God's seventh-day Sabbath: Its not Sunday.

reply to post by colbe

. . . gather on Sunday, the Lord's Day

You still haven't produced a document tying together the two terms, Lord's Day and Sunday.
So producing quotes about the Lord's Day does not then support your theses that anyone celebrated on Sunday.
The Gospel says that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.
It never says that Sunday was ever made "Jesus' day".

That is just absolutely ridiculous. You must be completely brainwashed by the pretend Jews in your cult for you to believe that. My advice to you is for you to stay away from these cult meetings and to read the New Testament at home, by yourself, and pray that you can have a correct understanding of what God is trying to tell you in this book.

You are entirely missing the point, and clearly misunderstanding my statement. Let me clarify lest you continue to berate me with false charges of "cults" and other absurdities.

It would have been more clear if I had simply delineated that sacrificial offerings were only offered in the Temple, and not a synagogue.

Christ preached in the Second Temple. This was the main focus of Jewish worship for the Jews at the time -- at the site of the Temple. Sacrificial offerings were not and are not done in a synagogue, but only at the Temple in Jerusalem.

And, yes, while I would concede that there have been "houses of prayer" since even the time of Moses, the main center of Jewish worship at the time was in the Temple itself. This is where Christ preached, and where even as a small child, Christ would have visited during the Jewish festivals. As a child, this is the location where Christ debated the rabbis, who were astounded at Christ's knowledge of the Law - i.e., the Torah. All the Jewish people didn't flock to a house of prayer for the festivals, but to the Temple itself.

It was only when the Temple was destroyed that we see a shift from sacrificial offerings in the Temple to a much heavier emphasis on houses of prayer. The focus went from sacrificial offerings, to an even heavier emphasis on scholarship among the "rabbis" that emerged from the Pharisees of Christ's time.

With the Temple gone, sacrifices were no longer offered. The Jewish people instead turned to houses of prayer, which is neither a Temple, nor are their sacrifices offered in these same houses of prayer.

By the way, the discussion wasn't even about synagogues. It was about whether Christ was a rabbi, or "teacher of the Torah". This He most certainly was.

If that is so, then I think it is more than a little bit odd that any of that is never mentioned in Isaiah chapter 1.

The sacrificial offerings will be restored in the Third Temple era. Not only is this entirely biblical, but it is also clearly evident from modern day current events. Most of the liturgical items needed -- including the rather enormous gold Menorah, for example - have already been prepared by the Temple Institute in Jerusalem.

There is even a team of Jewish priests that are actively studying and learning the proper Temple rules so that they can be prepared for when the Third Temple is built, and move right in to perform the priestly functions once the Temple is built.

There is a vision in Ezekiel of a temple but there is nothing to indicate that it is to be taken as a literal temple or as a "third" temple.

There will most definitely be Third Temple, quite possibly in our lifetime. The groundwork is already being laid for the Third Temple to be rebuilt. Ezekiel's vision was not a far off daydream -- In fact, his writings are used as the basis for the very architectural drawings for the layout of the Third Temple.

One of the challenges, among others, is determining the proper definition of a cubit, for example. Some believe that this definition will be resolved when the Messiah returns, when He will clarify the meanings of some of these measurements so that the Temple can be built to the exact standards mentioned in Ezekiel's writings.

And, while you are free to believe as you choose, there is a huge movement within Israel to push for the Third Temple to be built, as well as vast financial resources devoted to this cause. It really is only a matter of time.

Was this on the 14th or the 15th of Nisan?

You tell me. I am not arguing dates. I am only suggesting that the Last Supper was tied to Passover.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

. . . whether Christ was a rabbi, or "teacher of the Torah". This He most certainly was.

"Was" . . according to what or who?
This is why I make comments about your cult, because that is where this sort of thinking comes from. You may argue that the so-called Messianic Judaism is a cult or not, but my point is that you don't get it from a normal church or just from reading the Bible. There are people out there who absolutely hate normal Christianity and do whatever they can to subvert it, one of the main ways by saying exactly what you are.

The sacrificial offerings will be restored in the Third Temple era.

There is no such thing as a "third Temple" except in cult rhetoric.
All the predictions of a new temple in the Old Testament were written before the building of the second temple or the temple of Herod.
If someone was to go ahead and build a temple in Jerusalem, it would not be because it was prophesied in the Bible but because some people wanted to do it themselves. God does not need to be involved. Some people will say that it was a miracle, but they would be just making it up without any proof other than deliberate distortion of historical events.

Ezekiel's vision was not a far off daydream -- In fact, his writings are used as the basis for the very architectural drawings for the layout of the Third Temple.

Ezekiel was written in Babylon before the second temple.

"Was" . . according to what or who? This is why I make comments about your cult, because that is where this sort of thinking comes from. You may argue that the so-called Messianic Judaism is a cult or not, but my point is that you don't get it from a normal church or just from reading the Bible. There are people out there who absolutely hate normal Christianity and do whatever they can to subvert it, one of the main ways by saying exactly what you are.

Christ taught from the Torah, of which there are numerous examples in the New Testament. A "rabbi" is a teacher of the Torah. Allegations of "cultism" do not help build a credible nor logical argument.

The only subversion taking place is within the Gentile Church which has stripped away much of the Jewish roots of Christ's teaching, and replaced it with grotesque pagan rituals, pagan liturgical rites, and pagan holidays - all with just a fake veneer of Christ's message. The true message of Christ is in Torah observance to the utmost, and Christ is the perfect example of this ideal.

There is no such thing as a "third Temple" except in cult rhetoric. All the predictions of a new temple in the Old Testament were written before the building of the second temple or the temple of Herod. If someone was to go ahead and build a temple in Jerusalem, it would not be because it was prophesied in the Bible but because some people wanted to do it themselves. God does not need to be involved. Some people will say that it was a miracle, but they would be just making it up without any proof other than deliberate distortion of historical events.

Ezekiel's vision is of the Third Temple in Jerusalem. In fact, the Third Temple is actually referred to by theologians and biblical scholars as "Ezekiel's Temple".

This is not "cult" rhetoric - This is traditional theological and biblical thought both historically and in our modern era.

Read the Book of Ezekiel yourself. The description of the Third Temple starts in Chapter 40 of Ezekiel, and is highly detailed, giving exceptionally detailed architectural descriptions. The descriptions are so detailed that many artists and architects are able to visually depict Ezekiel's Third Temple.

By the way, the description Ezekiel gives is not a replica of the First nor Second Temple, both of which were structurally different from what will be the Third Temple.

The Third Temple will exist during what some refer to as the "Great Tribulation". The prophet Daniel refers to this Third Temple when he mentions that "the prince who is to come" (i.e., the "Antichrist") will enter the Third Temple and stop the sacrificial offerings in the middle of the Great Tribulation (Daniel 9:27). The following 3 quotes are directly from the Douay-Rheims:

And he shall confirm the covenant with many, in one week: and in the half of the week the victim and the sacrifice shall fall: and there shall be in the temple the abomination of desolation: and the desolation shall continue even to the consummation, and to the end.

Even Paul mentions the Third Temple when Paul declares that the "man of lawlessness" will profane the temple by entering it and declaring himself to be G-d (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4):

Let no man deceive you by any means, for unless there come a revolt first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition, [4] Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshiped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.

The Third Temple is also mentioned in the Book of Revelation when John is told to measure The Third Temple (Revelation 11:1-2).

And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and it was said to me: Arise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar and them that adore therein. [2] But the court, which is without the temple, cast out, and measure it not: because it is given unto the Gentiles, and the holy city they shall tread under foot two and forty months:

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by colbe

 

. . . gather on Sunday, the Lord's Day

You still haven't produced a document tying together the two terms, Lord's Day and Sunday.
So producing quotes about the Lord's Day does not then support your theses that anyone celebrated on Sunday.
The Gospel says that Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath.
It never says that Sunday was ever made "Jesus' day".

edit on 23-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

They're quotes from your authority, Sola Scriptura. You deny the authority of the Church. I just posted
10 verses that show the first Christians gathered on Sunday to worship God, honoring Our Lord's Day of
resurrection.

The problem is non-Catholic Christians reject that we can know the teachings of Christ passed down from the Apostles. It has
been revealed. There is an oral revelation called Tradition besides the written Word of God. The Bible says not everything Jesus did or said is written in this Book. For sure, you accept some Tradition.

The "first day of the week" is Sunday and they met on the "Lord's Day." Why would John the Beloved say this late in his life, quoted in Revelation? He knew what he was speaking of...the Sabbath is now the Lord's Day.

People are so stubborn to reject the teachings of the faith, the want to make the New Covenant, the Old
Covenant. No. It is so lame too, history shows Catholics gathered for Mass and since the Reformation,
in 1517, the same, for their Sunday service.


p.s. My father's name was James, you both have a major patron saint, the Apostle James.


Apocalypse (Revelation) 1:10
I was in the spirit on the Lord' s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

reply to post by CookieMonster09


CookieMonster,

This discussion about a "third temple" and referencing it to be in Rev 11:1-2, I looked at the footnotes of a modern Catholic Bible translation. The New American Bible. The Douay-Rheims Bible didn't have footnotes for those two verses. That words "prototype of periods of trial." There is a period of trial coming up again, the 3 and 1/2 years or less of the Great Tribulation.

It is a misinterpretation of Scripture, believing a "third temple" is going to be built.

God bless you CM,


colbe

+ + +


* [11:1] The temple and altar symbolize the new Israel; see note on Rev 7:4–9. The worshipers represent Christians. The measuring of the temple (cf. Ez 40:3–42:20; 47:1–12; Zec 2:5–6) suggests that God will preserve the faithful remnant (cf. Is 4:2–3) who remain true to Christ (Rev 14:1–5).

* [11:2] The outer court: the Court of the Gentiles. Trample…forty-two months: the duration of the vicious persecution of the Jews by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (Dn 7:25; 12:7); this persecution of three and a half years (half of seven, counted as 1260 days in Rev 11:3; 12:6) became the prototype of periods of trial for God’s people; cf. Lk 4:25; Jas 5:17. The reference here is to the persecution by the Romans; cf. Introduction.

www.vatican.va...

reply to post by colbe

I just posted 10 verses that show the first Christians gathered on Sunday to worship God, honoring Our Lord's Day of resurrection.

But you didn't show anything that says that Sunday was ever made The Lord's Day.
People gathered for certain occasions, according to the verses you provided but they are not described as being on the first day as anyway connected to the resurrection.

The "first day of the week" is Sunday and they met on the "Lord's Day."

That is you saying it was on The Lord's Day. In the verses, it just says the first day of the week.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

Christ taught from the Torah, of which there are numerous examples in the New Testament.

There is a story in the gospels where Jesus went into the synagogue and got up to read from the scroll of the Prophets, which is not the Torah.
Even given that, he obviously was not actually reading from it verbatim because if you look for what he was quoting, it comes from different books and different places in those books, something that you couldn't do with an actual physical scroll.

The only subversion taking place is within the Gentile Church which has stripped away much of the Jewish roots of Christ's teaching, and replaced it with grotesque pagan rituals, pagan liturgical rites, and pagan holidays - all with just a fake veneer of Christ's message. The true message of Christ is in Torah observance to the utmost, and Christ is the perfect example of this ideal.

That is a lot of so-called Messianic Judaism rhetoric.
There may be some integration of local customs into Christian worship especially with Catholicism, but I don't know what has been "stripped away" from Jesus' teachings, as you put it. And what "grotesque pagan rituals" are you talking about? I would say that what you apparently want, killing goats and sheep and bulls on a bloody altar, sounds like it would fit that description pretty well.
Saying that Jesus is the living Torah is the pinnacle of this cult that you have been taken in by, which is not Christian at all, and is the attempt by the proponents of this cult to have a way of describing Jesus that is acceptable to the rabbinical council.
What is really at the core of this philosophy is the denial of Jesus altogether by having him sort of dissolved in this overwhelming entity of written words and the ignoring of the significance of the person, Jesus, and his claim of divinity to the extent of being above the written law and having the ability to create a new law and a new covenant.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

Ezekiel's vision is of the Third Temple in Jerusalem. In fact, the Third Temple is actually referred to by theologians and biblical scholars as "Ezekiel's Temple".

You just think that it is because your cult tells you that it is.
Ezekiel is all allegory and it says so right in the book itself, with things like instructing him to construct models and how they represent certain things.
Ezekiel was written from Babylon during the Babylonian captivity while the Jerusalem temple lay in ruins, so Ezekiel is describing an allegorical idealised vision of a future where everything is restored and made better. There are a lot of indications built into it to make anyone reading it that it is not meant to be understood literally.

This is not "cult" rhetoric - This is traditional theological and biblical thought both historically and in our modern era.

I would like to see the documentation on that. My guess is that there is none and you are just taking the word of your cult leader that it is true.
Now the "modern" part I can buy, since you have this agent of disinformation, John Nelson Darby, who starting around 1800, promoted an apocalyptic interpretation that utilized Ezekiel extensively to support the scheme.

The descriptions are so detailed that many artists and architects are able to visually depict Ezekiel's Third Temple.

It's never going to happen. You already said earlier that experts were studying how they can reproduce the former temple services.

The Third Temple will exist during what some refer to as the "Great Tribulation". The prophet Daniel refers to this Third Temple when he mentions that "the prince who is to come" (i.e., the "Antichrist") will enter the Third Temple and stop the sacrificial offerings in the middle of the Great Tribulation (Daniel 9:27).

All of those prophecies were fulfilled when the Jerusalem temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

Even Paul mentions the Third Temple when Paul declares that the "man of lawlessness" will profane the temple by entering it and declaring himself to be G-d (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4):

For one, I don't think that Paul wrote 2 Thess. but that it was a later forgery after Paul had died or was otherwise left out of recorded Christian history.
Second, it does not specify a particular temple and could have been talking about the temple in Rome and one of the various evil type emperors that they had.

The Third Temple is also mentioned in the Book of Revelation when John is told to measure The Third Temple (Revelation 11:1-2).

A "heavenly" temple used as an allegorical device, not to be taken literally.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
reply to post by colbe

 

I just posted 10 verses that show the first Christians gathered on Sunday to worship God, honoring Our Lord's Day of resurrection.

But you didn't show anything that says that Sunday was ever made The Lord's Day.
People gathered for certain occasions, according to the verses you provided but they are not described as being on the first day as anyway connected to the resurrection.

The "first day of the week" is Sunday and they met on the "Lord's Day."

That is you saying it was on The Lord's Day. In the verses, it just says the first day of the week.

edit on 24-8-2013 by jmdewey60 because: (no reason given)

Your "people gathered for certain occasions" is vague, obscure for a reason. Doesn't change the facts, the Truth.

Church means assemble or assembly, it's been going on for 2000 years, the first Christians, Catholics go to Church on Sunday, the first day of the week to worship God in the greatest form of worship, the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Those who revolted from the faith in the 16th century, they too, many, many Protestant sects follow in their assembling on Sunday in their particular Church for a preacher's sermon and Scripture reading.

To sit at home reading your Bible on Sunday is not enough, God is worthy of our worship. He commands us to give Him one day, in the New Covenant, it is Sunday. If your selling the Old Testament, Jesus followed by example, by habit, He went to worship with others at the Temple.

Assembling to worship God in the New Covenant on Sunday is part of keeping God's Commandment. Why bother with the rejection of the fact, the Sabbath is now called the Lord's Day. Jesus came to make
things new. He has and He has revealed how jd.


God bless you,

The Church celebrates the day of Christ’s Resurrection on the ‘eighth day,’ Sunday, which is rightly called the Lord’s Day" (CCC 2191).

The early Church did not move the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday. Instead "The Sabbath, which represented the completion of the first creation, has been replaced by Sunday, which recalls the new creation inaugurated by the Resurrection of Christ" (Catechism of the Catholic Church # 2190). Sunday is the day Catholics are bound to keep, not Saturday.

We see evidence of this in Scripture:

On the first day of the week when we gathered to break bread, Paul spoke to them because he was going to leave on the next day, and he kept on speaking until midnight (Acts 20:7).
On the first day of the week each of you should set aside and save whatever one can afford, so that collections will not be going on when I come (1 Cor. 16:2).
Let no one, then, pass judgment on you in matters of food and drink or with regard to a festival or new moon or Sabbath (Col. 2:16). ...

www.catholic.com...

reply to post by colbe

Assembling to worship God in the New Covenant on Sunday is part of keeping God's Commandment.

That only works as long as you believe that "God's Law" is determined by human councils.
Like you said, "the truth" is a lot of Christians think that Sunday is the Lord's Day, but it is only because they haven't had anyone tell them the real truth, which is that this belief is only based on half-truths maintained by people interested in their own status quo based on human authority.
True faithfulness to God overlooks human pretenders to being worthy of worship.

reply to post by colbe

The early Church did not move the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.

If you consider the Fifth Century church councils as "the early Church".
Like I said in an earlier post, the church in its ecumenacal councils created an anti-sabbath, so Sunday worship in no way satisfies the demands of the Ten Commandments unless you take the Catholic position that one day is as good as another as long as you recognize one day, which of course logically takes away Sunday's special position, unless you accept human authority over God's.

colbe,

re: "Isaiah 1:13 - God begins to reveal His displeasure with the Sabbath.

Isaiah 1:10–15 is addressing the hypocrisy of insincere worship. Verse 13 does not mean that the Lord had changed His mind about His requirement of observing the Sabbath. The condemnation here is of the hypocritical fulfillment of the Mosaic offerings and feasts. Israel misused these religious activities because they fulfilled only the outward requirements and did not worship with full purpose of heart. To refer to the people of Israel as Sodom and Gomorrah ( v. 10 ) vividly depicts how deeply the people had sunk into sin and depravity. Later, Isaiah would write: "Blessed is the man who keeps...from defiling the Sabbath..." (Isaiah 56:2). And "To the eunuchs who keep My Sabbaths, and choose what pleases Me, and hold fast my covenant, even to them I will give in My house and within My walls a place and a name..." (Isaiah 56:4-5). And further: "Also...everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, and holds fast My covenant - even them I will bring to My holy mountain, and make them joyful in My house of prayer. Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on My altar..." (Isaiah 56:6-7. And then: "If you turn away your foot from doing your pleasure on My holy day, and call the Sabbath a delight , the holy day of the Lord honorable, and shall honor Him, not doing your own ways, nor finding your own pleasure, nor speaking your own words, then you shall delight yourself in the Lord..." (Isaiah 58:13-14).



re: " Matt. 28:1; Mark 16:2,9; John 20:1,19- the Gospel writers purposely reveal Jesus' resurrection and appearances were on Sunday. This is because Sunday had now become the most important day in the life of the Church."

Nowhere does scripture say that. As I said earlier, there are only 2 times in scripture that has anyone getting together on the first day of the week, and in neither instance is anything said about observing the first day as a day of rest and worship or as a recognition of the resurrection.



re: "Acts 20:7 - this text shows the apostolic tradition of gathering together to celebrate the Eucharist on Sunday, the 'first day of the week'".

This was addressed earlier. And even if "breaking bread" was referring to holy communion - and there is no reason to believe that it was - how can a one time event be considered a tradition?



re: "Luke documents the principle worship was on Sunday because this was one of the departures from the Jewish form of worship."

Nowhere does Luke document such a principle, much less say anything about a departure from the Jewish form of worship with regard to the Sabbath.




re: " 1 Cor. 16:2 - Paul instructs the Corinthians to make contributions to the churches "on the first day of the week," which is Sunday. This is because the primary day of Christian worship is Sunday."

This was also addressed earlier.



re: " Col. 2:16-17 - Paul teaches that the Sabbath was only a shadow of what was fulfilled in Christ, and says "let no one pass judgment any more over a Sabbath." "

How have you been able to rule out that Paul wasn't simply telling the Colossians that they should not let anyone - other than the body of Christ, which is the church - criticize them for HOW they were observing the things mentioned in verse 16?

Paul does NOT say "the substance belongs to Christ"; this is a mis-translation and misinterpretation of the Greek. Paul wrote "but the body of Christ" meaning the church. That is, the church is to be doing the judging not the outside critics who were trying to force their ascetic values onto the church.

Also, the shadow reference is with regard to things that ARE to come - not to things that had already come at the time of Paul's writing.




re: "Heb. 4:8-9 - regarding the day of rest, if Joshua had given rest, God would not later speak of 'another day,' which is Sunday, the new Sabbath."

What is there in scripture that allows you to think that "another day" has to be referring to a calendar day of the week? And what translation/version are you using that has the phrase: "regarding the day of rest"?



re: " Heb. 7:12 - when there is a change in the priesthood, there is a change in the law as well. Because we have a new Priest and a new sacrifice, we also have a new day of worship, which is Sunday."

Hebrews 7:12 says nothing about a change of worship from the seventh day to the first day.




re: "Rev 1:10 - John specifically points out that he witnesses the heavenly Eucharistic liturgy on Sunday, the Lord's day, the new day of rest in Christ."

As was pointed out earlier, nowhere in the verse does it identify the first day of the week as the Lord's Day.

reply to post by rstrats


Hi rstrats, I hope you have a quiet and prayerful Sunday, the Lord's Day.

Sorry, Protestantism broke away from the faith (pride) in 1517, actually October 31, 1517, a telling date. Sola Scriptura came from Martin Luther's head not God.

God revealed who He is orally and not all of God's revelation is written down, written in the Bible, a Catholic book. The oral is Tradition and the written is Holy Scripture. Sola Scriptura is a heresy. Put it together friend. Better, ask Our Lord in prayer if what I just said is true.

You actually believe the oral (tradition), some of it.

We can know orally since it was passed down by the Apostles and later, partly not all, shared in Scripture with John's words, the Sabbath has been changed to Sunday and is now referred to as the Lord's Day to honor our Savior.

Fact, the world see most of all of Christianity so WHY for Heaven's sake do Catholic and non-Catholic Christians go to Mass or their Church Service on Sunday? Somebody better set them straight. Tee hee....

If you're into a recent sect of Protestantism, Messianic Judaism or one of their break aways, lose it. No offense, I'll tell you why. This is the New Covenant. Jesus revealed new things about who He is and the divine plan.
Messianic Judaism is a lot of Protestantism and a little Old Covenant. But, but, Protestantism is heresy and
this is the New Covenant!

love,

colbe

This discussion about a "third temple" and referencing it to be in Rev 11:1-2, I looked at the footnotes of a modern Catholic Bible translation. The New American Bible. The Douay-Rheims Bible didn't have footnotes for those two verses. That words "prototype of periods of trial." There is a period of trial coming up again, the 3 and 1/2 years or less of the Great Tribulation. It is a misinterpretation of Scripture, believing a "third temple" is going to be built.

....That is, the same Catholic Church that celebrates Sunday instead of Saturday as the Sabbath in direct contravention against the Ten Commandments, engages in statue/idol worship contrary to the First Commandment, worships Mother Mary, and.... Oh, never mind. We can agree to disagree.

There will be a Third Temple built. It is written into Scripture as I have already demonstrated, and the steps necessary to rebuild the Third Temple have already been taken. It could very well happen in our lifetime.

Of course the Catholic Church would deny Holy Writ. They have done so for hundreds of years. Why would that be so surprising?

There is a story in the gospels where Jesus went into the synagogue and got up to read from the scroll of the Prophets, which is not the Torah.

In the Saturday morning "Shabbat" prayer service, both texts are read - the Torah and the Tanakh ("Old Testament"). The Torah is and always has been the primary text of the Jewish people.

Christ came to renew the Torah writ large into the hearts of the lost sheep of Israel.

There may be some integration of local customs into Christian worship especially with Catholicism, but I don't know what has been "stripped away" from Jesus' teachings, as you put it.

How about the subject of this thread - Hijacking the Sabbath and moving it to Sunday? Duping millions of Christians into believing that Sunday is the Sabbath? How's that for starters?

How about stripping away the kosher laws, which have been proven to be highly effective from a health standpoint, and not following them can lead to disease and eventual early death? Yes, it is more important that what comes from our heart matters more that what we eat - agreed - but I don't believe that Christ was advocating eating pork rinds and other unhealthy foods.

Christ was a hard core Torah observant Jew. He was heavy into the Torah, and preached the Torah. Christians, through misguided Gentile perversions of Holy Writ, have practically abolished Torah observance. even though this is the very basis for Christ's teachings.

And what "grotesque pagan rituals" are you talking about?

Idolatry for one. Replacing worship of G-d with the worship of intercessors, including Mary, Joseph, saints ad nauseum. Statues. The Rosary. Scapulars. A Sabbath on a Sunday, not a Saturday. I can give you plenty more, if needed, all of which contravene Holy Writ.

Saying that Jesus is the living Torah is the pinnacle of this cult that you have been taken in by, which is not Christian at all, and is the attempt by the proponents of this cult to have a way of describing Jesus that is acceptable to the rabbinical council.

Nonsense. At the end of every Latin Rite Mass, Catholics recite the Book of John 1:14:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

What was "the Word"? The Law - which is the Torah. Back when Christ lived, there was no New Testament. Torah was primary and central to daily life in Christ's day. Christ is the Word - Torah - made flesh.

Again, cultic references are nonsense. I do not prescribe to a cult, but it sounds like you do. All of my statements have been backed by Holy Writ, to which you have no evidence to the contrary. I know -- It must be hard to argue against G-d's word.

.....and having the ability to create a new law and a new covenant.

Renewed law, and a renewed covenant. As I stated earlier, G-d doesn't break promises. His covenants that He made are everlasting. Christ came to renew the covenant, and renew the Torah. It is the Gentile Church that have perverted Christ's teachings. The same Christ who stated that not one "jot or tittle" would pass from the Law until heaven and Earth should pass.

You just think that it is because your cult tells you that it is. Ezekiel is all allegory and it says so right in the book itself, with things like instructing him to construct models and how they represent certain things. Ezekiel was written from Babylon during the Babylonian captivity while the Jerusalem temple lay in ruins, so Ezekiel is describing an allegorical idealised vision of a future where everything is restored and made better. There are a lot of indications built into it to make anyone reading it that it is not meant to be understood literally.

More "cult" accusations. Yawn. Your arguments aren't very convincing.

Why is it that the Orthodox Jews and the Muslims are awaiting the arrival of the Messiah to rebuild the Third Temple, then? Why are their massive preparations underway in Jerusalem to rebuild the Temple? Why have the Jews built a replica of the Menorah, which cost north of $3MM to recreate? The Temple Institute in Jerusalem is no joke. They are dead serious that the Third Temple will be rebuilt, just as it is described in Holy Writ.

Are you even living on the same planet? Prophecy is being fulfilled right before our very eyes. This is not allegory - It is written into Holy Writ repeatedly that a Third Temple will be rebuilt. We are living witnesses to prophecy, and will likely see the Third Temple be rebuilt in our lifetimes.

It's never going to happen. You already said earlier that experts were studying how they can reproduce the former temple services.

It's happening already. It's not a matter of "if", but a matter of "when". The groundwork and the plans have already been arranged to rebuild the Third Temple.

All of those prophecies were fulfilled when the Jerusalem temple was destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD.

No. The number "3" is repeatedly utilized throughout the Bible for a reason. It has enormous significance. And, there is plenty of biblical and rabbinical evidence to support the rebuilding of a Third Temple, despite your baseless opinions to the contrary.

Second, it does not specify a particular temple and could have been talking about the temple in Rome and one of the various evil type emperors that they had.

No, when the Bible refers to the Temple, it refers to the Temple in Jerusalem, not in Rome. Nice try. We must not be reading the same book.

A "heavenly" temple used as an allegorical device, not to be taken literally.

Uh, no. There have already been two literal Temples in Jerusalem already. A Third will be here soon enough. See above.

reply to post by Lee78



Holy crap, is this thread still going? Anyway, first there is more than one type of Sabbath, but the 7th day Sabbath you're referring to is and always was Saturday. But that Sabbath was only given to the Israelites along with many of the other 613 laws in the OT.

They were only to be followed by the Israelites as God wanted to make them his chosen holy people and different than any other people. Everyone else, were called Gentiles and only had seven laws to follow. The Seven Laws of Noah or the Noahide Laws as they are called are as follows.

The prohibition of Idolatry.
The prohibition of Murder.
The prohibition of Theft.
The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
The prohibition of Blasphemy.
The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

Seven Laws of Noah

These are the only laws of the OT a Gentile had to follow to be right with God and assured a place in the afterlife. Some would refer to these as the moral laws that everyone has to follow.

The extra ritual laws and dietary laws in the OT for the Israelites were only supposed to be followed by the Israelites. One of those laws was observing the Sabbath. Gentiles were NOT SUPPOSED to observe the Sabbath.

Many Israelite writings, Jews, Rabbis, and so forth have even called for the death of any Gentile that ritually observes the Sabbath or tries to follow other parts of the OT law because the Sabbath and the ritual laws ARE NOT FOR THEM. It and the other ritual OT laws like circumcision were ONLY FOR Israelites to make them special.

But the Sabbath was only a shadow of things to come. Those things to come were Jesus and the New Covenant that both Jews and Gentiles could take place in. They were all going to be one happy family now right?

There's just one problem. The OT law and God's law DOESN'T CHANGE. It CAN'T CHANGE. Therefore Gentiles still aren't allowed to ritually observe the Sabbath, get circumcised and so forth. So, the early church leaders had a problem? What do we do now?

Well the early church leaders decided that Gentiles didn't have to convert to Judaism to take place in the NT Covenant. Which is correct. They're not supposed to observe the Sabbath, they're not supposed to get circumcised. They don't have dietary restrictions. They can eat whatever they want.

They ONLY have to follow to the NT law. Because there is no Jew or Gentile under the OT law so nobody under the NT has to follow the Jewish only parts of the law. But there's a problem. If there's no Jews how do we observe the Sabbath? Only Jews are supposed to do so?

Simple, we worship on Sunday instead, the Lord's Day. Now we don't have to kill any Gentiles for falsely worshiping on the Sabbath when only the Jewish people are supposed to be doing that.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

There will be a Third Temple built. It is written into Scripture as I have already demonstrated, and the steps necessary to rebuild the Third Temple have already been taken. It could very well happen in our lifetime

The ones in the Bible are metaphorical "heavenly" temples.
Physical, man-made temples on the ground cannot fulfill those predictions.

In the Saturday morning "Shabbat" prayer service, both texts are read - the Torah and the Tanakh ("Old Testament"). The Torah is and always has been the primary text of the Jewish people.

Synagogue tradition would allow a guest to read the Prophets scroll, while the rabbi would read the Torah.

Christ came to renew the Torah writ large into the hearts of the lost sheep of Israel.

Maybe if you have a very broad definition for Torah, where it can mean any kind of law. If you mean the Old Testament Law of Moses, then no, there is no support for that theory in the Bible.

How about the subject of this thread - Hijacking the Sabbath and moving it to Sunday? Duping millions of Christians into believing that Sunday is the Sabbath? How's that for starters?

I think that the idea that Sunday was somehow a "Christian Sabbath" came from the Puritans. What did Jesus teach about the sabbath? That man was not made for the Sabbath, but the Sabbath was made for man. Why men would need a Sabbath is to have a day off once a week, something that the Catholic Church provided the people with.

How about stripping away the kosher laws . . .

Jesus said, it is not what goes into a man's mouth that defiles him, it is what comes out of his mouth.

Christ was a hard core Torah observant Jew. He was heavy into the Torah, and preached the Torah. Christians, through misguided Gentile perversions of Holy Writ, have practically abolished Torah observance. even though this is the very basis for Christ's teachings.

Jesus understood the law better than Moses because he was God. Jesus did not have to read the Torah to know the Law, but he read it in order to be able to criticize it for its faults. What was the young Jesus asking the doctors of the Law in the temple? Questions about inconsistencies that he found in the Torah.

Idolatry for one. Replacing worship of G-d with the worship of intercessors, including Mary, Joseph, saints ad nauseam. Statues. The Rosary. Scapulars.

It actually says those things in the gospels, like, "Hail Mary, full of grace." You may not like that but the Bible supports those things including the saints.

What was "the Word"? The Law - which is the Torah.

"Logos" is the Greek word in John 1 that usually gets translated as "word". Logos in the Greek Old Testament is used 122 times to mean prophecy. I am not aware of it being used to mean the law.
That translation that you quoted of John 1:14 I don't think is right, but a deliberate mistranslation that was done a long time ago to support the trinity. I've studied the issue quite extensively (a still ongoing study for me) and see it as meaning the spirit of prophecy entered into them, whoever "them" is, apparently the writer of the gospel, along with the other disciples and John the Baptist, as Jesus was filled with it too, as was being described in this section of the gospel (his baptism).

Back when Christ lived, there was no New Testament. Torah was primary and central to daily life.

I think that the section under discussion here, in John 1, mentions the role of the prophets when it says the light was shone into the world.

Again, cultic references are nonsense. I do not prescribe to a cult, but it sounds like you do. All of my statements have been backed by Holy Writ, to which you have no evidence to the contrary. I know -- It must be hard to argue against G-d's word.

You come up with stuff that fits cult teaching perfectly and are not things someone would come up with on their own by just reading the Bible.

reply to post by CookieMonster09

Renewed law, and a renewed covenant.

That is not the way it worked out and you can't blame the Catholics because it is what the Bible says, the impediment that was preventing people from coming together was removed, that is what the New Testament says.

As I stated earlier, G-d doesn't break promises.

Plans get changed all the time according to the Bible, so you are just making up a rule to apply exclusively to the things that you want to preserve as an everlasting tradition.

His covenants that He made are everlasting.

There was no such thing mentioned in the Bible because the language does not support the concept. It literally says "for the age", which the NT tells us ended at the cross.

Christ came to renew the covenant, and renew the Torah. It is the Gentile Church that have perverted Christ's teachings.

Only if you consider the NT a complete lie, and if so, there is no Jesus to be "perverted".

The same Christ who stated that not one "jot or tittle" would pass from the Law until heaven and Earth should pass.

He was talking about his law, the fundamental law of God, according to his interpretation.