Theory, the 24 Elders

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

. . . that great falling away in faith unto the revelation of the son of perdition (2 Thess 2).

Like I mentioned in my above post, write off 2 Thessalonians from your to-read list. It just doesn't fit the timeline for when Paul was alive, plus you have the problem where one of the letters has to be fake, since 2 Thessalonians claims the earlier one was fake, so either the first one is fake as the second one says, or the second one is lying and is the real fake.

So here we have 24 elders. If you divide 24 by 2 you get 12. So i was thinking that perhaps the first 12 of the 24 elders could be the sons of Jacob, and the second half could be the "sons" of Jesus (his apostles). So we have 12 from Jacob and 12 from Jesus for a total of 24. In effect rendering 2 different tribes and each tribe is represented by 1 Elder.

The 24 elders are the 24 archangels. There are two different levels of archs, the orginal (7) are higher than the others. There are indeed 25, but the 25th one does not stay in heaven, he stays on common ground. They each have a seat (throne) directly under Father.

reply to post by jhill76

The 24 elders are the 24 archangels.

No! They sing the "Song of the Redeemed", angels cannot be redeemed.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

. . . and his return for such is the Gospel.

Really?
That's the Gospel?

edit on 8-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Hey,

Good news! We are free and have the promise of Jesus return and eternal life with our Father through Jesus.

Yes, the Gospel of our salvation, and redemption.

. . . the times and seasons (1 Thess 5).

Do you mean this verse?

". . . then sudden destruction comes on them . . ."

Most NT scholars think that Paul, the author most likely of 1 Thessalonians, died in 68 A.D., so this would have been written quite a bit before then, this letter being one of his earliest letters we still have. (ignoring 2 Thessalonians as a forgery written after Paul's death) So at this time, the fall of Jerusalem would not have been something anyone would have suspected as being anything that could possibly happen, in the near future, or for that matter, at any time.

Actually, I meant this verse, "But of the times and season, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night".

Words like "think" and "most likely" don't lend themselves to surety. 2 Thess whether by Paul, Silvanus, or Timothy, the message in the words speak for themselves and the Holy Spirit within who authored it through inspiring men.

P.s. Some scholars place the dating of 2 Thessalonians in the early 50 AD's before Paul's death in 68 AD.

The event is scriptural and is a blessing for those who love God more than this world . . .

The event is described as (which I just quoted above) something disastrous to those unawares.

The "Event" I speak of is the Harpazo. You speak of a different matter.

(1 Cor 15:53-54).

I am merely waiting on it to happen; I am hoping it happens in my lifetime.

Here is part of that:

I will tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed – in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

If you understand Jewish belief at that time, Paul is describing judgment. This is the same thing mentioned in the Gospel of John, where Lazarus' sister says 'if you had been here, my brother need not have died', and Jesus says something about coming back to life or something and she says, 'I know he will in the last day.', where she meant judgment. The part I quoted above from 1 Corinthians is one version of the text, where other versions fit into the final judgement scenario, where it says "all will sleep but not all will be changed". So Paul is saying, 'you already understand the concept where everyone at some future unspecified time, will be raised from the dead at least as much as necessary in order to be a witness to their own judgment. Well on that day, if you are already sort of pre-judged through Christ, when you are raised up, it will be in a manner to where you will not just go back to being dead, later'.

edit on 9-2-2012 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Judgment is coming but in this life if we would but judge ourselves, we need not face judgment at the throne but will have Jesus as our intercessor. Nevertheless, we will all die and shed the corruptible and I wait with patience until the day I am clothed with the incorruptible by our Savior, Jesus.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff

 

. . . that great falling away in faith unto the revelation of the son of perdition (2 Thess 2).

Like I mentioned in my above post, write off 2 Thessalonians from your to-read list. It just doesn't fit the timeline for when Paul was alive, plus you have the problem where one of the letters has to be fake, since 2 Thessalonians claims the earlier one was fake, so either the first one is fake as the second one says, or the second one is lying and is the real fake.

For our readers who don't know scripture, perhaps it would help if you would quote the scripture where one claims the other is a fake. I've read them and I don't find it. Like I mentioned before, the words, the message within, the Word speaks for itself whether it be true and trustworthy or not. Timothy and Silvanus are listed together with Paul as being authors and other scholars believe 2 Thess to be written in the early 50 AD's which fits in form.

reply to post by HeFrippedMeOff


Not only that, many historians claim the letters to the Thessalonians are Paul's first penned works in the NT.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jhill76

 

The 24 elders are the 24 archangels.

No! They sing the "Song of the Redeemed", angels cannot be redeemed.

edit on 9-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Just because they sing the song of the Redeemed, does not imply they have to be redeemed! No man has a throne next to God.

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jhill76

 

The 24 elders are the 24 archangels.

No! They sing the "Song of the Redeemed", angels cannot be redeemed.

Just because they sing the song of the Redeemed, does not imply they have to be redeemed! No man has a throne next to God.

They offer up prayers of the saint, (priests), they have thrones (kings). Who else in the Bible besides Melchizedek and Jesus Christ are both kings and priests and would be singing the Song of the Redeemed?? The Bride rules and reigns with Christ.

The church.

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jhill76

 

The 24 elders are the 24 archangels.

No! They sing the "Song of the Redeemed", angels cannot be redeemed.

Just because they sing the song of the Redeemed, does not imply they have to be redeemed! No man has a throne next to God.

Btw.. The angels would NOT be singing something false in the throne room of God. (That they have been redeemed by the blood)

Jesus didn't incarnate into an angel, die for them, and rise again. They can't be redeemed.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jhill76

 

The 24 elders are the 24 archangels.

No! They sing the "Song of the Redeemed", angels cannot be redeemed.

Just because they sing the song of the Redeemed, does not imply they have to be redeemed! No man has a throne next to God.

They offer up prayers of the saint, (priests), they have thrones (kings). Who else in the Bible besides Melchizedek and Jesus Christ are both kings and priests and would be singing the Song of the Redeemed?? The Bride rules and reigns with Christ.

The church.

edit on 9-2-2012 by NOTurTypical because: (no reason given)

Jesus sits next to Father, the 24 elders sit below them. Jesus is not an elder. Your are adding words that are not written. (Priests) (Kings) You are using mans words to try and describe what is going on up there. When John was taken up, he was trying his best to describe what was going on up there in Revelations.

Originally posted by jhill76
No man has a throne next to God.

"He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my father on his throne"- Revelation ch3 v21

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by jhill76

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jhill76

 

The 24 elders are the 24 archangels.

No! They sing the "Song of the Redeemed", angels cannot be redeemed.

Just because they sing the song of the Redeemed, does not imply they have to be redeemed! No man has a throne next to God.

Btw.. The angels would NOT be singing something false in the throne room of God. (That they have been redeemed by the blood)

Jesus didn't incarnate into an angel, die for them, and rise again. They can't be redeemed.

Do you know why there is even a hierarchy for the angels? The angels are here solely for man, from the lowest angel to "The Arch" (The Chief Angel). Again, Jesus is not an elder, he is above the angels. They are singing the song of the redeemed, how does that equate to them being redeemed?

reply to post by jhill76

Jesus sits next to Father, the 24 elders sit below them. Jesus is not an elder. Your are adding words that are not written. (Priests) (Kings) You are using mans words to try and describe what is going on up there. When John was taken up, he was trying his best to describe what was going on up there in Revelations.

No, they are singing the song of the redeemed, that's the church. They are offering prayers up (priests), and they have thrones and crowns (kings). They are kings and priests. That's the Bride of Christ, which is the only people singing the Song of the Redeemed.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by jhill76
No man has a throne next to God.

"He who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I myself conquered and sat down with my father on his throne"- Revelation ch3 v21

Jesus is not man. He came in the form of man.
There are three types of spirits in the beginning, besides Father and his seven. (Those from above (angels), man, and Jesus himself)

reply to post by jhill76


A Cherub is higher and mightier than an Arch.

reply to post by jhill76

You missed my point.
If Jesus is sitting on the throne of his Father
and the conquerors are sitting on the same throne as Jesus,
then the conquerors are sitting on the throne of his Father.
That is the wonder of the gospel, that humanity has been brought up that close to God.

reply to post by NOTurTypical


They have throwns (they don't have crowns, John said this because it looks like a crown, it is actually pure light.), because they are king as you say of their particular area. Let me give some examples.

Archangel Michael - Over all soldiers and protection
The Arch - Over all of the archangels
Pravuil - Records all of the deeds of the Lord
Archangel Gabriel - Over the watchers

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by jhill76

 

A Cherub is higher and mightier than an Arch.

Again, you are using mans words to describe the hierarchy of above. No angel is higher than the Chief of Angels, his name is "The Arch" Many think Michael is the highest.