9/11: A Boeing 757 Struck the Pentagon

pilotsfor911truth had this to say regarding the Pentagon crash: pilotsfor911truth.org...

Once this maneuver was completed, without going into a graveyard spiral, he started to pull out of the descent at 2200 feet and accelerated only 30 knots more at full power to 460 knots in a descent from 2200 feet to the pentagon in about a minute (Whats Vmo at sea level for a 757? Flap speed? Since it looks like he may have found the flap handle only accelerating 60 knots from 7000 feet, the from 2200 feet at full power). AA77 crossed the highways, knocking down light poles, entered ground effect, didnt touch the lawn and got a 44 foot high target (Tail height of 757) into a 77 foot target completely, without overshooting or bouncing off the lawn, or spreading any wreckage at 460 knots. With a 33 foot margin for error. Wow, impressive. Takes a real steady hand to pull that off. I know it would take me a few tries to get it so precise, especially entering ground effect at those speeds. Any slight movement will put you off 50 feet very quickly. Im sure we all would agree.

Regarding the items in bold: Vmo = Velocity Maximum Operating. This is the maximum speed the aircraft is designed to fly at without over-stressing the airframe. Vmo depends on pressure altitude. At altitudes below around 5,000ft MSL (Mean Sea Level), the change in pressure due to altitude is insignificant and can be ignored. Vmo for a 757 at this altitude is about 350kts. The aircraft crashed at 460kts according to the FDR from the flight, or 400MPH according to the official report (or approximately 347kts). These figures vary significantly. Speed of sound at sea level (not corrected for actual local meteorological conditions on the day) is approximately 661kts. At the time of impact, the aircraft was traveling at close to Mach 0.70, based on the FDR. Based upon the official report, the aircraft was flying at approximately M0.52. ** EDITED ** For comparison, a Tomahawk cruise missile (as has been argued as the actual device that hit the pentagon) travels at approximately 480kts, or Mach 0.75. (Source: www.fas.org... ) ** EDITED ** I would also like to raise the following point: Executing a 330 degree turn, meant putting the Pentagon from their 11 o'clock position (based upon the fact it was a right hand turn they executed) and crucially, resulting in it moving out of view from the flight deck, so it moves around behind them (and out of sight), whilst descending, to make it so they could line up with it. For someone who allegedly struggled to land a Cessna whilst having the runway in sight ahead of them the whole time, this was quite a maneuver! They managed to get the descent (and remember, this would have to be flying visually) right so they weren't so low, they lost sight of the building (something that is possible to do, certainly having completed a turn and having lost visual contact with the building, and also being inexperienced at flying a large commercial airliner, its turning characteristics and effective turning circle). This on its own raises other question: Why go to the trouble of **LOSING** altitude (and thus gravitational potential energy, as well as making the aspect of the building much smaller and harder to see), losing sight with the building during the turn (quite possible to do), in order to fly into the side of the building, risking hitting other obstacles on the way (e.g. light poles/power cables/other buildings/the ground etc..), that could have meant they crash short of the intended target? Surely if they wanted to commit such an atrocious act, they'd simply point the nose at the building, offering themselves a much bigger, clearer target, and cut out not one, but several tough maneuvers that could have meant they don't hit what they intended to hit? [edit on 23-2-2007 by mirageofdeceit] [edit on 23-2-2007 by mirageofdeceit] [edit on 23-2-2007 by mirageofdeceit]

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit For comparison, a Tomahawk cruise missile (as has been argued as the actual device that hit the pentagon) travels at anywhere up to Mach 3.0 according to some well-informed sources, although its actual top speed is classified. It is universally accepted that it flies supersonically. [edit on 23-2-2007 by mirageofdeceit]

The Tomahawk is a subsonic missile. www.fas.org...

Speed: Subsonic - about 550 mph (880 km/h)

But hier is a supersonic cruise missile that is classified.

To put the aircrafts speeds another way, according to the FDR, it was traveling at approximately 7 miles per minute. According to the official story, it was traveling at approximately 5 miles per minute. Does anyone have a scaled plot of its ground track, with supposed times that certain events occurred?

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by mirageofdeceit For comparison, a Tomahawk cruise missile (as has been argued as the actual device that hit the pentagon) travels at anywhere up to Mach 3.0 according to some well-informed sources, although its actual top speed is classified. It is universally accepted that it flies supersonically. [edit on 23-2-2007 by mirageofdeceit]

The Tomahawk is a subsonic missile. www.fas.org...

Speed: Subsonic - about 550 mph (880 km/h)

But hier is a supersonic cruise missile that is classified.

I stand corrected; I'm confusing this with another missile entirely.

you must have been paid by the governement, right ? Or maybe they got your wife and kids in a farm in Iowa until you reach 50000 positive replies. Mine is not.

Quick homework for those who believe a 757 crashed the pentagon at over 400 knots (the oficial data): Go and buy MS Flight simulator X Install into PC. Buy one of those neat 757-200 packages (paint it in AA colors-optional) Then take put all preferences to realistic (if you use another Flight simulator such as X-plane, put in preferences _remove flying surfaces at over vmax). Take off at full throttle and select an Dulles airport as point of take off. Acelerate after leveling the plane with autopilot for let say 500 feet above ground, keep acelerating till you pass 363 knots.... The airplane sheds flaps, slats and in some cases even a wing!!!.... the lesson: A 757 cant fly that low at that speed, any pilot will know that for sure... Now, more data : check this page on BOEING website: 757 DATA from Boeing website: Now go to page 16 and you will see that M stands for grond clearance when the gear is UP, the ground clearance is 16 feet 1 inches, can someone Explain how the engines did not touch the ground (even if the 757 was in a very shallow dive) if the hole in the pentagon is lower? They dont call it Vmax for nothing.......

Good catch, but (M - L) is the ground clearance with the gear up. 13 ft in the nose by my calcs (not allowing for any pitch down). One thing to note is that those engines are going to be going somewhere....... where are they? I know that is an obvious point, but just considering the aircraft is diving, those puppies are going to be sticking in the ground pretty quickly I would have thought. X-Planes structural modeling is not as good as its aerodynamics, so I wouldn't read too much into that. What I'd expect above anything else is for the wings to fold up during a high g maneuver (relatively), or for some part of the tail to fail. [edit on 11-3-2007 by mirageofdeceit]

Well, I know it is a little off-topic, but I was wondering about author of this thread, Catherder. He wasn't logged on ATS since 2005. Was he banned or something? Or he just gave up posting after he realised his theory was mostly debunked? I'm curious...

My god... Yes, Catherder was found to be a secret NSA plant here to throw us off thae hard truth that no 757 hit the pentagon, the smoking gun. Because Hani Hanjour made a point of acting like a bad pilot a few times he was, because 757s can't be flown by remote control as a missile, becuase the above mentioned calculations/simulations prove the plane would've torn up first under pressure, no 757 could possible have damaged the building. Becuase the "damage is inconsistent" with a 757, clearly faked with bombs laden with plane parts and fake bodies to simulate a 757 damage (tho not done right obv.), to topple the poles, smash and warp the generator, tear out a const. fence, scrape the air-intake structure, etc. All special effects and planted witnesses! The ground is untouched, and there are no plane parts, except for the plane parts that were planted. Rummy himself admitted it was a missile, there are Global Hawks missing, lots of retired military guys are sure it was a missile, a drone, anything but a 757. Witnesses confirm the AA/UA plane's northern flight path and thus 80-foot flyover, the FDR confirms the same path and a 500-foot flyover, etc. It all lines up perfectly and so the gov. apologists are on the run. keep up the excellent work guys!

Originally posted by johnlear I was looking at the picture of where the airliner went into the Pentagon, there is a neat circular hole. I was wondering if anybody could tell me where the engines and the wing and tail went into the Pentagon to create all that fire and debris in the video of the simulated crash. I mean it doesn't look like the walls suffered any damage how did the engines and wings get into the Pentgon?

The Lear has spoken. Listen, and become wise.

Originally posted by Caustic Logic ...because 757s can't be flown by remote control as a missile...

Yeah they can. Applying Existing FMCS for Remote Control/Programming Boeing 757-200 Remote Capabilities 757/767 - The Only Communter Planes That Can Fly Remote "Home Run" System **Not related to Boeings recent patent acquisition. "Home Run" System | Another Article

On the morning of December 1, 1984, a remotely controlled Boeing 720 transport took off from Edwards Air Force Base (Edwards, California), made a left-hand departure and climbed to an altitude of 2300 feet. ... The aircraft was remotely flown by NASA research pilot Fitzhugh (Fitz) Fulton from the NASA Dryden Remotely Controlled Vehicle Facility. Previously, the Boeing 720 had been flown on 14 practice flights with safety pilots onboard. During the 14 flights, there were 16 hours and 22 minutes of remotely piloted vehicle control, including 10 remotely piloted takeoffs, 69 remotely piloted vehicle controlled approaches, and 13 remotely piloted vehicle landings on abort runway. It was planned that the aircraft would land wings-level and exactly on the centerline during the [Controlled Impact Demonstration], thus allowing the fuselage to remain intact as the wings were sliced open by eight posts cemented into the runway. 3.3 MB MOV video download Click for photo The Boeing 720 landed askew... [NASA] In the above photograph the B-720 is seen during the moments of initial impact. The left wing is digging into the lakebed while the aircraft continues sliding towards wing openers. [NASA]

SOURCE If they could do that in 1984, surely it can be done now on a commercial 757/767, like the above links indicate. [edit on 12-3-2007 by damajikninja]

Originally posted by damajikninja

Originally posted by johnlear I was looking at the picture of where the airliner went into the Pentagon, there is a neat circular hole. I was wondering if anybody could tell me where the engines and the wing and tail went into the Pentagon to create all that fire and debris in the video of the simulated crash. I mean it doesn't look like the walls suffered any damage how did the engines and wings get into the Pentgon?

The Lear has spoken. Listen, and become wise.

Yes, do so. And then read the next few posts from him as he pesters Cat Herder to answer his question, and finally gets clarification that he was looking at the punch-out hole inside the C-Ring and quietly backed down. [pages 2-3]

Skibum: "Why don't you try looking at some of the links provided instead of dwelling on a picture taken of one of the inner rings where something punched through that wall from the inside."

CatHerder: "Uh, the photo you are referring to is the inside of the 3rd ring - the final point of penetration."

Johnlear: "Oh. Thanks CatHerder. (Going back to regroup)."

That's the wise part. I'm not sure if you meant it that way Ninja, but thanks for the illustration. Fact is, the front impact hole had 100 feet of columns uniformly removed on the first floor, plus part of the second floor removed where the tailfin hit. The right engine was banking high and entered just under the 2nd floor slab, the left engine at about ground level. frustratingfraud.blogspot.com... widely-cited "intact" columns barring a 757 addressed here: frustratingfraud.blogspot.com... ns-taking-stand-against.html [edit on 12-3-2007 by Caustic Logic] [edit on 12-3-2007 by Caustic Logic]

Points to you for needling me on the Lear issue... I was just pointing out that Lear isn't so ready to believe that a 757 hit the Pentagon. What of the remote systems I mentioned? That was the result of about 30mins of research. I'm sure you reealize that I am not trying to butt heads with you; I am just keeping with the spirit of debate, and trying to throw conjecture at you. The easiest way to prove something is to attempt to debunk it! NOTE: I am a newbie 9/11 researcher. I will point out that I was the guy that created the 9/11 for Newbies thread. I am attempting to learn more by opposing others positions. I figure that if I try my best to disprove another person's stance, I should be able to draw conclusions from their defense of the topic to find out how well it holds water. [edit on 12-3-2007 by damajikninja]

Originally posted by damajikninja Yeah they can.

That was exactly my point, as I'm sure you know from the thick sarcasm inherent there. Great post BTW. It's always irked me why people insist no 757 could be responsible, had to be a missile if it were an inside job. 757's can become missiles of course, so why not guided missiles? Then what you get is perfectly evil inside job, passengers on board, calls prob. faked but otherwise the evidence is all consistent. Which it is, with a few mysteries and a ton of prob. unnecessary secrecy.

Hah, looks like I've got your back on that one then Caustic! Yeah, I have always thought that it could have been either a commandeered airliner or a missle. Like you, I have been frustrated with those that said it couldn't be a 757. Of course it could! At this point in my research, I'm not sure if it was an e-hijacked plane or not, but it's certainly a possibility. A "Home Run" type system on a 757/767 could have easily been utilized. Of course, the missle theory holds some water too. Either way, there was much more going on with the pentagon strike than just a poorly trained Arab-pilot with a box-cutter.

Sweet. i've got your back as well should you need it. And welcome, newbie you're doin fine. Personally I don't like ruling things out, and can't even rule out the Arab Pilots. They may have had some inside help, like someone smuggling in guns on the planes, and someone else smuggling in a hole in the air defense. Everybody knew it was coming. Patriot Act, Afghan War, Iraq War, DHS, etc. all planned, none making sense or standing a chance before 9/11. As for the specifics of remote control, I have one post on my blogs compiling what I've found and decided. maybe a few good points in there. I'll look at your closer sometime soon. I must jet for a few now. Peace and stealth. they-let-it-happen.blogspot.com...

Excellent thread, I now believe a plane hit the penagon. (once a skeptic) Although a few things bother me though. One thing that I do not understand is, the pentagon is our countries most important facility. Why would there not be more video of this. My gas station up town has 12 cameras, how could they only capture one video of this. Another thing kinda off this topic but we see alot of ufo video and pictures that have been photoshoped or hoaxed. Is there anyway that some of these pictures may have been doctored (looking at both sides of scenario) or are these purely legit?

Originally posted by Caustic Logic My god... Yes, Catherder was found to be a secret NSA plant here to throw us off thae hard truth that no 757 hit the pentagon, the smoking gun.

Hey i work at NSA and i take exception to what you said about being a plant. I am on the truth seekers side and so are other people at NSA.

Originally posted by Starwatcher Excellent thread, I now believe a plane hit the penagon. (once a skeptic) Although a few things bother me though. One thing that I do not understand is, the pentagon is our countries most important facility. Why would there not be more video of this. My gas station up town has 12 cameras, how could they only capture one video of this. Another thing kinda off this topic but we see alot of ufo video and pictures that have been photoshoped or hoaxed. Is there anyway that some of these pictures may have been doctored (looking at both sides of scenario) or are these purely legit?

Wow! That's a rare thing... the changing of minds. as for the video, yes there is more, but not a ton. We've seen the Doubltree video (shows nothing except what Gwion X thinks is a wingtip of the plane), and the Citgo video, which shows a flash maybe from the plane reflecting off a car but nothing else. The Pgov vid is all that shows the plane so far. A lot of secrecy yes, some cameras removed or not admitted. but what we've seen proves nothing either way - neither a plane for certain nor a non-plane nor much to clue us in on a flight path. Some suspect the secrecy is to foster useless theorizing of the no-757 variety. Could be doctored, we can neve know for sure. So I only chack to see if it fits the other (phys and witness) evidence. It basically does. Supporting evidence only and even then generally ignored or proven to be doctored.

Originally posted by ULTIMA1

Originally posted by Caustic Logic My god... Yes, Catherder was found to be a secret NSA plant here to throw us off thae hard truth that no 757 hit the pentagon, the smoking gun.

Hey i work at NSA and i take exception to what you said about being a plant. I am on the truth seekers side and so are other people at NSA.

Sorry man, was just being silly. "CIA" is overdone is all and that's what came to mind in its stead. Does NSA even do plant stuff I wonder?