God's seventh-day Sabbath: Its not Sunday.

Here is a good resource to help you determine the differences in dates.

www.calendarhome.com...

For example if Jesus died in 33 AD then Nisan 16 did indeed fall on a Roman Sunday...
...if He died 31 AD then 'the first day of the week' was a Wednesday.

Passover was always Nisan 14-15 at the time of a full moon whatever year it was.

reply to post by troubleshooter

“Sabbath and New Moon (Rosh Hodesh), both periodically recurring in the course of the year. The New Moon is still, and the Sabbath originally was, dependent upon the lunar cycle”
(Universal Jewish Encylopedia, 410.)

This is apparently an obscure publication from a hundred years ago and hardly authoritative.
All of this is worthless "proof" to annoy Seventh Day Adventists, and meant to dupe people who might be impressed by high sounding titles.

Fromabove,

re: "Roman's 14 declares that either day, or any day may be respected above another. It is a person's choice..."

The subject of Romans 14 from start to finish has to do with what people eat. Paul is writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God's law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. This passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

Right, what you said about the Romans.
Look up scruples or scrupulous, where that comes from.
In ancient Rome scrupulous people observed every day and each day had things that you can and can't do, or particular things that you were supposed to do on that day.
Paul was saying it was OK to be unscrupulous, but not in the modern sense of the word.

There is also evidence from the writings of Philo, Josephus and the Essenes...
...confirming that it was Jewish practice to determine the weeks and sabbaths by the lunar cycle.

“Again, the periodical changes of the moon, take place according to the number seven, that star having the greatest sympathy with the things on earth. And the changes which the moon works in the air, it perfects chiefly in accordance with its own configurations on each seventh day. At all events, all mortal things, as I have said before, drawing their more divine nature from the heaven, are moved in a manner which tends to their preservation in accordance with this number seven. … Accordingly, on the seventh day, Elohim caused to rest from all his works which he had made.”

Philo - Allegorical Interpretation, 1 IV (8)

Notice Philo's connection between lunar 'weeks' and 'creation week'.

It is obvious that his comments are simply descriptive of Jewish practice...
...like the following concerning Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles.

“But to the seventh day of the week he has assigned the greatest festivals, those of the longest duration, at the periods of the equinox both vernal and autumnal in each year; appointing two festivals for these two epochs, each lasting seven days; the one which takes place in the spring being for the perfection of what is being sown, and the one which falls in autumn being a feast of thanksgiving for the bringing home of all the fruits which the trees have produced”

Philo - The Decalogue XXX (159)

Scripture clearly states that Unleavened Bread and Tabernacles begin on the 15th day of their respective months.

Leviticus 23:5-6 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

Leviticus 23:34 The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.

So Philo is confirming that the 15th of the month is a seventh day Sabbath every year...
...and always when the moon is full...

"And this feast is begun on the fifteenth day of the month, in the middle of the month, on the day on which the moon is full of light, in consequence on the providence of Elohim taking care that there shall be no darkness on that day.”

Philo’s Special Laws II, The Fifth Festival, Section XXVIII (155)

This coincidence of a weekly Saturday/Sabbath, 15th day of the month and a full moon every year...
...is not possible using a Julian/Gregorian calendar reckoning.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by colbe

 

The first Christians assembled together to worship God on the Lord's Day which is Sunday.

There is no document that makes that correlation that you are just assuming, that the Lord's Day was Sunday.
The Bible says that Jesus was Lord of the Sabbath, so the Lord's Day would be the seventh, not Sunday.

Why does most all of Christianity gather together (assemble) to worship God on Sunday? I gave you the
Scripture verses. We can know. God said the Sabbath would be changed. It was, to the Lord's Day, to
honor Jesus Christ, God, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity.

reply to post by rstrats


I like your kind reply.

My replies in this thread have not been my opinion.

Dear brother, MO is not of any importance. This is the practice of the first Christians, they passed it down orally and it is revealed in the written Word. There's your proof. They didn't use the word Sunday but we know what day the "first day of the week" is... Pretty important when you think we still must keep God's Commandments in the New Covenant too.

Some folks 2000 years later object to worshiping God on Sunday when this has been the practice since the beginning of Christianity. At first, makes sense, Christians gathered in homes. What about all those steeple topped buildings and beautiful Cathedrals dotted around the world? And they fill up every Sunday morning with Christians? Just teasing....

God is going to show the world, personally, maybe next year, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the greatest form of worship. The Holy Mass saves the world.


God bless you rstrats,


colbe

It is a mortal sin for Catholics to miss Mass on Sunday. Illness is acceptable reason not to attend.

Some people claim that although Scripture mandates a day of rest, there is NO requirement to attend Church. But this is really not the case. The Book of Leviticus spells out the requirement to keep holy the Sabbath in the following language: Six days shall work be done; but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest and sacred assembly; you shall do no work; it is a Sabbath to the LORD. (Lev 23:3). Thus, notice how this text spells out that the Sabbath is not only for rest but for “sacred assembly.” This phrase, “sacred assembly” is what is meant by the word “Church.” The word “Church” means “assembly.”

Further, it is clear enough that Jesus understood the 3rd Commandment to include sacred assembly for in his own observance of Sabbath He attended the “synagogue” (another word for “assembly” or “gathering”). Scripture says Jesus attended the synagogue on the Sabbath habitually (cf Lk 4:16).



[16] And he came to Nazareth, where he was brought up: and he went into the synagogue, according to his custom, on the sabbath day; and he rose up to read.

colbe,

re: "... but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest and sacred assembly... notice how this text spells out that the Sabbath is not only for rest but for 'sacred assembly'".


Any particular reason for picking out the "sacred assembly" part and omitting the "seventh day" part?

So? Because someone wrote something that contradicts me and any other normal Christian, then I am wrong? I don't think so.

If you have any evidence to support your opinion that the Last Supper was not a Passover seder meal, I am all ears. Perhaps you should refer to Holy Writ, Matthew Ch. 26: 16-20, Douay-Rheims version:

[16] And from thenceforth he sought opportunity to betray him. [17] And on the first day of the Azymes, the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the pasch? [18] But Jesus said: Go ye into the city to a certain man, and say to him: the master saith, My time is near at hand, with thee I make the pasch with my disciples. [19] And the disciples did as Jesus appointed to them, and they prepared the pasch. [20] But when it was evening, he sat down with his twelve disciples.
Notes:
[17] Azymes: Feast of the unleavened bread.
[17] Pasch: The paschal lamb.

Pasch refers to Passover. The Last Supper was a Passover meal.

Which would have been Friday night, not Thursday night, when the Last Supper was held.

Passover, like Shabbat, runs from sunset to sunset. So, the Last Supper was held the first evening, after sunset, as it is even to this day. The following day would also have been Passover, and Passover would have then ended at sunset.

Sunset to sunset. This comes from the Book of Genesis.

No, he wasn't. Jesus was called rabbi as a title of respect by his disciples. He was not some sort of certified graduate from a rabbinical college.

Christ is called "Rabbi" in Scripture. Rabbi simply means teacher. Even today, rabbis have followers or adherents. And Christ certainly was a teacher, with quite a large following of adherents. Semantics.

He on purpose broke the Sabbath in order to annoy the Jewish religionists.

No. Christ kept the Sabbath. He came to renew the Torah, not to destroy it. It was the envious and jealous Pharisees that falsely accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath.

The Pharisaic tradition, by Jesus' day, had developed into an array of petty rules having to do with the minutiae of the law. It focused on physical works that had little to do with the spirit and intent of the law—and which, in fact, often violated the law.

No, the Pharisees did a lot to loosen restrictions on permissible activities on the Sabbath, not the other way around.

The rabbinical laws and traditions surrounding Shabbat - even today - are quite complex, and exceptionally difficult to follow. The rabbis put these rules in place as a "fence around the Torah", which means the rabbis placed additional strictures even beyond the letter of the Law. These strictures violate the Torah because the Torah commands that nothing should be added nor subtracted from the Law.

The Pharisees did not loosen restrictions on permissible activities on Shabbat. Anyone familiar with rabbinical tradition even in our modern day would know this to be true.

Like I already said, Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. That means it is something to benefit us, not something that we become a slave to and worship it as a form of idolatry.

And like I said, Christ did not come to abolish the Shabbat. He came to restore Shabbat and to restore the Torah. To write the Torah "into our hearts", and to bring back the lost sheep of Israel. He came to uphold the Ten Commandments, not to destroy them.

His law, the one that he expounded on when he taught the people, as the new Moses, which overrides the old law.

Christ created no new laws that were not already found in the Torah.

It was, before Jesus came along and demonstrated that he was speaking with the authority of God, and that what he said was now law.

See above.

CookieMonster09,

re: " [17] And on the first day of the Azymes, the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the pasch?"

Was this the 14th or the 15th of Nisan? I ask because Leviticus 23:6 says that the Feast of Unleavened Bread is on the 15th but I think it is generally accepted that it was the 14th when the disciples came to the Messiah.



re: "[20] But when it was evening, he sat down with his twelve disciples."

About what time was it when evening began?

Originally posted by rstrats
colbe,

re: "... but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest and sacred assembly... notice how this text spells out that the Sabbath is not only for rest but for 'sacred assembly'".


Any particular reason for picking out the "sacred assembly" part and omitting the "seventh day" part?

Hi rstrats, how are you?

These people who stay stuck in the Old Covenant but still want to interject Jesus are so off.

Jesus said I come to make things new. The Old Covenant, only a small group knew of God and His laws. In the New Covenant all the world would learn the love of God and love of neighbor. How much greater! Yes! Don't you prefer to be part of the New Covenant? We learn, we see how much God loves us and how He desires us to love too.

God was displeased with the Old Covenant Sabbath. It would be changed in the New Covenant. Celebrating, honoring Our Lord. Isn't He worth it? He arose on the first day of the week, Sunday. The Sabbath is now the
"Lord's Day."


Isaiah 1:13
Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths, and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked. [14] My soul hateth your new moons, and your solemnities: they are become troublesome to me, I am weary of bearing them.

colbe,

re: "God was displeased with the Old Covenant Sabbath."

Assuming you're referring to the 4th commandment (3rd if you're RC) and the 7th day of the week observance, I'm not aware of any scripture that says that.


re: "It would be changed in the New Covenant...The Sabbath is now the
'Lord's Day.'"

Assuming that by "Lord's Day" you're referring to the first day of the week, I'm also not aware of anywhere in the NT that changes the observance from the 7th day of the week to the first day of the week. What do you have in mind?

Was this the 14th or the 15th of Nisan? I ask because Leviticus 23:6 says that the Feast of Unleavened Bread is on the 15th but I think it is generally accepted that it was the 14th when the disciples came to the Messiah.

From Judaism 101's web site at www.jewfaq.org...:

"All Jewish holidays begin the evening before the date specified on most calendars. This is because a Jewish "day" begins and ends at sunset, rather than at midnight. If you read the story of creation in Genesis Ch. 1, you will notice that it says, "And there was evening, and there was morning, one day." From this, we infer that a day begins with evening, that is, sunset. Holidays end at nightfall of the date specified on most calendars; that is, at the time when it becomes dark out, about an hour after sunset."

So, yes, the Last Supper would have occurred shortly after sunset on Passover.

About what time was it when evening began?

Sunset starts a new day. See above.

Isaiah 1:13 Offer sacrifice no more in vain: incense is an abomination to me. The new moons, and the sabbaths, and other festivals I will not abide, your assemblies are wicked. [14] My soul hateth your new moons, and your solemnities: they are become troublesome to me, I am weary of bearing them.

The quote refers to a specific point in time - Just before the Assyrian destruction. G-d stated that they should stop making sacrifices "in vain". He wasn't against sacrifices - He was against the Jewish priests making sacrifices that were contrary to the Law and the spirit of the Law.

The priests became abusive. They would take advantage of the common people when they would come to make sacrifices in the Temple. This is what G-d was protesting, among other abuses.

At the end of the book of Ezekiel, the prophet is given a complete description of the Third Temple, which will include sacrificial offerings. Example, from the Douay-Rheims, Ezekiel, Chapter 46, verse 4:

And the holocaust that the prince shall offer to the Lord on the sabbath day, shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.

The sacrificial offerings will be reinstated with the rebuilt Third Temple. G-d isn't against sacrifices - He is against vanity and unlawfulness when making sacrifices. Just as He rejected Cain's sacrifice, and accepted Abel's sacrifice in the Book of Genesis.

These people who stay stuck in the Old Covenant but still want to interject Jesus are so off. Jesus said I come to make things new.

Renewed, not new. G-d doesn't break His promises. Christ came to bring back the "lost sheep" of Israel that had strayed from the Torah. Christ said in Matthew 5:18:

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the Law, till all be fulfilled.

Some erroneous Christians and theologians would have their adherents believe that Christ abolished the Ten Commandments, and we are now free to do as we please, sin as much as we like, because, after all, "Christ is our Savior". That's not a good long-term strategy for eternal salvation.

Christ kept Torah, despite modern religious opinions to the contrary. He didn't worship statues, pray the Rosary, or celebrate Mass on Sundays. If you want to be more "Christ-like", you would follow His footsteps, and follow the Torah to the utmost.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

If you have any evidence to support your opinion that the Last Supper was not a Passover seder meal, I am all ears. Perhaps you should refer to Holy Writ, Matthew Ch. 26: 16-20 . . .

Under Thayer's Greek Lexicon, look at def. 4 for pascha,

the paschal festival, the feast of Passover, extending from the fourteenth to the twentieth day of the month Nisan . . .
biblesuite.com...

Rabbi simply means teacher.

They are pretty persnickety about the title in synagogues from my understanding of the situation. No one would be allowed who taught, but wasn't formerly trained as a rabbi, would get away with calling themselves a rabbi.
To repeat myself, again, Jesus was not a rabbi in any sense of the word other than within his own group of followers, where it was a term of respect.

Semantics.

Which is what we are here for, determining what words mean. If Jesus was really a rabbi, then that fact would have shown up in the New Testament other than coming out of the mouths of his disciples in the gospels.

No. Christ kept the Sabbath. He came to renew the Torah, not to destroy it. It was the envious and jealous Pharisees that falsely accused Christ of breaking the Sabbath.

You are trying to be a revisionist by following a lot of cranks who just say things because it is the party line, without any reality or tradition even, to back it up.
What does "renew" mean? The answer is that it means nothing but just sounds good to people who want to pretend that we all have to follow some book that the Jews wrote a long time ago as a sort of national tradition. Jesus did not destroy the Law, but by "Law" he did not mean what was being passed off at the time as Moses. There was no "false accusations". According to the Law, meaning what you find in the Torah, you stayed in your house unless there was a festival where provision was spelled out that you can participate in it on the Sabbath.

The Pharisaic tradition, by Jesus' day, had developed into an array of petty rules having to do with the minutiae of the law. It focused on physical works that had little to do with the spirit and intent of the law—and which, in fact, often violated the law.

They may seem "petty" to you, but it was a freedom, within "acceptable" constraints, so people could do things like go to the synagogue on the Sabbath.

The Pharisees did not loosen restrictions on permissible activities on Shabbat. Anyone familiar with rabbinical tradition even in our modern day would know this to be true.

So what are your credentials? Are you some sort of "rabbi" in your little "Messianic Judaism" cult?

And like I said, Christ did not come to abolish the Shabbat. He came to restore Shabbat and to restore the Torah. To write the Torah "into our hearts", and to bring back the lost sheep of Israel. He came to uphold the Ten Commandments, not to destroy them.

According to your fantasy but not according to the New Testament.
Jesus' attempt at gathering the "lost sheep" was a failure.
Matthew 23:37
"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.
(2011 NIV)

Christ created no new laws that were not already found in the Torah.

That is wrong. Jesus pointed out that Moses allowed a man to divorce his wife with a letter. Jesus said that you cannot, and if you don't like it, don't get married, or become a eunuch.
This is reiterated by Paul who said this was a teaching (against divorce) directly from Jesus himself.

Under Thayer's Greek Lexicon, look at def. 4 for pascha, the paschal festival, the feast of Passover, extending from the fourteenth to the twentieth day of the month Nisan . .

Strange. You provided a quote that only goes to support my previous statement that the Last Supper was a Passover meal. The festival - as do many of the Jewish festivals - can last several days. But the actual first main Passover "seder" meal is on the first evening of Passover.

For example, in 2013, Passover runs from April 14th through the 22nd. But the first Passover "seder" meal is on the night of the 14th.

They are pretty persnickety about the title in synagogues from my understanding of the situation. No one would be allowed who taught, but wasn't formerly trained as a rabbi, would get away with calling themselves a rabbi. To repeat myself, again, Jesus was not a rabbi in any sense of the word other than within his own group of followers, where it was a term of respect.

Synagogues didn't exist at the time. Christ preached in the Second Temple era. It wasn't until after the destruction of the Second Temple that the focus of the Jewish leadership turned towards a more scholarly bent, and would formulate what we now refer to as modern-day "rabbis".

A rabbi is simply a teacher of the Torah. This is the very definition of a rabbi. The term is first used around 200 B.C., in the Mishnah (the Jewish "Oral" tradition dating back to Moses). The semitic root of the word means "revered" and "great".

Christ was most emphatically a teacher of the Torah, and based on the sheer number of "Christian" adherents, was perhaps the greatest Torah teacher of all time. All of his teachings can be pulled from both the written and the oral Torah.

Let's now look at Holy Writ, as there are no less than 15 instances where Christ is called, "Rabbi". Not only do his disciples call him, Rabbi, but also we find outsiders, such as the Pharisee, Nicodemus, referring to Christ as "Rabbi" :

Matthew 26:25: "And Judas that betrayed him, answering, said: Is it I, Rabbi? He saith to him: Thou hast said it."

Matthew 26:49: "And forthwith coming to Jesus, he said: Hail, Rabbi. And he kissed him."

Mark 9:4: "And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Rabbi, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles, one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

John 1:49: "Nathanael answered him, and said: Rabbi, thou art the Son of God, thou art the King of Israel."

John 3:1-2: "Now there was a Pharisee, a man named Nicodemus who was a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2 He came to Jesus at night and said, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him.”

John 4:31: "In the mean time the disciples prayed him, saying: Rabbi, eat."

Which is what we are here for, determining what words mean.If Jesus was really a rabbi, then that fact would have shown up in the New Testament other than coming out of the mouths of his disciples in the gospels.

See above. As if the disciples weren't credible - they are - but you also see Nicodemus, a Pharisee, referring to Christ a rabbi -- a revered, great teacher of the Torah.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

The quote refers to a specific point in time - Just before the Assyrian destruction. G-d stated that they should stop making sacrifices "in vain". He wasn't against sacrifices - He was against the Jewish priests making sacrifices that were contrary to the Law and the spirit of the Law.

If that is so, then I think it is more than a little bit odd that any of that is never mentioned in Isaiah chapter 1.

At the end of the book of Ezekiel, the prophet is given a complete description of the Third Temple, which will include sacrificial offerings.

There is a vision in Ezekiel of a temple but there is nothing to indicate that it is to be taken as a literal temple or as a "third" temple.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

Synagogues didn't exist at the time.

That is just absolutely ridiculous.
You must be completely brainwashed by the pretend Jews in your cult for you to believe that.
My advice to you is for you to stay away from these cult meetings and to read the New Testament at home, by yourself, and pray that you can have a correct understanding of what God is trying to tell you in this book.

Originally posted by rstrats


colbe,

re: "God was displeased with the Old Covenant Sabbath."

Assuming you're referring to the 4th commandment (3rd if you're RC) and the 7th day of the week observance, I'm not aware of any scripture that says that.


re: "It would be changed in the New Covenant...The Sabbath is now the
'Lord's Day.'"

Assuming that by "Lord's Day" you're referring to the first day of the week, I'm also not aware of anywhere in the NT that changes the observance from the 7th day of the week to the first day of the week. What do you have in mind?

rstrats,

You sound like you are Bible Alone, the Church follows the teachings of Christ and she canonized Scripture.
I shared in my last reply you read of God's displeasure with the Sabbath, in Isaiah 1:13.

A list of verses here for why Catholic Christians and many non-Catholic Christians gather on Sunday, the Lord's
Day to worship God. Come along, you can too.

Sunday Worship ~

Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church.

Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the "first day of the week." Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship.

1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday.

Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath."

2 Thess. 2:15 - we are to hold fast to apostolic tradition, whether it is oral or written. The 2,000 year-old tradition of the Church is that the apostles changed the Sabbath day of worship from Saturday to Sunday.

Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of "another day," which is Sunday, the new Sabbath. Sunday is the first day of the week and the first day of the new creation brought about by our Lord's resurrection, which was on Sunday.

Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday.

Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - whatever the Church binds on earth is bound in heaven. Since the resurrection, Mass has been principally celebrated on Sunday.


search - Scripture Catholic Sunday Worship

CookieMonster09,

re: " [17] And on the first day of the Azymes, the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Where wilt thou that we prepare for thee to eat the pasch?...Notes: [17] Azymes: Feast of the unleavened bread"


Was this on the 14th or the 15th of Nisan?