Your Views On 'Smacking' children.

Originally posted by amazed
vasaga has been posting and sharing important information with everyone here, and I for one am very thankful for that. I don't care if this person is 5 or 55, the information IS LEGIT.

For those of you complaining about it, did you LOOK at the information provided with an open mind or even a small amount of curiosity? Or are you AFRAID of what you may LEARN? Why are you so afraid that you may be wrong? If you are willing to look at the situation and actually learn something new, isn't that a good thing? If you can learn healthier ways of disciplining your children, ISN'T that a GOOD thing?

I mean, come on people, if you realize that something you have been doing MAY cause life long problems in some way with your child, and that it is something which you can change, isn't that worth looking into for the sake of your children?

Isn't the "goal" of raising children to end up with healthy, happy, compassionate, empathetic and productive adults? If you found out that changing something you do could help boost the likelihood that your child will be these things, wouldn't you be willing to at least LOOK at the information with an open mind?

For those saying "I'm not reading a book it's useless"... or something along those lines, what the H?

Harm None
Peace

Oh please, thats like saying I'm an aircraft expert because I've seen Topgun a few times, seen a few documentaries and read a few books on the subject. So which would you rather listen to? The armchair expert who has no real experience or the guy who has been flying planes all his life? I'm open to ideas as much as any parent, which I stated if you bothered to read, but there is no way any of us with kids who are ACTUAL parents are going to sit down and read some self-help book or some internet statistics about the best way to raise them. There is none of this 60-40 some kids are like this some kids are like that crap, each and every kid should be raised and taught according to their traits and their personality. As parents we are nurturers and teachers first, disciplinarians and lawmakers second. Anyone with kids will tell you that, and that doesn't come from spouting statstics that were dug up online and waved in our faces about where we are supposedly going wrong with our kids, it comes from SIMPLE EXPERIENCE. My daughters are two of the most well-adjusted, happy and confident kids, and that comes from the people they interact with telling me that, not me just being overly proud.
As I said before, the day they come up with a manual on how to raise kids to perfection, and it is proven to work, a) most parents will be grateful for it, and b) the guy or girl who wrote it will be parentkind's messiah.

Originally posted by mrsoul2009
reply to post by 74Templar

 

Ok man. You have fun over there painting little pictures of animals on your cave walls. We'll let you know when we find out something important.

As I stated before, show me a manual on how to deal with kids that isn't just statistics and numbers and "subject A" and "subject B". Even better, why don't you share some of your own experiences as a parent and how you dealt with them.

Throwing around insults speaks volumes as to the fact you have nothing else to add.

Originally posted by KnightFire

Originally posted by vasaga
reply to post by KnightFire

 

You can "bet" all you want, but until you can show some evidence, your claims are baseless assertions.

Vasaga - So your avatar says "Truth" let me give you and everyone else some "Truth"

You were born on August the 9, 1987 making you 24 years old. You live in the Netherlans and you just finished college. You have no kids yet and you're giving everyone advice, based on publications and internet websites.

So Ray, yes Vasaga's name is Ray, when you have fathered a few kids and gain the experience of fatherhood like I have with 3 kids, 1 one them an adult now, only then can you share your views on parenting.

You said I have baseless assertions because I didn't provide any links or sources. Here is a source for you, I lived it, I have experienced fatherhood and I'm raising children right now. If there is a link for reality, I'd post it for you. Sorry!

So go play your PS3 and leave us parents to talk about parenting.

edit on 3-2-2012 by KnightFire because: (no reason given)

So you can Google. How awesome you must be. Age has little to do with knowledge. If you're older you simply had more opportunities to gather information than someone who's younger. Doesn't mean you've utilized that time, and from what I've seen, you're an example of someone who could've done a much better job developing themselves before having children.

Sure. I have no kids. So what? How do you know I have no brothers/sisters or nephews/nieces? How do you know I have no experience taking care of kids? Oh right. You don't. And even then, it's irrelevant. Why? Read on.

I can even see your delusions in your arguments. You think you're some kind of authority because you've had experience. But again, experience in reference to what? Have you tried other methods? Oh right, you haven't. So you're not entitled to compare either because your experience only showed you one side! That you find it good enough does not mean that other methods are not better. As I said before, personal experience is not enough, because you will drive your biases into the argument and it's by definition a hasty generalization. It's not reliable.

Maybe you think what I posted is wrong, and that's fine, but do you really want to risk the adverse effects on your children? I for one wouldn't. And your "PS3" is comment is nonsensical at best. First of all, I don't own a PS3, and second of all, consoles are not only for kids anymore. If you let your child play whatever he wants on that thing you're being a bad parent.

But this is the typical arguments people rely on.. When you can't refute the arguments, attack the person. The arguments you presented are nothing but fallacies. Here, you might learn something:

Ad hominem
Appeal to authority

And uh.. Let me ask something here... For all the people here who are pro-spanking, is there anyone here that is pro-spanking that were NEVER spanked themselves?

Originally posted by vasaga

Originally posted by KnightFire

Originally posted by vasaga
reply to post by KnightFire

 

You can "bet" all you want, but until you can show some evidence, your claims are baseless assertions.

Vasaga - So your avatar says "Truth" let me give you and everyone else some "Truth"

You were born on August the 9, 1987 making you 24 years old. You live in the Netherlans and you just finished college. You have no kids yet and you're giving everyone advice, based on publications and internet websites.

So Ray, yes Vasaga's name is Ray, when you have fathered a few kids and gain the experience of fatherhood like I have with 3 kids, 1 one them an adult now, only then can you share your views on parenting.

You said I have baseless assertions because I didn't provide any links or sources. Here is a source for you, I lived it, I have experienced fatherhood and I'm raising children right now. If there is a link for reality, I'd post it for you. Sorry!

So go play your PS3 and leave us parents to talk about parenting.

edit on 3-2-2012 by KnightFire because: (no reason given)

So you can Google. How awesome you must be. Age has little to do with knowledge. If you're older you simply had more opportunities to gather information than someone who's younger. Doesn't mean you've utilized that time, and from what I've seen, you're an example of someone who could've done a much better job developing themselves before having children.

Sure. I have no kids. So what? How do you know I have no brothers/sisters or nephews/nieces? How do you know I have no experience taking care of kids? Oh right. You don't. And even then, it's irrelevant. Why? Read on.

I can even see your delusions in your arguments. You think you're some kind of authority because you've had experience. But again, experience in reference to what? Have you tried other methods? Oh right, you haven't. So you're not entitled to compare either because your experience only showed you one side! That you find it good enough does not mean that other methods are not better. As I said before, personal experience is not enough, because you will drive your biases into the argument and it's by definition a hasty generalization. It's not reliable.

Maybe you think what I posted is wrong, and that's fine, but do you really want to risk the adverse effects on your children? I for one wouldn't. And your "PS3" is comment is nonsensical at best. First of all, I don't own a PS3, and second of all, consoles are not only for kids anymore. If you let your child play whatever he wants on that thing you're being a bad parent.

But this is the typical arguments people rely on.. When you can't refute the arguments, attack the person. The arguments you presented are nothing but fallacies. Here, you might learn something:

Ad hominem
Appeal to authority

And uh.. Let me ask something here... For all the people here who are pro-spanking, is there anyone here that is pro-spanking that were NEVER spanked themselves?

edit on 4-2-2012 by vasaga because: (no reason given)

Like I said, go have some kids and then let’s talk.

I know I'm successful in parenting my children. If anyone is delusional, it's you for telling others how to parent their children and not having any of your own. Enjoy your hours of reading and I will enjoy the time I'm spending with my kids.

One day you will have them, hopefully, and when you do I hope the methods you have spent all your time reading about works for you. If not, then you will sit back and say damn, I guess all those parents on ATS were right after all.

It’s your life, your kids and how you parent them is your busy and how I parent mine is my business.

Knightfire - Now moving on to another topic. And don't think you ran me off; I'm just tired of talking about parenting to a non-parent whose only argument is from what he has read in a book or on a website.

And, I will say something that will get me banned if I continue because of your ignorance.

Ignorance is bliss always remember that.

awwww. I used to yell outloud, "dont beat me, dont beat me!" if i was paddled. it put a stop to that!

reply to post by vasaga


firstly, iy doesnt matter if its 99%-1% still means that it doesnt apply to everyone, and secondly, you cant spank a 1 year old coz they dont understand what theyr doing at that age......

Originally posted by 74Templar

I am an ACTUAL parent. My children are highly intelligent and compassionate and guess what? They don't get hit. They have learned how to THINK but follow directions without needing to be hit. Yes, sometimes when given directions they ask "why?", and I will explain the situation. I've taught them to use their minds and most of the time after having things explained they do as I've told them. SOMETIMES, I've given them directions, they've asked why, I've explained my reasons, they give me their opinion, and then I've changed my own stance based on their thoughts. Sometimes we use it as a good learning experience for all of us and they teach ME something new.

I respect them as human beings, they respect me.

IMO that is one of the basis of good parenting, are you willing to learn from your own children?

Another basis of good parenting to me is are you willing to apologize to your own children when you realized you've made a mistake?

I DON'T hit my children and they mind very well. I only hear very good things from my childrens teachers and other adults about their behavior. I have quite often been told that they wished other children were as caring and respectful as mine.

I believe children are born with the capability to become wonderful adults WITHOUT the need to be hit. It doesn't take some kind of special child, or only those born with certain capabilities, for them to be raised without hitting them. It does take a parent willing to come up with ways to discipline their children without hitting. It takes a parent willing to educate themselves, it takes a parent willing to actually stop what they are doing to be involved with their child.

You said.... there is no way any of us with kids who are ACTUAL parents are going to sit down and read some self-help book or some internet statistics.......... Seriously?

I started reading and taking parenting classes and working with children many many years before my first child was born. I started learning all I could about children and their psychology before I chose to have them. To this day I still read and try to learn as much as I can. In ALL aspects of my life. That is a sign of intelligence. Maybe the fact that in your mind "actual" parents do not educate themselves has something to do with those parents believing they HAVE to hit someone.

Maybe that is why I don't have to resort to hitting to receive compliance. I've learned how earn their respect and their trust. If your children respect you and trust you then they recognize that you have their best interests at heart and that you are working for their benefit. With their respect and trust, they are far more likely to follow directions than those who do not trust that their parents will not hurt them if they don't do as told.

And those darned aircraft experts you are talking about, guess what. They have done and will continue to read MANY books and read many articles online so that they can keep up with new technology and information. They did not just become "aircraft experts" without picking up many books and reading them.

You may want to say that one person here who is sharing information does not have parenting experience, and maybe that is the case. But the information that is being shared is information from ACTUAL parents and those who study these things.

@74Templar, I have shared many examples of things which have worked for me, to then hear those who advocate hitting say, "but that won't work with my child". I have come to the conclusion that those who use the "immediate gratification" style of parenting just won't stop needing that immediate gratification no matter how much information you present them with which proves that hitting is harmful.

They are stuck, they want IMMEDIATE compliance, and children are not IMMEDIATE. It takes many years for a child to grow into an adult. And LOL how many adults are compliant? I think many are confused over what they are really teaching their children. We ought to teach them to THINK and not just jump immediately into compliance.

Have I had to change strategies over the years here and there? YOU BET! When my son was about 2 we had horrible times grocery shopping. He loved to go, but would start wanting things and would get very upset when I would say no. I tried quite a few different techniques until I found one which worked. For him, he LIKED going with me so I used that to teach him that he was not allowed to throw fits in the store. It only took ONE time for him to stop. His dad was hiding outside the store, and when our son started throwing a fit I said to him "stop or I will call dad and have him come get you", he shook his head no, told me "no you won't he's at work" in little boy words and continued throwing a fit. I called his dad and zip right into the store he came and took our son out. There was never a next time.

cont....

Harm None
Peace

cont...

Do I believe what worked for my child, having dad get him from the store, would work for ALL children? No I don't, I tried quite a few different things before I found the one which worked for him. Did I have parents in the store harassing me and telling me to spank my child? Sometimes. And... guess what? I DID try spanking my child once after one parent just left me in tears about my childs behavior one day. It didn't work and it actually made things far far worse. It escalated the situation, it made him act out far far more, and he HIT ME BACK. It only broke his heart and made him angry at me. Seeing the look in his eyes, well it broke mine as well. I could see he lost his trust in me and I as a parent will NOT go there.

I said to him "no hitting" and he looked so confused, and in his little boy words and voice said "but you hit me". A situation where my 2 year old taught ME a lesson.

Them trusting me? Well, it has saved them many a times from ending up in a situation which could harm them. They TRUST me. They trust that when I say "if you do _____ then ____ could happen." I will ask them "How else could you deal with this situation so it will work out the way you envision it?" I then ask, "if you do ____ what would it look like in the end? What could happen? How else could you handle this situation? What are the possible outcomes of that choice? and would you be "ok" if things turned out this way?" So instead of just jumping into a situation without thinking it through, they THINK.

Ok, Back to the grocery store situation. Did I quite often see those same parents in the store over and over and over spanking their child? Yep I sure did. It was very sad, I found what worked with my child without hurting him and it actually worked far better than the hitting that for the next several years I kept seeing the same parents do over and over. I suspect they are still hitting their children, as if doing the same thing over and over and over is going to work.

You would think, that these adults would realize, that if they have to keep doing the same thing over and over that the may ought to change their strategy as it is obviously NOT working in the long run. They are not teaching their child in a way which LASTS longer than IMMEDIATE gratification of compliance for the parent.

Try different ideas out, try different strategies. Find what your child likes and use that and realize that it may be a different thing for different situations and at different times.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by amazed


You know it really sounds like we approach the same ends through different methods. I could count on one hand the number of times I've ever smacked my eldest daughter, as you stated there are other methods to attain the same goals, and like you, I learn as much from my kids as they learn from me. The way you come across though is that giving a kid a smack on the bum for stepping too far out of line in your mind is placing us as raving psychopaths who get some perverse pleasure out of beating our kids. It is sadly not the case. My youngest daughter is the hellion of our family, and yes, like you, I have tried many, many different ways of dealing with discipline when it comes to her upbringing. Unlike her older sister, these sometimes do not work. You honestly think I get some great thrill out of a smack? I will be honest with you when I say if it gets to that I feel as though I have failed her, but also know if I let it slide then the situation will get much worse. How? Through trial and error. By learning what works best.

Recently, my eldest daughter was the subject of bullying at school, something I consider much more psychologically damaging than smacking. The boy was a year older than her, and she would come home with bruises and in tears. The school would do a "sit-down" where the boy would laugh it off, any detention he blamed on her and so the cycle continued. Finally I went to his parents to try to reason with them. Their response was it's just the way he is and they weren't going to try and stop him because he could pretty much do whatever he wanted. When I suggested discipline, they said they tried that once and it didn't work, so they gave up.
My solution? I wound up teaching my daughter to defend herself. The next time the boy came near her he got a good smack in the mouth and was humiliated by a girl younger than him. He also learned the hard way that life isn't peaches and cream and has no consequences, that there are real lessons for pushing people.
You may well be rolling your eyes and thinking I'm some advocate of violence, again, this is not the case. I believe if we, as people, have to resort to violence to solve an issue, then we have failed, and THAT is the problem facing society today, that we shoot first and ask questions later. I actually felt bad that I needed to teach my daughter to fight back in order to resolve this problem. I am now worried that my daughter, through learning these new skills will become exactly what her tormentor was. It has taken a lot of coaching and teaching to make her see that it is only self defense. It makes it harder that she is now some kind of school yard hero, so I have a very troubling time ahead.
If you believe you can raise your children into adulthood as upright young adults (and not turn out like the bully back there) without the need for discipline, then my kudos are to you. That doesn't mean it will work for me, or the next guy, or the guy after that. Like us adults, kids are each as unique as the next, and what motivates them and the best call for raising them is a specialised field that is one hell of a steep learning curve, both for child and adult.
Lastly, thankyou for bringing some of your own experiences to the table. I can respect someone who has their own experience to share, and welcome any advice from that corner.

Amazed understands.. There you go folks. You wanted a parent who is successful and follows the same methods, there you go. Your blind personal attacks are even more irrelevant now. But hey, whatever.. Things speak for themselves. By hitting you're teaching violence, by talking you're teaching reason. The problem with parents is that they try to dictate what children should do. The mentality is "this is what I want, and you don't have any say in it, and if you do the opposite anyway, I will smack you". That's a completely unnecessary approach. Children are not unreasonable. If children are too young to understand cause and effect, hitting them would be useless, and if they're old enough to be reasoned with, there's no need for hitting them...

But yeah.. I think I've said all that I wanted to say in here.. The ones who are open to it, good for you, the ones who are not, well, I'll go ahead and flat-out say that you are a big part of the main problems of the world today, which is the initiation of violence. And lastly, I asked this, but no one answered yet:

Originally posted by vasaga
And uh.. Let me ask something here... For all the people here who are pro-spanking, is there anyone here that is pro-spanking that were NEVER spanked themselves?

I presume everyone who promotes spanking in here were spanked themselves..? Shouldn't that ring a bell?

Just the fact that you use the word "smacking"
already creeps me out.

Keep your hands off of them ~
and teach them to keep their hands off
of others.

Just one more thing to share here...

Maltreated children show same pattern of brain activity as combat soldiers

reply to post by 74Templar

I do believe that the majority of parents try to raise their children the best they know how. But NOT ALL. I believe that parents forget that as adults we STILL need to continue learning. As adults our goal as parents ought to be "try to become a better parent today than I was yesterday". Just because we have reached the age of adulthood does not mean we are done with learning new and better ways of doing things.

Do I think all parents who hit are "raving psychopaths"? No, not all but definitely some of them are and I definitely think they are wrong, I think they haven't learned to control their own emotions, I think they are ill informed and uneducated in who and what children are and can be. If the parent can't figure this out, how in the "H" can they expect a young child to be able to?

:-) I am far more understanding of a young persons "stupidity" than I ever will be of adults that is for sure. I get angry with adults in situations where with a child I just do not even begin to go there. Go figure, I guess I figure I did it, I am not in general "above average" (lol though I have with sarcasm stated yep I'm superior to someone who accused those of us who do not hit with believing we are). I grew up in violence which required me to be mean and tough and I changed and if I have done it then gosh darn it so can anyone else with half a brain as far as I am concerned.

One of the things that frustrates me is when parents refuse to stop and think themselves while demanding their child do so. I've heard parents screaming at their children "shut up and stop yelling at your brother" and I've seen parents hit their child who just hit their sibling and then say to them "no hitting", and I just think, uhm yeah cause they have such a great role model that teaches them healthier coping strategies? It is as if they expect their child to be more intelligent and more in control of their emotions than the adult is.

So, my oldest is at University now on a scholarship and is a very wonderful young woman. So I obviously did some things right.

She also at one point in Elementary and then again in middle school had to deal with a bully. She learned how to deal with them without violence and came through the situation learning how to understand her own emotions better and how to verbally handle a bully.

No physical violence required. And honestly? I suspect these days my daughter is far more understanding of her own emotions than I am of my own and she has far more of an ability to control her own emotions than I myself do.

Do I think that a bully NEVER deserves a physical take down? I don't know, I'm on the fence, I don't like violence, I don't agree with it and I believe that the majority of the time a non-violent solution can be found. I have been known to applaud a child for protecting themselves with physical force when they have no other coping strategies.

My son? LOL he's pretty amazing, but I can tell you he has been a hand full from the moment of birth. At times he's been very hard to parent and it would have been easy to just give in and hit him. But we've done it without hitting, it's working and he has become an amazing young man.

It's been an interesting experience I can say that.

To share some more of my own experience and what I see with "statistics" in regards to my own family.... I come from a very large family, all my siblings spanked their children and I have 24 nieces and nephews.. ALL of my nieces and nephews have drug and or alcohol problems, issues with violence, most had children of their own while still a child themselves, and most of them have been in jail or prison. Most of them have multiple marriages and children with multiple partners. Only a few of them finished high school and none of them have gone to college. A couple of them have children who are now having children as children, and THEY are themselves having the same problems. The cycle is continuing for them. My children have never been in trouble with the law, they have no drug or alcohol problems, they have high IQ's and high emotional IQ's, and no children themselves yet, and they are wonderful young adults. So I ask, WHAT is the difference?

Am I supposed to believe that from myself and my siblings that out of these 26 children I somehow just "got lucky" with my children? Why is it that my siblings and their children get angry at me for how I raise my children and tell me I'm going to have trouble if I don't "spank" and that I've "just been lucky so far"?

100% I believe that "luck" isn't part of the equation.

So, in conclusion, hitting to me is NEVER a reasonable thing to do to a child. I quite often feel like hitting adults who believe it's ok to hit children. They are children, you are the adult.

and... last but not least, pick your battles.

Harm None
Peace

reply to post by Indigo5


I'm confusing nothing. Discipline, in and of itself, doesn't in most cases require anything resembling spankings. There are instances, however, where that swat on the butt serves as reinforcement.

For the most part we're in agreement, though.

though losing the soccer game by thirty, and still saying you won, was amusing. But I agree with the point you're making.

Never raised a hand to my child, never needed to.

I guess it all boils down to how you parent your children from the moment they come out of the womb.

The environment you provide will determine what and how they learn.




... seems to be a pretty elementary concept to me.

reply to post by InfoKartel


Silly...As long as it doesn't cross over to abuse, I feel that ANY parent should have a right to discipline their child as they see fit, whether you agree or not. There is a reason so many kids that grow up with single mothers get in more trouble. There is no fear factor...Boys are quickly stronger than their parent figure. When I was a child I think my father smacked me once. It didn't hurt but I remember how much it upset me. It was the act. That act instilled a fear, which led to discipline, and helped me to avoid a lot of bad choices growing up. I digress...The point in my opinion is that nobody, including the government, should have any say how you raise your kids unless it gets to abuse.

Originally posted by tomd1111
reply to post by InfoKartel

 

Silly...As long as it doesn't cross over to abuse, I feel that ANY parent should have a right to discipline their child as they see fit, whether you agree or not. There is a reason so many kids that grow up with single mothers get in more trouble. There is no fear factor...Boys are quickly stronger than their parent figure. When I was a child I think my father smacked me once. It didn't hurt but I remember how much it upset me. It was the act. That act instilled a fear, which led to discipline, and helped me to avoid a lot of bad choices growing up. I digress...The point in my opinion is that nobody, including the government, should have any say how you raise your kids unless it gets to abuse.

The majority of kids that cause trouble, are doing so because they get no attention, positive or negative, from the home. Kids that are cared about and wanted do not hang out on street corners. No-one hangs around street corners if they have a good home life and positive examples from their parents. Those kids are safely tucked up in the warm. If a parent feels that they can discipline their child corporally, then true that is their decision, but it is a very fine line, and many cross it in anger or frustration, and that is often why kids runaway from home and end up on the streets too. The last thing I want is for my child to fear me, I want to be a haven, because it is a rough world out there, and I want to be his guide not another nail in his coffin.

reply to post by tomd1111

There is a reason so many kids that grow up with single mothers get in more trouble.

No. That is because of a whole other reason psychologically speaking. It's not because they were not physically repremanded. Lack of a father figure would spring to mind before any kind of lack of discipline.

The point in my opinion is that nobody, including the government, should have any say how you raise your kids unless it gets to abuse.

Well that's the thing then isn't it...how would you go about enforcing such a law? Just look at the different perspectives in this thread alone...now multiply by a factor of hundreds of millions...

On another note; I find it sad that there are people who go about thinking that if neither of their parents ever physically repremanded them they wouldn't have turned out as good people...hello...it's not your parents hitting you that made the difference, you made the difference.

Originally posted by InfoKartel
...hello...it's not your parents hitting you that made the difference, you made the difference.

Yes...and thank you...I needed to hear that.

reply to post by Biliverdin


I agree that I also wouldn't want my kids to fear me when hopefully, I do have kids someday. This topic really goes too far into areas of psychology, nature v. nuture, laws, etc. I would also handle discipline much different with a girl then a boy.


My two main points really don't have to do with the actual act of hitting a child so I guess I should of stayed out of this one but my general feelings are that the government shouldn't be meddling in childcare minus abuse, there "needs" to be a mix of respect, love, fear of consequences, etc.,

AND many in this country go WAY WAY WAY to far with being sensitive and far too liberal. Nothing makes me want to puke on parents more than seeing youth sports with no winner so that nobody gets there feelings hurt. Other countries are making us look silly due to our weakness and the fear that parents have to discipline their own children......Then after the baseball game with no winner the kids can come home to watch M. Obama on Ellen talk about turkey burgers an why a real one would be evil ..

When and if I have kids I will be driving home from that game they played awful in telling them how much they sucked in a supportive way by either working on their skills or finding something they are good at, all while talking it over eating a double cheeseburger with the small chance of me giving one a "tap" if they get out of line. Let's get America back!