Invisible voiceless gods! Why does modern man still believe?, page 5

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 09:13 PM

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Sometime last month, a missionary couple were traveling through Columbia on a public bus. The father was holding the couple's two baby daughters in his lap as the bus wound it's way down a mountain road. The bus driver did not see a truck that was making it's way up the road until it was too late to stop. The bus driver made an instant decision to steer the bus off the road rather than hit the truck head on. The bus ended up in a river after careering down a steep slope.

The couple survived. Their two daughters died.

Horrible story. At the same time you have to wonder what the "missionaries" were thinking in allowing their children to be on a bus without bringing along childseats. Maybe they had faith that God's love would protect them?

shmick25

posted on Sep, 19 2004 @ 11:43 PM

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I don't really get upset when people argue that there isnt a God. Why? Because it is totally their decision. We are all free to decide whether or not we want to believe in a God or not.

If Christians were practicing what they preached (including me), then we wouldnt condem those that don't believe in God. Whats it say? Judge not or you will be judged.

I chose to believe in God because: (in no order)

- The world is divided by two supernatural forces (all cultures have the same primitave understand of) Good & Evil

- The Bible claimes to be the inspired word of God.
-- It is seen by Archeologists as an historically accurate book
-- It has clear prophecies that have passed and are still to happen
-- It offers a timeless message of hope with the power to change lives

- Evolution just doesnt add up. Natural selection should halve the species not offer the variety we now see

- Most of the wars have been about religion. Why is it such a powerful force?

- Why do many of the governments laws revolve around the 10 commandmants? Because they are a good building block for morals?

- The Bible states that God has a purpose for my life. If I believe it then it is so. If I don't believe it then I simply live and then die.

Just for a moment imagine a world where EVERYONE really believed there wasnt anything more to life than just living and dying. It would be chaos. You could do what you want and have no moral issues regarding anything you did.

Don't you find it amazing that people now are becomming more like this? Revelation talks about.

These are just a few macro reasons why I believe in God.

Ezekial

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 12:49 AM

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We need love because we are are social race. We need bonds with people and need to share our lives with others.

ZeroDeep

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 12:56 AM

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- The world is divided by two supernatural forces (all cultures have the same primitave understand of) Good & Evil

Good and evil are not supernatural forces, it exists in our conventional society quite luminously, though the idea of Good and Evil are subjected to two words defining opposites morals, the context is never always the same, culture to culture.

The Bible claimes to be the inspired word of God.
-- It is seen by Archeologists as an historically accurate book
-- It has clear prophecies that have passed and are still to happen
-- It offers a timeless message of hope with the power to change lives

The Bible claiming to be the inspired word of God does not make it true, nor does it make it a ligitimate stance on the existence of God.

Prophecies mean nothing, during the days of the ancients, men suffering from Chemical inbalances, neureo-pathalogical problems, and myriad of other mental ailments, were lauded to be receiving directing visions from the devine. This does not make it true. Biblical prophecies are too vauge and can me prescribed to numerous accounts expanding over centuries.

What Archeologists say that the Bible is an accurate dictation of history ? Names could help, as would merit.

Dr.Phil has helped millions of people with weight problems; does this make him God ?

- Evolution just doesnt add up. Natural selection should halve the species not offer the variety we now see

Just becuase evolution does not seem viable enough to you ( obviously you are not educated enough on the subject ) does not make it false, and make creationism right. Creationism is held only by subjective hyopthetical stances, no concrete objective evidence to support it's claims.

- Most of the wars have been about religion. Why is it such a powerful force?

Religion is to ambigious of a term, they're are too many religion in this world, over 12000 to be exact. A handfull of religions have fueled wars, a handfull of political ideologies have fueled wars, a handfull of philosopies have fueled wars.

- Why do many of the governments laws revolve around the 10 commandmants? Because they are a good building block for morals?

What goverment ? I do remember American being founded under secular laws, i do remember that the founded fathers ran from religious persecution......

Deep

Facefirst

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 01:07 AM

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Originally posted by shmick25

- Evolution just doesnt add up. Natural selection should halve the species not offer the variety we now see

- Most of the wars have been about religion. Why is it such a powerful force?

There is a huge amount of variation found in fossil records.

The dinosaur fossil records provide ample proof of natural selection. The dinosaurs could not adapt to whatever changes happened to their enviorment and natural selection deemed them unfit to survive. Evolution does not occur overnight. It takes a long time to be noticed. Longer time than human recorded history. That is where the fossils come in handy. Some variations or relatives of certain species, can be traced through time.

On wars: If people actually followed the basic doctrines of most religions, there would be no wars. Religion is powerful and it's huge-influence is sometimes abused for gaining power or pursuing agendas.

Some of this makes me think of the book Scopes Monkey Trial book "Inherit the Wind." A Darrow quote along the lines of the only thing that separates us from the other creatures is our intellect.

[edit on 20-9-2004 by Facefirst]

shmick25

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 01:31 AM

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Hey hey hey,

Your opinion is noted, but you should say, 'In my opinion', and dont phrase your ideals as fact.

It is interesting that you try to shoot down what I believe, yet offer no alternatives. And to use your method of argument:

Prophecies mean nothing, during the days of the ancients, men suffering from Chemical inbalances, neureo-pathalogical problems, and myriad of other mental ailments, were lauded to be receiving directing visions from the devine. This does not make it true. Biblical prophecies are too vauge and can me prescribed to numerous accounts expanding over centuries.

says who? Give me some some concrete evidence ;-)

Good and evil are not supernatural forces

What authoritative source did this come from?

As you can see, this form or argument is pointless.

I agree, there are some amazing things out there that seem to make the Bible more like a story than a fact. Dinosaurs among them, however, in the book of Job, it does mention a beast that can be descripbed as a dinosaur.

I believe, and this theory is shared by others, that dinosaurs walked on this planet the same time as man. Why is it that many countries, China, Japan, Europe have medievil tales of dragons that resemble dinosaurs. Where did these tales come from?

In terms of valid references regarding evolution vs creation, do a search on google, hundreds of web sites address this and argue their cases. Remember, evolution is still a theory.

You would have to be blind to not believe in the supernatural. There is a forum on this site that deals with this very topic, and it is hardly christian in nature. Argue your case there.

Jesus in the Bible (according to my knowledge) is the only person that makes the claim that he is God. Other religions claim they can point the way to a God. I find this really interesting.

The God I worship wants a personal relationship with every human being, and the only thing he asks of me is that I love him back and love other people as myself. How can this be detrimental to society?

Mortis

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 12:13 PM

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Teleological argument - Since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a Divine designer. If earth were even a few hundred miles closer or further away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10.e+243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 0�s). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

Actually, no. The fact that we're here and the Earth is here means that the chance is exactly 100%.

Feynman had a good example of this. He rushed into his class and announced, "There's a car in the parking lot and it has a license plate that reads D77*H41! What are the chances of that being a coincidence?"

The answer (as he pointed out to his students) is "exactly 100%." Pointing to a known phenomina and saying "Oh look! A miracle!" does not make it a miracle or proof of anything. An observation is an observation is an observation.

Hang on a second... What I see you doing here is twisting the perspective.

If I say "What are the chances of me having a redheaded step-child?" The answer today would be 100% If I had asked the same question 20 years ago the answer would not be the same.

What are the chances of a protein molecule existing today? 100% sure. But protein molecules have not always existed. Before they existed, what are the odds that one would form purely by CHANCE? Certainly not 100% Apparently more like the number I stated above.

The chances don't become 100% until the moment something occurs.

Mortis

Xeven

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 01:27 PM

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I still feel like I believe if that makes any since (mostly because of fear of a hell that probably does not exist. The one problem I have is all we have to base our faith in god is.

1. Feelings or self thought.

2. Ancient writings by uneducated peoples.

3. Other people who believe the above.

Why did God decide he should not be known? Why is god so mysterious (invisible)? God has forsaken modern educated men by not gving us the same miracles that he suposedly displayed to the ancients.

God exists by choice? Does belief make god real?

livenlearn

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 01:37 PM

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I think the trickiest thing about religion and why some of us believe and don't believe, lies in how we first aquired or haven't aquired faith. Where did my faith come from? I'm not sure, but I know it's there now, I've gotten my proof, just as Ryanp5555 was saying earlier. Now when I pray, as long as it's pure, not selfish, sincere, I see results that defy all odds I can honestly say, nearly every single time. The times I don't, it seems I just don't simply see it in MY "ideal" time, but His, it always works out in some sort of way and makes me think "UNBELIEVABLE.", suddenly it all makes sense. God does it His way, not ours. I know that there are many ways I can spoil the moment, inadvertantly cause God not to act. I see it happen often which strenthens my belief even more. For example, if I try to anticipate what God might do after I pray for something, it won't happen that way but it will happen in another, consistently. It's amazing. To make a long story short, you have to sincerely open your heart to God and give Him a chance and not try and warp the whole experience with your mortal mind, but let Him do his thing, His way, His time, and He will do it, I believe that, but you have to believe too. It's just tricky not ruining it by allowing uncertainty to creep into our heads. It's hard trying not to anticipate his next move. It's hard not to think, after you pray, "this will make me believe if He does this", that ruins it too, just my opinion. To simply believe and have true faith is tough, but when you find it, you get your proof, He delivers. So much so, that I believe if I could purify my mind completely, He literally could and would do anything I ask, as long as it's in His name and it's pure, like even move a mountain before my very eyes. We are capable of much more, doubt holds us all back. This is only my belief and what I've discovered in my life. I have so much more to learn, it's exciting.

Xeven

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 01:44 PM

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So much so, that I believe if I could purify my mind completely, He literally could and would do anything I ask, as long as it's in His name and it's pure, like even move a mountain before my very eyes.

This is the point. Id like to see just one mountain moved. Even a hill. It would be nice, if God would say hello, just once more, to modern man, before we are judged.

[edit on 20-9-2004 by Xeven]

Gazrok

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 01:54 PM
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One quick question. How is it possible for someone to be a true athiest?

An interesting point. For me, I do not believe in the Christian god. It's own books constantly contradict themselves, and the religion is often forced to change it's basic tenets over time to adapt. If it truly was from a God, then it would be correct from the get-go, and wouldn't be contradictory.

An example would be the Christian views on marriage. As mentioned in another thread, if we all went by the bible, a marriage could only be valid if the bride is a virgin. Likewise, men would still be able to keep concubines, in addition to their wife. Furthermore, there's the whole bit about widows, and the brother then agreeing to father children, etc. How does this compare to marriage as it is practiced today?

There is no question in my mind of "if God exists". I believe in a spiritual order of things, but believe the God of Christians is pure fiction. Does that make me an Atheist or Agnostic? You see, I am an Atheist, for the evidence against the existance of the Christian God has already been given, by the Christians themselves.

A favorite example of mine. Man A is in prison, killed his whole family with a machete'. For years he begs God for forgiveness, accepts Jesus, etc. etc. Man B grows up out in the middle of nowhere. He is a kind man, has a loving family, never heard of this Jesus fellow, etc. Both men die. Who gets into Heaven? Man A. According to the Bible, Man B goes straight to Hell. Now, the Christians will be quick to reinterpret this, and re-examine that, but that is simply further evidence of how they try and change a flawed religion. Surely, if the book was dictated by God, he would have acknowledge this? No, and why? Because the book was written by men trying to achieve power and control. The Adam and Eve story is one of the best examples. According to the book, they were not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge. In other words, a stupid flock is a controllable flock. This was LATER cleverly amended to the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Again, changing the religion to fit.

Mortis

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 01:57 PM
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Xeven,

Something to look at if you're open to it...

Why do you have to be right?

If I choose to believe in God I will spend eternity either in heaven or just dead.

If I choose not to believe in God I will spend ethernity either in hell or just dead.

What do I lose by believing?

Personally, I would rather believe and shoot for heaven than not believe and risk hell.

Mortis

[edit on 20-9-2004 by Mortis]

Gazrok

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 02:24 PM
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What do I lose by believing?

You're integrity...
You're going to live your life as a lie in the hopes that it "might" be correct?

Just out of curiousity, what's so great about Heaven? Everything that is fun in life, would be a sin in heaven! Sex? Nope, can't procreate in heaven, so that's not allowed. I guess you could play some board games, maybe some goony golf...I don't know.

Somehow sitting around all day on a cloud, playing a harp, etc. isn't my idea of fun. Do you find out all the answers to everything? Man, kills the mystery... What if you don't like the answers? If heaven is so great, and God wants us to be with him, why serve a sentence on Earth in the first place?

The whole idea of a "heaven" is nothing more than a manifestation of man's fear of death, and what may or may not be beyond it.

Mortis

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 02:24 PM
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A favorite example of mine. Man A is in prison, killed his whole family with a machete'. For years he begs God for forgiveness, accepts Jesus, etc. etc. Man B grows up out in the middle of nowhere. He is a kind man, has a loving family, never heard of this Jesus fellow, etc. Both men die. Who gets into Heaven? Man A. According to the Bible, Man B goes straight to Hell. Now, the Christians will be quick to reinterpret this, and re-examine that, but that is simply further evidence of how they try and change a flawed religion. Surely, if the book was dictated by God, he would have acknowledge this?

Let me first begin by saying that a lot of Christians don't take the time to understand their own religion. I would be more inclined to say that the Christians are flawed. Not the Bible.

That being said,... When Man A and Man B die both will go to a place of rest. Those who have been evil (and unforgiven) will be in torment. Those who have been good will be in comfort. On Judgement day, the dead will also be judged. Everyone has a built in knowledge of the existence of God. Following God's laws, which are also "built in" is what the dead will be judged on. No one will be judged on information that they don't have. Those who have not heard of Christ will not be judged for not following Him. So come judgement day both will be in heaven. Assuming that the man who killed his family has truly accepted Christ.

Mortis

Mortis

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 02:34 PM
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You're integrity...
You're going to live your life as a lie in the hopes that it "might" be correct?

Doesn't the same apply to someone who says that there is no God?

Just out of curiousity, what's so great about Heaven? Everything that is fun in life, would be a sin in heaven! Sex? Nope, can't procreate in heaven, so that's not allowed. I guess you could play some board games, maybe some goony golf...I don't know.

Somehow sitting around all day on a cloud, playing a harp, etc. isn't my idea of fun.

You get to spend eternity praising and worshiping your creator. May not sound like fun on earth (to you) but in Heaven it's the thing to do.

Do you find out all the answers to everything? Man, kills the mystery... What if you don't like the answers? If heaven is so great, and God wants us to be with him, why serve a sentence on Earth in the first place?

Goes back to choice. What is the value of love that isn't freely given? If God wanted to, he could "make" us love Him. But what would be the point?

Mortis

livenlearn

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 02:48 PM
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Originally posted by Xeven

So much so, that I believe if I could purify my mind completely, He literally could and would do anything I ask, as long as it's in His name and it's pure, like even move a mountain before my very eyes.

This is the point. Id like to see just one mountain moved. Even a hill. It would be nice, if God would say hello, just once more, to modern man, before we are judged.

[edit on 20-9-2004 by Xeven]

I hear ya Xeven, I wish it were that easy too. I've had those same thoughts. I've wonderend why some things are the way they are. I read somewhere that the devils greatest accomplishment is making people think he doesnt' exist, thus God doesn't exist. I have to remind myself of that at times because God's not gonna show me miracles every time I ask. While He has shown me ones on a smaller scale, I believe it was relative to the strength of my faith at that time. I still have to wake up everymorning and dive back into the tornado, and live in our chaotic world, and it's easy for those small miracles to lose their luster in my memory. So I try to wipe my slate clean again when I realize I've slipped, sure enough, here come the small miracles again. It can be very very tough to keep from allowing evil into my life which can prevent these things from happening.
I want to share with you guys an idea I had a while back about trying to prove to a friend that I care about, that God exists. It occured to me that if I prayed for God to make something happen in this persons life, and for Him to reveal to me before hand what it would be, I could write it down, mail it to myself, tell my friend to keep their eyes and ears open, and I would remail it to them. After a while, they could open it and see if it happened. I'm a little afraid of going thru with it because I might not be able to keep my thoughts and expectations pure enough, or maybe they couldn't, or else I think He would reveal himself. Wouldn't that be wild? I'd have to illiminate completely any ideas of it being a test. I'd have to be pure in my mind for my friends salvation and nothing else. I believe He would do it. It's scary tho, I've realized that my friend has to do it in their heart. If I did this, it could have negative effects while being viewed as proof of His non existence, simply because we weren't pure enough, if nothing happened. The consequences of that are scary to me. Although I want some of my friends and family to see and feel what I've seen and felt. I too wish he'd just perform the ultimate miracle, maybe then we'd all realize that the bible is simply not complete, lost transcripts or whatever, even tho I believe it's all apart of the master plan, I wish He'd do it for everyone who is unsure. Then again, if He did, what kind of world would this be? Alice in Wonderland?

dezlil

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 02:57 PM
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Originally posted by Mortis

Why don't you share it with us?

I'll refrain from the Biblical arguments and hit a few of the logical arguments.

Ontological argument - Since over 98% of people throughout history, in all cultures, in all civilizations, on all continents believe in the existence of God � there must be something (or someone) causing this belief.

Teleological argument - Since the universe displays such an amazing design, there must have been a Divine designer. If earth were even a few hundred miles closer or further away from the sun, it would not be capable of supporting much of the life it currently does. If the elements in our atmosphere were even a few percentage points different, every living thing on earth would die. The odds of a single protein molecule forming by chance is 1 in 10.e+243 (that is a 10 followed by 243 0�s). A single cell is comprised of millions of protein molecules.

Cosmological argument - Every effect must have a cause. This universe and everything in it is an effect. There must be something that caused everything to come into existence. Ultimately, there must be something �un-caused� in order to cause everything else to come into existence. That �un-caused� something is God.

Moral argument - Every culture throughout history has had some form of law. Everyone has a sense of right and wrong. Murder, lying, stealing, and immorality are almost universally rejected. Where did this sense of right and wrong come from if not from God?

That's only 4 of the arguments. I could go on, but I won't.

So who made Hell?

Hell doesn't exist yet. The whole fire & brimstone, pointy-eared devil with a pitchfork is a wonderfully weird creation of society. Satan was cast down to earth which is where he currently resides. Hell will be created in the end and Satan will be cast into the lake of fire.

Why does God let a 1 month baby to die?

Goes back to free will. As someone else stated, God can not harm any one. It is contrary to His existance. But, God can and does allow bad/evil things to happen. He allows us to choose. Satan does not want people to choose God. So Satan may kill a child in an attempt to turn the parents away from God.

Going back to your first question, first realize the concept of an omnipotent God. God allows you to choose, but God also knows what you will choose. It's difficult if not impossible for us to imagine. Some would say that that's not really free will then. I would say that there's a big difference between knowing what someone will choose before they choose it, and making the choice for them.
Mortis

I'll assume that you also think that God, is an omniscient being, therefore he knows every choice we'll make before it is made. How can we truely have free will if this is the case? If God already knows what we do before we do it, then there is no possibility we could've chosen any differently.

Mortis

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 03:14 PM
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I'll assume that you also think that God, is an omniscient being, therefore he knows every choice we'll make before it is made. How can we truely have free will if this is the case? If God already knows what we do before we do it, then there is no possibility we could've chosen any differently.

Like I said in my earlier post. I know it's hard to imagine it. Along the lines of trying to grasp the concept of infinity. God's knowing what we will choose doesn't control our choice. I don't know if you will reply to this. God does. If you choose not to reply, He knows it. If you choose to reply, He knows it. The choice is yours, but God knows what choice you will make.

Mortis

Gazrok

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 03:15 PM
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No one will be judged on information that they don't have.

I'm aware of no such disclaimer in the Bible. Simply put, if you don't accept God (according to the Bible), you are going to Hell. It's as plain as day, no exceptions, do not pass Go. And that is my point. The book itself is flawed, yet it is claimed to be dictated by a flawless being. It is a direct contradiction, like a million other such contradictions...

Sorry, but no, simply worshipping my creator every day for eternity does NOT sound like an enjoyable afterlife... I think I'd jump in the Lake of Fire headfirst in preference, hehe.....

Unlike the Bible, Atheism has not been proven wrong time and time again....so the arguement of Atheists as living a lie, hoping that they are right, isn't as valid. They are not blindly ignoring facts to the contrary of their belief.

Facefirst

posted on Sep, 20 2004 @ 03:17 PM
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Originally posted by shmick25

I believe, and this theory is shared by others, that dinosaurs walked on this planet the same time as man. Why is it that many countries, China, Japan, Europe have medievil tales of dragons that resemble dinosaurs. Where did these tales come from?

You would have to be blind to not believe in the supernatural. There is a forum on this site that deals with this very topic, and it is hardly christian in nature. Argue your case there.

Do you know how long it takes something to become fossilized? Then why aren't human(homo sapiens) fossils's found alongside Dino fossils?? Because Dinosaurs existed before mankind arose. I do believe that there might have been an overlap period where the tail end of the dinosaurs and the beginning of man mixed, but I don't think man was there for much of the dinosaur era.

Blind to not believe in the supernatural? One shred of factual proof please. ANything. It used to be that thunder and lightning was the god's anger......now we know it is an natural occurence in the atmosphere. A lot of our supernatural interpetations come out of things like that. ie. Making an explanation for something we do not understand.