making blanket statements about all military men's intelligence is an entry level door to door salesman. Check out his own thread. Do you realize how many people have been killed by Cutco knives!

lol seriously? I'd rather sell knives then kill foreign civilians and rape their women just so you can serve your corporate masters.

Come on guys, we're on page 25 and some of you are still claiming the innocent excuse that this had no hidden meaning and that it does'nt have anything to do with the Nazism of your society going on right under your nose while you embrace and defend it.

This time it won't be the Jews, it will probably be Christians from North America. I'm sure that might hit close to home for some of you. Welcome to the world of the 3rd and 4th Reich.

reply to post by Corruption Exposed

Is that Chris Kyle on the left?

No, that is not him as he is a navy seal and not a marine which is what your picture shows.

Originally posted by VerityPhantom
reply to post by duality90

 

Unless you HAVE to join to get some quick cash I suggest you just stay home and make a career for yourself don't listen to anyone who is in the military they just want more body bags so they don't have to go out and get killed themselves.

I was in the British version of ROTC before I emigrated to America and I'm quite interested in joining as an officer. Dangerous job, maybe, but frankly I am bored to death sitting in an office watching the daylight and the sun dwindle daily. I'm not surprised by some of the remarks by servicemen on the thread, but I think the US military would benefit greatly from having a greater understanding of the use of force in foreign policy and international relations, to understand why they kill and learn more about the art of warfare than merely knowing what end the bullets come out of. The Brits have done a fairly good job in getting at least the NCOs to understand that there really is a hell of alot more to today's counter-insurgency warfare than simply killing people. General Westmoreland proved fairly well that it is extremely difficult to kill ideas even if rifles can quite effectively end human life.

In any case. I don't buy the point many posters are trying to make on here - 'you wouldn't understand', 'they put their lives on the line every day'. That may very well be true, but it doesn't immunize them from scrutiny for acts which would land one in prison in many European nations, nor for those which tend to lower the reputation of the services in the eyes of reasonable people both at home and abroad. How long will it take us to learn that understanding your enemy is just as vital as defeating, if not now moreso than ever? I fear that the largest force in Afghanistan simply doesn't understand the enemy or forces that it is trying to defeat - by which I mean the social and political motivations that push people into the ranks of the Taleban. They aren't fighting because they hate Wal-Mart, Wendy's, and the right to bear arms, after all...

Anyhow. I would hope that more reasonable posters wouldn't conflate moral disgust with 'anti-military bigotry'. I think the military provides a cool way of life for many people who want to do something adventurous or different with their lives, but just as murder is as punishable a crime for a soldier as it is for a civilian, so servicemen don't get to be exempted from the moral standards the rest of us are subject to - if anything, greater scrutiny is placed on them as representatives of the nation.

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed


Does anyone really believe it's an innocent mistake?

The SS were blamed for killing millions of Jews and these men are proudly using their symbolism. This is bound to cause an outrage among the Jewish community. Even as a non religious person I find these actions to lack any respect.

Anyone notice how it's all a bunch of white guys?

news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)

Everyone knows the truth, some will admit it and but some won't

Originally posted by duality90


How on earth did this get so many stars? The national socialist party didn't even exist in WW1 (or whatever 1914-1916) date is printed on that medal.

Proprietary designs of helmets are a little bit different, to be honest...

The point was England used the Iron cross also. That doesnt make the iron cross a symbol of Nazism.

Germany used a black Iron cross....The still use them today.


Many things get recycled and used. Especially symbols.......

Originally posted by duality90

Originally posted by VerityPhantom
reply to post by duality90

 

Unless you HAVE to join to get some quick cash I suggest you just stay home and make a career for yourself don't listen to anyone who is in the military they just want more body bags so they don't have to go out and get killed themselves.

I was in the British version of ROTC before I emigrated to America and I'm quite interested in joining as an officer. Dangerous job, maybe, but frankly I am bored to death sitting in an office watching the daylight and the sun dwindle daily. I'm not surprised by some of the remarks by servicemen on the thread, but I think the US military would benefit greatly from having a greater understanding of the use of force in foreign policy and international relations, to understand why they kill and learn more about the art of warfare than merely knowing what end the bullets come out of. The Brits have done a fairly good job in getting at least the NCOs to understand that there really is a hell of alot more to today's counter-insurgency warfare than simply killing people. General Westmoreland proved fairly well that it is extremely difficult to kill ideas even if rifles can quite effectively end human life.

In any case. I don't buy the point many posters are trying to make on here - 'you wouldn't understand', 'they put their lives on the line every day'. That may very well be true, but it doesn't immunize them from scrutiny for acts which would land one in prison in many European nations, nor for those which tend to lower the reputation of the services in the eyes of reasonable people both at home and abroad. How long will it take us to learn that understanding your enemy is just as vital as defeating, if not now moreso than ever? I fear that the largest force in Afghanistan simply doesn't understand the enemy or forces that it is trying to defeat - by which I mean the social and political motivations that push people into the ranks of the Taleban. They aren't fighting because they hate Wal-Mart, Wendy's, and the right to bear arms, after all...

Anyhow. I would hope that more reasonable posters wouldn't conflate moral disgust with 'anti-military bigotry'. I think the military provides a cool way of life for many people who want to do something adventurous or different with their lives, but just as murder is as punishable a crime for a soldier as it is for a civilian, so servicemen don't get to be exempted from the moral standards the rest of us are subject to - if anything, greater scrutiny is placed on them as representatives of the nation.

Well it's refreshing to hear a potential soldier understand the inner-workings of the why I believe war is a chess game not checkers. I'd say you and I see eye to eye on this war thing and I wish you good luck if you choose to join. I understand why you would tire of the usual hum-drum office life that's the big spiritual war that's going on in the western world right now that's eating at you. I actually enjoy connecting to nature that's where I find my "zen" I don't understand those who trade humanity for patriotism though. This blind war mongering worries me especially when they try to blast someone just because they think killing is wrong.

Well here you go for all of you that want to keep attributing this with Nazi's really need to pay attention...

Master Gunnery Sgt. Mark Oliva, a spokesman at Camp Pendleton, Calif., said the photo was brought to the attention of the 1 Marine Expeditionary Force inspector general in November, and he found there was no intent on the part of the Marines to identify themselves with a racist organization. Oliva said the investigation found that the SS symbol was meant to identify the Marines as scout snipers, not Nazis, but it was nonetheless not acceptable. This is the second time this year the Marine Corps has had to do damage control for its troops' actions.

usnews.msnbc.msn.com...

So there you go it says it all right there. No nazi affiliation and yes it is meant to identify them as scout snipers. Thanks to all the men and women that serve this country so that you can be free and be able to make up rediculous threads like this. Maybe people need to actually research things before they start yelling Nazi's.

People really should know their history better.

That symbol represents millions of people murdered: Russian and Ukrainian peasants who were slaughtered in literally uncountable millions, 10-12 million political prisoners, Jews, Romany and other "undesirables" in the concentration camps.

I doubt they were trying to give homage to the Nazi SS (at least I hope they weren't), but to not know something that should be such basic, common knowledge of history is pretty unforgivable in other ways.

Originally posted by tsurfer2000h
Well here you go for all of you that want to keep attributing this with Nazi's really need to pay attention...

Master Gunnery Sgt. Mark Oliva, a spokesman at Camp Pendleton, Calif., said the photo was brought to the attention of the 1 Marine Expeditionary Force inspector general in November, and he found there was no intent on the part of the Marines to identify themselves with a racist organization. Oliva said the investigation found that the SS symbol was meant to identify the Marines as scout snipers, not Nazis, but it was nonetheless not acceptable. This is the second time this year the Marine Corps has had to do damage control for its troops' actions.

usnews.msnbc.msn.com...

So there you go it says it all right there. No nazi affiliation and yes it is meant to identify them as scout snipers. Thanks to all the men and women that serve this country so that you can be free and be able to make up rediculous threads like this. Maybe people need to actually research things before they start yelling Nazi's.

Thank you for the post and source. I know some on this post are going to have a hard time swallowing that article and the fact it was from MSNBC and not FoxNews.

Originally posted by duality90
Ironically I've actually been considering joining the Marine Corps. A bit upset to see this sort of thing though ... I was attracted to them because of the image of eliteness and high standards. This is a bit of a let-down.

Dude, if you're going to let a few Marines differing opinions on an internet forum turn you off from doing something you've been considering, then maybe you shouldn't join after all.

It doesn't matter what you do in life or where you go, there's never going to be a place where everyone will agree with every standard you uphold. Marines are people too and each have their own personal ideologies not unlike you would encounter in a normal workplace.

The thing is, we all join for common reasons, and we all have a job to do. When the time comes to do that job, religious bias, race, personal opinions, all go out the window. That's what we're taught and that's what matters.

I would say take the leap of faith. It's a few years out of your life, and you will come out with an entirely different perspective, life long friends from all over the country and from every walk of life, memories you won't forget, and invaluable work experience for when you return to civilian life depending on what you decide to do. You'll then understand what we mean when you hear guys saying "you wouldn't understand," because it's a lifestyle you really can't get until you live it.

Originally posted by sonnny1

Originally posted by duality90


How on earth did this get so many stars? The national socialist party didn't even exist in WW1 (or whatever 1914-1916) date is printed on that medal.

Proprietary designs of helmets are a little bit different, to be honest...

The point was England used the Iron cross also. That doesnt make the iron cross a symbol of Nazism.

Germany used a black Iron cross....The still use them today.


Many things get recycled and used. Especially symbols.......

This is true. But then again neither Britain nor the Buddhists were ever convicted of mass murder and war crimes at the Nuremberg tribunals? The point is that symbols with a once benign meaning can be tainted with association that is so inherent associated with the image that it can only reasonably interpreted as a symbol of that association or event in history.

For instance, prior to crucifixion story (by which I mean that of Jesus dying on the cross), the two shapes used by the Romans (the T and the cross that we know today) was a symbol of execution, but was not attributed as the symbol of any particular person or allegiance. With Jesus` death and the ensuing growth of Christianity, the cross has come to recognized universally as a symbol of Christianity.

If I were to start wearing a cross around my neck and say that it is a sign of my deep indifference to religion and my atheism (for hypothetical purposes), do you think I would be justified in my surprise that people are asking me why the symbol of my personal belief is apparently being attributed to some prior user or movement that made the image famous? I would not think so. Although the symbol in and of itself has no inherent meaning (although this is actually debatable in the case of the Sig runes, which have behind them a mythology which Himmler wanted to instil in his men), it is invariably associated around the world with Christianity and Jesus Christ. I have not used the best illustration or analogy, I will admit, but when I think of it, with the exception of the KKK Roundel (which I don't think is actually that widely known) I can't think of many symbols which are so inherently associated with evil and brutality. So, in my example, instead of using a negative association, I have chosen to illustrate my point with a positive association with a symbol. The point is that when people see a cross they think 'Jesus' and when people see the Sig runes or the Swastika they think 'National Socialism'.

Do you understand?

As a side note, I recall my father telling me a story about when he was in school in the mid/late 60s. A boy in his class was doodling the sig runes in his notebook. The teacher flew off the handle and beat the boy (corporal punishment still being legal), telling him that men who wore the Sig runes on their collars murdered her family and nearly killed her as well. Keep in mind that these symbols bear a grave association for very palpable and good reasons.

Edit: might have been a male teacher or the headmaster. I can't recall. Although I do think the headmaster was an old RAF boy who told my grandfather that my dad, being Irish, wasn't cut out for University and would do better as a bricklayer. Charming.

Originally posted by r3axion

Originally posted by duality90
Ironically I've actually been considering joining the Marine Corps. A bit upset to see this sort of thing though ... I was attracted to them because of the image of eliteness and high standards. This is a bit of a let-down.

Dude, if you're going to let a few Marines differing opinions on an internet forum turn you off from doing something you've been considering, then maybe you shouldn't join after all.

It doesn't matter what you do in life or where you go, there's never going to be a place where everyone will agree with every standard you uphold. Marines are people too and each have their own personal ideologies not unlike you would encounter in a normal workplace.

The thing is, we all join for common reasons, and we all have a job to do. When the time comes to do that job, religious bias, race, personal opinions, all go out the window. That's what we're taught and that's what matters.

I would say take the leap of faith. It's a few years out of your life, and you will come out with an entirely different perspective, life long friends from all over the country and from every walk of life, memories you won't forget, and invaluable work experience for when you return to civilian life depending on what you decide to do. You'll then understand what we mean when you hear guys saying "you wouldn't understand," because it's a lifestyle you really can't get until you live it.

edit on 2-10-12 by r3axion because: (no reason given)

hehe. I'm not going to be put off entirely by this sole incident (that would be retarded), but I must say that I'm surprised the officer corps doesn't seem to take these sorts of allegations more seriously. Especially as it would appear that, as you said, the practice has indeed been quite commonplace for many years. Decades, even.

I'm also quite keen on the MAW however. I was considering the JAG Corps but frankly think I'd rather be involved in the grittier side of things. On a totally separate note (PM me if you want), do you have any idea what sort of cut the marines are going to take in the 500bn defense cuts?

This is nothing more then a silly joke, if real, or are we to believe all US troops are Nazi's


second

reply to post by duality90


Well the logo is banned now due to the public outcry apparently.

One thing I can tell you is, really talk to a recruiter and get all the info on your possible MOS because if you change your mind after you sign the papers and ship out, you're stuck in that MOS for at least 24 months and lat moving isn't always easy. So just really consider your options first.

As far as the cuts, I'm really not sure what that's affecting really. I haven't heard much about it. If anything you'll probably just be in DEP a couple months longer than usual before you ship to boot. Just make sure you're in shape and the whole process shouldn't be bad.

You can PM me if you want to go into further detail.