Theory, the 24 Elders

I've been working on a theory, and i am sure other biblical scholars have probably come across similar ideas, but this came to me on my own, or call it divine providence. Whatever floats your boat. I was doing some thinking about the 24 elders because it came up in my bible study group tonight briefly and thats when this thought occured to me.

So here we have 24 elders. If you divide 24 by 2 you get 12. So i was thinking that perhaps the first 12 of the 24 elders could be the sons of Jacob, and the second half could be the "sons" of Jesus (his apostles). So we have 12 from Jacob and 12 from Jesus for a total of 24. In effect rendering 2 different tribes and each tribe is represented by 1 Elder.

I am thinking that the 144k "jews" in revelation that Jesus used to rebuild the tribes of Israel are not really jews but christians who come under persecution during the great tribulation. Why do I think this? Because the Israelites rejected Jesus and so the King of kings took for himself a people that would love him. The previous tribe of Israel could consist of the jews who believe the savior would come and had faith in him given by the prophets' messages.

I haven't gotten this theory ironed out yet, it's still a work in progress, any ideas that are on topic and do not consist or trolling me just to be a dick are welcome.

I don't know about the numerology thing with the Elders, is interesting , taking it further 12=3 in numerology and we know what 3=

I think the 144k thing is going to be real. Have you been around Messianic Jews? I went to a Seder at a Temple not far from my home, it was the most incredible evening. Very joyful. I can see a mass conversion like that in Israel.

Maybe someone wrote the numbers down wrong. It was people after all who wrote the bible. People make mistakes...

Interesting theory but there is 1 huge flaw, and that is your thinking Christians represent the 144,000 based on the erroneous teaching of replacement theology that the Church has replaced Israel which is a huge lie if one actually reads there Scriptures can see the pulpit masters are wolves in sheeps clothing. Does any of this say Church? No but Yisrael

Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of all the tribes of the children of Yisra’ĕl:
Rev 7:5 of the tribe of Yehuḏah twelve thousand were sealed, of the tribe of Re’uḇĕn twelve thousand were sealed, of the tribe of Gaḏ twelve thousand were sealed,
Rev 7:6 of the tribe of Ashĕr twelve thousand were sealed, of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed, of the tribe of Menashsheh twelve thousand were sealed,
Rev 7:7 of the tribe of Shimʽon twelve thousand were sealed, of the tribe of Lĕwi twelve thousand were sealed, of the tribe of Yissasḵar twelve thousand were sealed,
Rev 7:8 of the tribe of Zeḇulun twelve thousand were sealed, of the tribe of Yosĕph twelve thousand were sealed, of the tribe of Binyamin twelve thousand were sealed.

Not to nit pick your theory because that is iron clad on the 12 sons of Jacob and the 12 Apostles being the 24 elders. If you read Peters writings who was to be the Rock and not Paul who's teachings the wolves twist to allow Lawlessness.

Mat 10:5 יהושע sent these twelve out, having commanded them, saying, “Do not go into the way of the gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Shomeronites,
Mat 10:6 but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.

Mat 15:24 And He answering, said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Yisra’ĕl.”

Do those passages sound like He came to start a new religion such as Christianity or continue with what had already been established to Yisrael?

Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Torah or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to complete.
Mat 5:18 “For truly, I say to you, till the heaven and the earth pass away, one jot or one tittle shall by no means pass from the Torah till all be done.

As I sit right now I see heaven above and Earth below which means All is not done which also means Torah/Law still stands. I hope this helps you in your studies because it did mine once I broke through the delusion of false doctrine spewed by the wolves intoxicating the pulpits with strong do as you please it's ok feel good wishy washy doctrine support my ministry w/ your money speech every sun-day.

Shalom.


Edit: Also 'Jews' are only 1 tribe 2 if you count Benjamin. It was Judah one kingdom and Yisrael of the Northern Kingdom. Common mistake made today is to say all Jews are all Yisrael when that is not true.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I've been working on a theory, and i am sure other biblical scholars have probably come across similar ideas, but this came to me on my own, or call it divine providence. Whatever floats your boat. I was doing some thinking about the 24 elders because it came up in my bible study group tonight briefly and thats when this thought occured to me.

So here we have 24 elders. If you divide 24 by 2 you get 12. So i was thinking that perhaps the first 12 of the 24 elders could be the sons of Jacob, and the second half could be the "sons" of Jesus (his apostles). So we have 12 from Jacob and 12 from Jesus for a total of 24. In effect rendering 2 different tribes and each tribe is represented by 1 Elder.

I am thinking that the 144k "jews" in revelation that Jesus used to rebuild the tribes of Israel are not really jews but christians who come under persecution during the great tribulation. Why do I think this? Because the Israelites rejected Jesus and so the King of kings took for himself a people that would love him. The previous tribe of Israel could consist of the jews who believe the savior would come and had faith in him given by the prophets' messages.

I haven't gotten this theory ironed out yet, it's still a work in progress, any ideas that are on topic and do not consist or trolling me just to be a dick are welcome.

edit on 5-2-2012 by lonewolf19792000 because: (no reason given)

If the church is to be raptured prior to the tribulation, then it is highly likely that those sealed and martyred during this period are actually Jews. Remember that the tribulation period is more rightly called "the time of Jacobs trouble".

Originally posted by Iamschist
I don't know about the numerology thing with the Elders, is interesting , taking it further 12=3 in numerology and we know what 3=

I think the 144k thing is going to be real. Have you been around Messianic Jews? I went to a Seder at a Temple not far from my home, it was the most incredible evening. Very joyful. I can see a mass conversion like that in Israel.

I have come across one or 2 judeo-christians, but never alot of them, it would be an interesting sight to behold for sure.

It would be nice if that could happen in Israel.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
The designation, elders would indicate they are people from long ago.
I recently read something which explained the number 24 for the elders but I can't remember right now where I did, but it was in relation to people who were resurrected in the distant past. If I run across that reference I will make a post. Now I feel sort of stupid for not making a note of it since it is rather important, meaning you normally don't see anyone attempting to explain who these people are.

reply to post by chr0naut

If the church is to be raptured prior to the tribulation, then it is highly likely that those sealed and martyred during this period are actually Jews. Remember that the tribulation period is more rightly called "the time of Jacobs trouble".

Yeah, but there will still be people getting saved during that time period too as those people who "called themselves jews but were not" will realize their error and repent. Technically it doesn't matter what you were before you became one of Christ's own, you are a christian after accepting him. Your affiliations to your old religion are severed by him.

Originally posted by chr0naut

If the church is to be raptured prior to the tribulation, then it is highly likely that those sealed and martyred during this period are actually Jews. Remember that the tribulation period is more rightly called "the time of Jacobs trouble".

Show me where Scripture says the Church will be raptured? You can't because it don't even imply that anyone will escape, again it's a feel good teaching that don't exist based on a passage taken way out of context by the pulpit masters. Here's the infamous 'rapture' verses used:

1Th 4:13 Now, brothers, we do not wish you to be ignorant concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you be sad as others who have no expectation.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that יהושע died and rose again, so also Elohim shall bring with Him those who sleep in יהושע.
1Th 4:15 For this we say to you by the word of the Master, that we, the living who are LEFT OVER at the coming of the Master shall in no way go before those who are asleep.
1Th 4:16 Because the Master Himself shall come down from heaven with a shout, with the voice of a chief messenger, and with the trumpet of Elohim, and the dead in Messiah shall rise first.
1Th 4:17 Then we, the living who are LEFT OVER, shall be caught away together with them in the clouds to meet the Master in the air – and so we shall always be with the Master.
1Th 4:18 So, then, encourage one another with these words.

But if you continue to the next chapter the timing of this 'event' is more clearer, typical Pulpit master tactic of only speaking half the chapter picking and choosing verses. A little History for you, Verses are non existent in all original manuscripts. Here's the next chapter:

1Th 5:1 Now, brothers, as to the times and the seasons, you do not need to be written to.
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves know very well that the day of יהוה comes as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then suddenly destruction comes upon them, as labour pains upon a pregnant woman, and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But you, brothers, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 For you are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 So, then, we should not sleep, as others do, but we should watch and be sober.

If you know you prophetic writings the Day of YHWH is at the very end when the Kingdom is established and not before. Rapture in the sense it's spoken today is not true and wasn't assimilated into Church false doctrine till the 1800's.

reply to post by mosheh24

Interesting theory but there is 1 huge flaw, and that is your thinking Christians represent the 144,000 based on the erroneous teaching of replacement theology that the Church has replaced Israel which is a huge lie if one actually reads there Scriptures can see the pulpit masters are wolves in sheeps clothing. Does any of this say Church? No but Yisrael

Yeah, thats what I was thinking as well.
The 144,000 are said to be from the specific tribes of Israel, meaning they are genetically related to the tribes.

The idea that non-semitic christians are the new Israel, and that they will be grafted into the 144k of the Israelite tribes makes no sense at all.
If the 144k are not really jews but christians then it means the tribes have lost any relevance.
So whats the point of having christians under the Israelite tribe names...?

Looking at a book to try to find the quote I mentioned earlier, I am reading: Piety and Politics: The Dynamics of Royal Authority in Homeric Greece, Biblical Israel, and Old Babylonian Mesopotamia (The Bible in Its World), Dale Launderville, it seems the role of the elders is to maintain traditions and compliance with proper behavior standards of the kingdom, including the king, which in the case of Revelation, is the Ancient of Days, so they are the jury and as long as they say things like, "Great and righteous and . . .", then you know everything is fine and as it should be.
Looking at The Gospel of Mark: The New Christian Jewish Passover Haggadah (Studia Post Biblica - Supplements to the Journal for the Study of Judaism), J. Bowman, you can see the role of the elders ascending the mountain to have an inspection of the God who Moses has been conversing with, so you see the same role being played as the elders, which is to maintain the status of legitimacy of the king, or in this case, the god.
Bowman compares this Exodus story with the last supper, and the taking of the wine symbolizing the blood which in turn symbolizes the covenant, and then takes the comparison to the twelve stones which were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant by Moses that was made with the twelve elders.
So you could draw an analogy such as made in the OP where you have in the twenty-four elders, the representatives of the old and the new covenants. Of course this is all symbolic, being the Book of Revelation, after all.

reply to post by lonewolf19792000
my 2 cents for the moment ..when the time of the gentiles are full...(church dispensation) The one that restrains will be taken away ..I think this is referring to the Holy Spirit that indwells all true believers ...The Holy Spirit is essential in guiding people to Christ ..With no Spirit and no believers comes the time of Jacobs troubles as someone already mentioned ...In their (the jews) will acknowledge their Messiah that they murdered ...I cant say if the 144000 are symbolic for the 12 tribes or is a literal number ...could be either and wouldn't change the underlying story ....hope that might of helped...peace

reply to post by lonewolf19792000


24 is the Biblical number for the church. The 24 elders sing the 'song of the redeemed'.

Less fuzzy now who the 24 elders are?

reply to post by the2ofusr1

when the time of the gentiles are full...(church dispensation)

Just a quick point to note:

"Times of the gentiles" is used Biblically to speak of the time of human government on Earth. From Nimrod to the antiChrist. I think you meant to say "when the fullness of the gentile be come in". That's speaking of the church dispensation ending with the rapture of said church.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
That actually is a better way of stating it as I had not thought of it in that term ..you know how some people will swoop in like a raptor at the mention of the phrase rapture ...thanks.. peace

reply to post by mosheh24

Show me where Scripture says the Church will be raptured?

Check out Revelation chapters 1-4. In chapter 2 Jesus identifies the "candlesticks" as the churches. Then in chapter 4 when John is "raptured" from Patmos to the throne room in heaven to witness the events of Daniel's 70th week from the mezzanine in heaven the candlesticks are present in heaven. And you might be unaware, but in the Latin Bible, (the precursor to English Bibles), the word "rapture" (raptiro) is actually used in the text for the Greek word "harpazo".

LOL!!! So I suppose your statement is kinda accurate if you only consider the English versions of the Bible!!!

You can't because it don't even imply that anyone will escape,

Really?? Jesus Himself said to pray daily that we "be accounted worthy to escape" the great tribulation. What a trickster!!! Telling us to pray daily to "escape" something that would never happen! Why did Jesus tell the church at Thyatira that unless they repented they would be cast into the tribulation? He also told the church a Laodecia that they would be "spewed out" of His mouth into the tribulation. Then the nerve of Him to tell the church of Philadelphia they would be spared from the that time to come?

again it's a feel good teaching

Of course it is!!!! We Christians should be longing to be with the Lord Jesus and out of this fallen cursed world. That's why the Bible says: "THE SPIRIT AND THE BRIDE SAY COME!" It's called our "blessed hope".

that don't exist based on a passage taken way out of context by the pulpit masters. Here's the infamous 'rapture' verses used:

Logic should already tell you that someday when the Father says to the Son, "Go get em..", there will be members of the body of Christ who will be alive on Earth. These members of the bride of Him will also attend the marriage supper of the Lamb. Also ask yourself this. Why were the Thessalonians angry with Paul thinking he had mislead them about the tribulation and day of the Lord when intense persecution began? The only answer is if Paul taught them that they wouldn't see the great tribulation and the antichrist. Paul had to extol them to press on that it wasn't time yet.

Originally posted by the2ofusr1
reply to post by NOTurTypical

 

That actually is a better way of stating it as I had not thought of it in that term ..you know how some people will swoop in like a raptor at the mention of the phrase rapture ...thanks.. peace

No, no brother, it's not a better way of saying it, "the times of the gentiles" and "fullness of the gentiles" are two different things. Much like in the gospels, the "kingdom of heaven" and "kingdom of God" are two different things, but on the surface appear to be the same thing.

And lol, yeah, let's make a pact to call it the "harpazo" or the "gathering together unto Him" the rest of the thread to press their buttons. Then they can't say "Buuuuuut, deeerrr, the word rapture isn't in the Bible n stuff!"

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
reply to post by chr0naut

 

If the church is to be raptured prior to the tribulation, then it is highly likely that those sealed and martyred during this period are actually Jews. Remember that the tribulation period is more rightly called "the time of Jacobs trouble".

Yeah, but there will still be people getting saved during that time period too as those people who "called themselves jews but were not" will realize their error and repent. Technically it doesn't matter what you were before you became one of Christ's own, you are a christian after accepting him. Your affiliations to your old religion are severed by him.

True, and also consider the entire point of the great tribulation is to drive the Jews to accept the Moshaich Nagid, Christ Jesus. (Hosea 5:15)

reply to post by lonewolf19792000

I have come across one or 2 judeo-christians, but never alot of them, it would be an interesting sight to behold for sure.

I've only ever met 2 in my life, a Jewish husband and wife at my church. They come to the pulpit and teach about the Jewish feast holidays when they come up, really informative, and they love Jesus.

reply to post by NOTurTypical
Do you have a good commentary on the two kingdoms ...I usually put them as one but I usually miss some sutle diffrences alot of the time .....Its anything but easy but is usually easy to understand once shown ...peace