God's seventh-day Sabbath: Its not Sunday.

Originally posted by MysticPearl

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Sparky63
The Jews "day" ran from sunset to sunset. The 7th day of the week for them was sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday. However this is a moot point if you are a Christian because of the following scriptures:

Rom. 10:4: “Christ is the end of the Law, so that everyone exercising faith may have righteousness.”

Sabbath keeping was a part of that Law. God used Christ to bring that Law to its end. Our having a righteous standing with God depends on faith in Christ, not on keeping a weekly sabbath.

Col. 2:13-16: “[God] kindly forgave us all our trespasses and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us . . . Therefore let no man judge you in eating and drinking or in respect of a festival or of an observance of the new moon or of a sabbath.”

It seems clear that an approved standing with God no longer requires observance of the sabbath requirement given to Israel.

edit on 12/29/2011 by Sparky63 because: formatted post

No, no, don't use those verses, the Sabbath consecration happened before the law. Romans 14 is the chapter you want to source for Christians under the new covenant.

If you truly believe in the Sabbath, then you truly would need to enforce all laws surrounding it from the bible, if you're actually a good follower of the bible.

My neighbor worked at his family owned antique store during what would be considered the Sabbath, last week. Do you want his address to come stone him to death? If not, you're cherry picking what you do and do not follow from your fairy tale book.

Why did you quote me? What you replied with has absolutely nothing to do with what I said.

Originally posted by Lee78

Originally posted by ovumcranium
It is a conspiracy in a way.

Ellen White (SDA) claimed the pope (Syvester I) changed the day from Saturday to Sunday, (from a vision of hers) and stated that those who keep the Pope's Sabbath will receive the Mark of the Beast. See details from Seventh Day Adventist sites.

BUT

It has been challenged that no one can find documented proof of this claim (thus claiming White was a false prophet). There is a lot of information and history out there, interesting reading.

Other information claim the apostles changed the date because Sunday was the day Jesus rose.

The Bible does prophesy that Satan would try to change dates and times - one reason why so many want to know if it was properly changed and what that can mean...

I am taking on board all of which you and others have said and are saying. I am searching for the truth and i WILL find it.I believe there is a conspiracy here, i really do. Like i said earlier and in a previous thread i havent always believed and over the last 4-5 years have started to see things from a different perspective.
In what you stated above i believe that what you say might be the case, at the moment though i am going to read through all of the replies because at the moment i have a few things that are playing on my mind with this.

1 I have always believed that the Sabbath day was a Sunday......for obvious reasons. Churches attended on Sundays, no working or should i say most places closed on Sundays its just what i was led to believe. I am not the only one surely?

2 Time yes TIME Now i am well aware that God created night and day, and also the seasons but when and where does it say God added hours, minutes and seconds?

Yes i am probably being aburd here but i think that TIME holds the key in relation to revealing the truth.

Someone posted earlier that mentions that time was altered yearly (spring forward +1, and Autumn -1 Fall) to keep seasons in check?

Without time they would be in check anyway....wouldnt they?

3 Same thing as above, Leap Years, why was this also implemented, when without time as in clock time, everything would run true anyway. Without the Leap Years what would the date actually be today? Most importantly how would this affect the prophecies and other things like the Mayan calendar for instance, because the way i see it, somewhere along the line man has believed they are more powerful than God and have decided to play his part. Where in other religious texts does it take into account Leap Years

Now you may think that these are off topic but think about what i am saying here, its all connected and could actually reveal a massive conspiracy, the question is though by WHO?

Has anyone got any answers to this or do you think that it is a legitimate statement regarding time in relation to the above?

Originally posted by colbe

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by colbe

 

No, I'm not sure if you've ever studied Systematic Theology or not, but "Justification" and "Sanctification" are two different things. Justification means simply we are declared righteous. We aren't righteous of course, but on Christ's merits we are declared righteous. Sanctification makes us righteous, and that's a lifelong process of the Holy Spirit. The "renewing of the mind" is a continual thing, it's in the present tense, passive voice in the Greek. Our lives should be ones defined by prayer and repentance. Martin Luther said this, that a Christian's life should be one of repentance.

Yes, they have two different meanings just like "redemption" and "justification" mean two different things.

Okay, I'm not even going to get into the Greek, it's not even necessary. "Redemption" is Christ's work for us. "Justification" is like a verdict in a trial.

Look at all those verses, our Justification is not a given. A one time
event friend.

That's not at all what Paul says, especially in Hebrews. He was exhorting the converted Christians to press on to spiritual maturity instead of going back to Judaism to escape persecution from the Jewish authorities. He said basically: "Go ahead if you want to, but if you sin again there remains no other sacrifice for your sins." The system of sacrifice under the Mosaic Law was completed with Christ.

If our justification isn't a given in Christ or somehow He needs us to do something it no longer is grace, we'd merit it then, we'd have occasion to boast. And finally, that would imply that Christ's sacrifice on our behalf wasn't all-sufficient.

The terrible heresies, like you are saved by a one time
event called the "altar call."

I was under the impression it was the Holy Spirit who regenerates our hearts to believe the gospel. And again, going back to John 6, Christ says that we who have faith "already hath eternal life." The minute you first believe the gospel is the minute you are justified before God.

And OSAS.

Wait, what happened to Romans 8? Where did that chapter go? And real quickly, how many of your sins were yet future when Christ hung on that Roman cross?

Answer: "ALL OF THEM WERE" Not just the sins you did two years ago, but the sin you'll stumble at two weeks from next Tuesday as well. ALL your sins were yet future when He died for them. That's precisely why He and He alone gets the glory for saving (justifying) you.

I wish you would look at those verses. Share with me, after reading
them, if you still believe Salvation is a free gift and a one time event. That goes against Scripture. I shared in CAPs, only God's grace is a free
gift.

Are you aware that in scripture "salvation" is spoken of in 3 tenses? Past, present, and future? In Systematic Theology it's commonly referred to as the "3 P's of Salvation":

Past tense: "Justification" - We have been "saved" from the Penalty of sin, Hell.
Present tense: "Sanctification" - We are "saved" from the Power of sin over our lives.
Future tense: "Glorification" - We will be "saved" from the Presence of sin in our flesh when we are given glorified bodies at the resurrection.

You mean well I can clearly see that, but you've got a fuzzy, mix-mash understanding of "saved". Depending on the subject, and the context, the same English term is used to describe 3 different words in the Greek. Much like the English word "love", there are 5 Greek words translated as "love" in English.

What can we do? We are severely handicapped by a ridiculously lazy language compared to the Greek and Hebrew.

I would like to share, once more, it is not true that our Justification is a one time event (OSAS heresy) or that Salvation is a "free" gift. Both are wrong.

We can see it's not only explained by Paul, look at the Old Testament:

Look at David ~

1 Sam. 13:14 - David is justified here, as God describes him as “a man after his own heart.” No one in Scripture is described like this. Acts 13:22 confirms David’s justification before God.

1 Sam. 16:13 – David is also justified here. “The Spirit of the Lord came mightily upon David from that day forward.”

1 Sam. 17:37-54 – David is further justified here, as he responds to God’s grace and God delivers him from the hand of Goliath the Philistine.

2 Sam. 6:9,14 – David is further justified here, as he expresses a fear for the Lord in the presence of His ark, and dances before the ark of the Lord with all his might.

2 Sam. 12:7-15 - however, after David’s on-going justification before God, David falls out of justification by committing adultery with Bathsheba and slaying Uriah the Hittite. David still had faith in God, but he lost his justification because of his evil works.

Psalm 32:1-2; Rom. 4:7-8; cf. 51:2,7-10,17 – David repents of his sin and writes these beautiful psalms about God’s mercy and forgiveness. Of himself, he writes, “Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered up.” David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

more verses to show our Justification is not a one time event....

SALVATION: PAST (finished), PRESENT (unfinished) AND FUTURE (unfinished)
Conversion and Justification (Present Tense Salvation) is a process of deliverance from both venial or mortal sin and their penalties. The conversion or justification experience never applies the atonement of Christ to any future sin! See Ezekiel 3:20,21.

Conversion and Justification should be a Continuing Event always Dealing with Any New Sins Committed. James 2:21-23 Abraham is "Justified" by faith and obedience when offering Isaac (v.21). He had long before been justified ("counted righteous") when by faith he obeyed God and left Ur (v.23 cf Gen 15:6,7).

Luke 22:32 Jesus told Peter at the Last Supper, he would have to be "converted." He had been converted when he first obeyed the call of Christ (Mt 4:18-20) and he certainly had many other conversions during his 3 years with Jesus.

I Cor 15:1.2 You are "saved" [in a continuing and increasing sense] "if" you keep the Gospel always in mind.

Phil 2:12 "Work out your own salvation [deliverance from sin] with fear and trembling."

I Peter 1:9 "Receiving [continually] the end of your faith even the salvation of your souls."

Justification Experienced Only Through Faith and Obedience James 2:14-26 "Faith, if it hath not works is dead, being alone"(v. 17). "The devils also believe and tremble"(v. 19). "[As in Abraham's case] by works was faith made perfect'(v.22). "As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead"(v.26).

John 15:1-10 "1 am the true Vine.... If a man abide not in Me, he is cast forth as a branch and ... burned. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in My love."

Salvation is not a FREE gift. Our Justification is not a one time even.

Here are two verses from Revelation to prove both:

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Originally posted by colbe

I would like to share, once more, it is not true that our Justification is a one time event (OSAS heresy) or that Salvation is a "free" gift. Both are wrong.

You make Jesus a liar when you say that, do you realize this? He said "No man can come to me unless my Father first draw that man", then says "Anyone who calls upon me I will in no wise cast out." He also said that we who believe in Him "already have eternal life". Not hopefully sometime in the future, He said we already posses it.

Did you hastily pass over my question? How many of your sins were yet future when Christ hung on the cross? Next Q: How can we pay for sins that Christ has already died for?

David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

How ridiculously maddening your Theology is. What do you do? Do you hope and pray that your good days cancel out your bad days? Do you keep a list of sins and good works, always making sure the good works list is longer than the list of sins??

Check out Romans 14, Paul argues that people meticulously trying to keep the law and all the ordinances are spiritually "weak"er than the Christian who realizes his freedom in Christ. That's why he says that under grace all things are lawful, but not all are expedient. When exercising our freedom in Christ we should never be an offense to another brother who is still convinced in his mind that the thing is bad. If we do that we sin. Whatever is not done out of faith is sin.

You can lose your reward based on your faithfulness, not your salvation. All your works can be burnt up, yet you yourself shall still be saved. In the Prodigal Son parable the wayward son lost his inheritance, but his sonship was never lost.

Every Christian needs a book of Systematic Theology, I don't think you have one, I really suggest you investing the money to get one. I think my last one was like 30 dollars.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by colbe

I would like to share, once more, it is not true that our Justification is a one time event (OSAS heresy) or that Salvation is a "free" gift. Both are wrong.

You make Jesus a liar when you say that, do you realize this? He said "No man can come to me unless my Father first draw that man", then says "Anyone who calls upon me I will in no wise cast out." He also said that we who believe in Him "already have eternal life". Not hopefully sometime in the future, He said we already posses it.

Did you hastily pass over my question? How many of your sins were yet future when Christ hung on the cross? Next Q: How can we pay for sins that Christ has already died for?

David is re-justified before God. This proves that we can be justified before God, then lose our justification, and then be re-justified through repentance and reconciliation with God.

How ridiculously maddening your Theology is. What do you do? Do you hope and pray that your good days cancel out your bad days? Do you keep a list of sins and good works, always making sure the good works list is longer than the list of sins??

Check out Romans 14, Paul argues that people meticulously trying to keep the law and all the ordinances are spiritually "weak"er than the Christian who realizes his freedom in Christ. That's why he says that under grace all things are lawful, but not all are expedient. When exercising our freedom in Christ we should never be an offense to another brother who is still convinced in his mind that the thing is bad. If we do that we sin. Whatever is not done out of faith is sin.

You can lose your reward based on your faithfulness, not your salvation. All your works can be burnt up, yet you yourself shall still be saved. In the Prodigal Son parable the wayward son lost his inheritance, but his sonship was never lost.

Every Christian needs a book of Systematic Theology, I don't think you have one, I really suggest you investing the money to get one. I think my last one was like 30 dollars.

"You can lose your reward based on your faithfulness, not your salvation."[

NoTurTypical,

Look at what you just said, I am trying to help you. You replaced the
word "salvation" with the word "reward."

Our justification (Salvation) is our eternal "reward." Stick the word we
are talking about "salvation or justification" in there. And what do you have...

"You can lose your salvation based on your faithfulness"....

This is correct. If you sin gravely and don't repent before you die, you
can lose your salvation. If David had not repented and confessed His
grave sins, his lack of "faithfulness" he would of lost his salvation.


And you have to see the difference between the meaning of redemption and salvation (Justification).

Jesus opened Heaven by His suffering death on the cross, that is our
redemption. Our salvation...our justification is how we cooperate with
God's grace in the choices we make life long to attain Heaven.

Salvation is not a free gift. You gotta quit preaching that friend.

The heresy of saying Jesus did all on the Cross, He covers all our
sins is nonsense. Why do you think Our Lord established Confession,
John 20:23? He knows it is a process because of our fallen nature.

The Sabbath was changed to Sunday and renamed the Lord's Day in
honor of Our Lord's resurrection which took place on Sunday.


Here is proof Jesus was in the tomb 3 days. Pride keeps people from
recognizing God's authority here on earth, the Church would know. This info passed down from the Apostles.

_ _ _


The disciples arranged for the Passover meal, which took place after sundown on Thursday. We might call it Friday Eve, because by Jewish reckoning, the day begins with the previous sunset. That’s why we call 24 December “Christmas Eve.” Jesus and the disciples ate the Passover in the upper room. They ate it early, which was not uncommon. In that era, most Passover Seders did not include lamb, because most Jews lived too far away from the Temple to obtain a lamb that was kosher for Passover. Therefore the disciples, who were from Galilee, would have been accustomed to a Passover Seder without lamb. Judas left during the meal. Jesus and the remaining disciples adjourned to the Garden of Gethsemane, where Jesus prayed and the disciples kept falling asleep. Judas arrived to betray Jesus, who spent the rest of the night being tried by the Sanhedrin and by Pilate. The following morning, which was still the same day by Jewish reckoning, the Crucifixion significantly took place just as the Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the Temple. Matthew 27:62, Mark 15:42, Luke 23:55-56, and John 19:31 all inform us that this took place on Preparation Day, which is the Jewish name for Friday. Mark and John explain that the next day was the Sabbath. Later the disciples realized that in giving them the bread and pronouncing it His body, Jesus Himself had been the Passover lamb at the Last Supper. Thus Jesus, our Passover lamb, was sacrificed for our sins on Passover (1 Corinthians 5:7), and His blood protects us from the angel of death. Jesus died on the cross and was buried before sunset. So Friday was first day that Jesus lay in the tomb.

Saturday: the Jewish Sabbath
Jesus rested in the tomb on the Sabbath. According to Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1-3, and Luke 23:56-24:3, the day before the Resurrection was a Sabbath. This is the second day that Jesus lay in the tomb.

Sunday: the first day of the week, the Festival of First Fruits
On the third day, Jesus rose from the grave. It was the first day of the week and the day after the Sabbath, according to Matthew 28:1, Mark 16:1-3, Luke 23:56-24:3. John 20:1 says the Resurrection took place on the first day of the week. He does not explicitly say that the previous day was the Sabbath, but there is no room in his narrative for any intervening days. The first day of the week is the Jewish name for Sunday. Sunday is also the eighth day after the creation in Genesis, so Paul describes Jesus’ Resurrection as the first fruits of the new creation in 1 Corinthians 15:20-23.

Biblical Foundations:
• Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all inform us that the Last Supper and the Crucifixion took place on Preparation Day.
• Mark and John inform us that the next day, the day after the Crucifixion, was the Sabbath.
• Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John inform us that the Resurrection took place on the first day of the week.
• Matthew, Mark, and Luke inform us that the day before the Resurrection was the Sabbath, and John heavily implies it.

Ancient Christian writers confirm this reconstruction. In The Apostolic Constitutions, Book V, Section III, it says that the Last Supper occurred on the fifth day of the week (Thursday), that Jesus was crucified on the next day (Friday), and rose on the first day (Sunday), and it explicitly states that this constitutes three days and three nights. The Apostolic Constitutions uses Roman-style midnight-to-midnight days, so this squares with the New Testament’s use of sundown-to-sundown days. It also says that Jesus gave the apostles a commandment to pass on to us, to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays; the first to commemorate His betrayal, the second to commemorate His passion on the cross.

Therefore, it is obvious that the Crucifixion took place on a Friday, that Jesus rested in the tomb on Saturday, and rose from the grave on Sunday. So, you might ask, why didn’t the gospel writers just come right out and say that it was Friday, Saturday, and Sunday? The answer is that they did, for the circumstances under which they wrote. They were writing for an audience beyond Palestine, and in the Roman Empire of the first century, there was no general consensus about the names of the days of the week, the number of the current year, the names and lengths of the months, the date of the new year, or the time at which the day began. On that last point, the day began at midnight in Egypt, at sunrise in Greece, and at sunset in Palestine. So even though it is not what we are used to, the gospels are really worded in such a way as to make the dates and times comprehensible to anyone in the Roman Empire who was familiar with the Jewish Scriptures.

When you count days you get a different answer than when you subtract dates. If you go to a three-day seminar that begins on Friday, you expect it to end on Sunday, because Friday, Saturday, and Sunday are three days. However, if you subtract the date of Friday from the date of Sunday, the answer is two elapsed days. The ancients counted days instead of calculating elapsed time—in fact, Jesus Himself counted days this way in Luke 13:31-32. This is why the tradition is universal that Jesus spent three days in the tomb when He was buried on Friday and rose from the dead on Sunday. All intervals in the Jewish and Christian calendars are calculated the same way, which is why Pentecost falls on a Sunday and not on a Monday.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Unrealised

 

Sure, Paul. He declared he was of the tribe of Benjamin. Benjamin was a son of Jacob. Jacob goes back to Noah, Noah back to Adam. The author of the Torah, Moses, includes numerous geneologies in his books. Are you unaware of the detailed geneologies included in the OT?

Where are all of the above buried/located?

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Not true, the OT accounts are littered with genealogies where the OT authors traced their own lines back to Adam. You're arguing from ignorance.

The ignorance is in believing those are accurate genealogies.

Like I said, it's impossible because records were not kept. And if you believe the OT genealogies accounts then the world would be 6,000 years old. And it definately isn't. What you see in the OT is MADE UP by people to make their own family history more important. It is IMPOSSIBLE for them to be accurate. Completely and utterly impossible. Sorry.

Wow, now the insults come out, quite telling, thank you. Do you have anything to offer as proof that the given geneologies are incorrect as currently written? Or is that statement justg your prejudicial arbitrary conjecture?

Passive/aggressive much? :shk: I said it was ignorant to believe in those because I used YOUR WORDS back to you. YOU said I was arguing from IGNORANCE. YOU YOU YOU started with insults.

You have no proof that the genealogies accounts in the Old Testament are true. None. However, the evidence against them being true are substantial. As I said ... there wasn't that kind of record keeping ... and the earth simply is NOT 6,000 years old, which is how old it would have to be in order for those genealogies to work. I already said that. I understand that facts have a hard time seaping through those layers of cult indoctrination of yours .. but those ARE the facts.

Next time you accuse someone of not having facts or of throwing insults, you'd best look in the mirror. You have nothing to back up your claim that the earth is 6,000 years old and that there was record keeping of family lines .. heck, you have no proof of there even being a written language back in the days that Adam or Noah supposedly lived.

Those are the facts. Deal with it.

'God's 7th day Sabbath doesn't exist.
The earth wasn't made in 7 days, 6,000 years ago.
God didn't have to 'rest' on the 7th day.
THE END.

I am now officially lost off.
This is exactly what religion has come to in a sense. The thread is 5 pages long, no wonder globally we cant agree on nothing regarding it.
Gonna start from page one again.....

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Oooooh ... you are one of those 'once saved always saved' people, aren't you?
If so ... that explains a lot.

Originally posted by ovumcranium
Ellen White (SDA) claimed the pope (Syvester I) changed the day from Saturday to Sunday, (from a vision of hers) and stated that those who keep the Pope's Sabbath will receive the Mark of the Beast.

Yeah .... from a 'vision' of hers ... oh don't get me started on that so-called vision.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Martin Luther said this, that a Christian's life should be one of repentance.

Here's a famous Martin Luther quote from when he was high on power and positon ... 'If the wife isn't willing, then take the maid'. Sure .. lovely spiritual man. He had plenty of demons of his own to deal with - mostly of the sexual sort.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
What tripe. Satan is the on who deceived Eve.

Buddy .. the 'tripe' is the notion that there even was an Eve to begin with.
Much of the old testament isn't literal. The mistake is in thinking it is.
The story of Noah was taken from the Summerians, and changed around.
Same with both creation myths in the Old Testament. (they contradict each other by the way)
The Psalms that supposedly were written by David can be found on ancient Egyptian walls, written by Akhenaten to his sun god ... almost word for word the same .. and these are much older than Davids time.

Originally posted by lonewolf19792000
I didn't say being catholic was the unforgiveable sin either. I just said Roman Catholic Church (specifically the Vatican) are idolaters.

Catholics don't worship idols and there is nothing wrong with calling another human 'father'. The word wasn't banned by Christ. If you believe that, then you missed the whole point of what he was saying.

Call no man father
Do Catholics Worship Statues?


SOMEONE PROVE that the world is 6,000 years old and that it was made in 7 days.
Otherwise .... this discussion is silly and useless because God didn't make the world
in 7 days and didn't use the 7th to rest. Prove the world is 6,000 years old and that the
old testament is an accurate account. Considering there are MULTIPLE accounts of
the creation myth ... good luck with proving they are both accurate.

Originally posted by Andronian
1) Why is it, that people with no religious ties, or desires, find a need to attack those making statements, in an obvious religious forum.

2) The 4th commandment is indeed of the law...and Christ came not to destroy the law, but to magnify it.

3) The only sin not forgiven, is a sin not acknowledged, and prayed to be forgiven for.

4) Main stream Christianity, due to the enactment of the council of Nicaea...changed the day of worship for all Christians to Sunday...from the known Saturday worship by the Jews, so as to be not associated to them for their Non-Christian beliefs.

5) There by, Main stream Christianity of today, does not acknowledge this as a sin.

6) The Law states to REMEMBER the Sabbath, That is their lack of adherence to the Law...it makes no diff which day the current "Church Gov uses as the day of worship...it is to us to REMEMBER the true Sabbath, and to keep that day HOLY...you can go to church any day, or none, that doesn't matter.

7) Believe me, that regardless of the change in calenders to the Gregorian by the Catholic Church, the Jews have kept the same day for Millennium...and have counted every 7th day as the Sabbath.


You decide...History has already done the counting.

Don't be fooled or deceived by those who don't believe.

Just, Remember the Sabbath and you will not have broken the Law

In Revelations John states, that those who over come the beast have two things...those who hold the commandments of God, and the faith in Jesus

edit on 30-12-2011 by Andronian because: (no reason given)

edit on 30-12-2011 by Andronian because: (no reason given)

It's like this. Jesus said "You will keep MY commandments if you love me", what are Jesus' commandments? His commandments are what he taught.

Jesus "I have not come to do away (abolish) the old law i am come to fulfill it. By fulfilling it, our sins are covered once and for all, he didn't keeping dying and ascending forever to save us he did it once and for all. Jesus wanted us to keep his laws so that we would not devolve into lawlessness. His laws are his commandments.

Even in the book of Acts confirms we are not bound by the old law, the Apostles at the council of Jerusalem, sat down and hammered out that we are not to be bound by the law because not even their forefathers could bear that burden and they didn't want to hang that same yoke about our necks, these are the men Jesus taught himself. By your insistence that we need to learn the mosaic laws and keep them makes you a Judaizer and the Apostles were against your kind. I used to think like you too until i actually started reading the new testament for myself, i used to go around saying stuff like that to and i apolgize for my own judaizing. The pharisees even got onto Jesus for working on the sabbath when he healed a man on the sabbath.

Originally posted by Alchemst7

What difference is keeping the sabbath any differnt from using the Lords name in vein, or worshipping false idols.

Worshippingfalse idols as opposed totrue idols?

Aren't ALL idols considered false worship?

Isn't the figure of a man on a cross considered a graven image? Wouldn't that be a false idol?

Isaiah 44 speaks of a man chopping down a tree, then whittles and fashions his idol from it, then uses the rest of the tree to bake his bread and keep himself warm. The idol is just a piece of wood. Or today---a lump of gold or plastic. The image of something is considered an idol. It is the image of the beast system of domination. Remember Constantine's "vision"----In this sign conquer?

Originally posted by Alethea

Originally posted by Alchemst7

What difference is keeping the sabbath any differnt from using the Lords name in vein, or worshipping false idols.

Worshippingfalse idols as opposed totrue idols?

Aren't ALL idols considered false worship?

Isn't the figure of a man on a cross considered a graven image? Wouldn't that be a false idol?

Isaiah 44 speaks of a man chopping down a tree, then whittles and fashions his idol from it, then uses the rest of the tree to bake his bread and keep himself warm. The idol is just a piece of wood. Or today---a lump of gold or plastic. The image of something is considered an idol. It is the image of the beast system of domination. Remember Constantine's "vision"----In this sign conquer?

Indeed it is. An idol is anything made in the image of anything God made in the heavens or on the earth. Now the symbol of the cross per se, i doubt can be called an idol for nothing God made is fashioned from a cross, but an idol is also anything you kneel before and pray to or keep fixed in your mind as an image to represent Christ. The cross itself is nothing more than a tool (for execution), its what people do with it that makes it evil.

For what it's worth at this stage of the thread, I have a book by Michael J. Rood titled: The Pagan-Christian Connection Exposed (Bridge-Logos, Gainesville: 2004). Rood is one of those Christians who wants to cleanse Christianity from it's pagan infiltration, and wants to revert to Biblical concepts of days, months and festivals, while getting rid of Easter, Christmas and apparently the Sunday Sabbath.

I guess his question is: If it's not Biblical, where does it come from?
And it clearly comes from paganism, and a God who will not even hear the name of a pagan deity will not bless a people who run their calendar and worship by pagan norms.

It's all rather long-winded to explain in one post, but he writes:

To understand the Creator's reckoning of time and His seasons, or Festivals, we must first ask the question, "When does the day begin?" The Hebrew Scriptures record, and the Jewish people faithfully observed, that the day begins at sunset, not at the man-made hour of twelve o' clock midnight - a moment in time that was calculated as the point at which the Babylonian sun god was directly opposite one's position on earth - a point that is discernible only with the help of a modern chronometer.
....
The week begins at sunset at the end of the seventh day, the end of the Sabbath, the only day of the week that is not named by the Bible. All the other days are numbered. When the sun sets at the end of the Sabbath, it is the first day of the week; and shops around Jerusalem begin to open their doors for business.

In the book of the "Acts of the Jewish Apostles" chapter 20 verses 7-12 we read the disciples got together early "on the first day of the week" to break bread. They did not get up early on Sunday morning for a sunrise pork and pancake breakfast. They did that which we still do in the Land of Israel: as the sun begins to set at the end of the Sabbath, we gather in homes to share a meal with others in the community. We call it the third meal of the Sabbath (or Shabbat) ... When the sun sets, it is "early the first day of the week" and the fellowship often continues into the early hours of the morning.

(Rood: pp.104-105.)

So to Rood the Sabbath begins at sunset on Friday, and all the modern conventions stem from Tammuz/Nimrod worship. He challenges readers who disagree with his argument that God intended the Hebrew festivals, days and lunar calendars to be kept to write their evidence in the empty pages at the end of his book, and to also mention all the non-Jewish authors of the Bible. Well, my pages remain empty.

But I guess modern fundamentalists will just pick what seems "fundamental" to them, and defend their pagan and derivative Catholic traditions tooth and nail.
However, it seems to be a growing practice amongst some Christian sects to start obeying the Hebrew customs on these matters, and basically become like some Messianic Jews.
At least this seems far more consistent, especially when they want to lecture others with portions of the Bible.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Originally posted by Alchemst7
I believe Revelations 12 thru 14 is identifying who Gods people are and the wisdom and knowledge Gods people understand. many times does these 3 chapters repeat:

source: Bible Gateway

Rev 14: 9 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12 This calls for patient endurance on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus

or Rev 14:7 He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.” (Why is this quote of Exedus 10 commandments given to identify the sabbath or who to rest into?)

or Rev 12: 17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus. (again, those who Keep Gods commandments and the testimony of Christ!)

And if you say we are no longer under the commandments, does that mean I can now commit adultery with your wife, or can I now steal from you, or can I kill you? What difference is keeping the sabbath any differnt from using the Lords name in vein, or worshipping false idols. Revelations gives a Key to understand who Gods remnant people are and who the devil will wage war against!

You're correct on what Revelation says, but you're completely not considering what two commandments Christ gave under the New Covenant. Love God, Love people. In doing these two we fulfill the entire law. That's why Jesus said His burden was light and His yoke was easy.

2 commandments. If you committed adultery with my wife you've sinned against her and me, that's failing to love your fellow man. Same with murder, same with stealing from me. Everything you mentioned is sinning against fellow man, that would certainly violate Christ's 2 command would it not?

If you look at the 10 commandments, the first 4 show your love towards God and the last 6 shows love towards man.

Originally posted by colbe
Salvation is not a FREE gift. Our Justification is not a one time even.

Here are two verses from Revelation to prove both:

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Youre right. Where different denominations come into conflict is the interpretation of doctrine, in which they are preaching their opinions on doctrine instead of preaching what came from Jesus himself.

The moral of the story is read the book yourself, do not let anyone dictate to you what it means or you could fall into Lucifer's trap. Let the Holy Spirit guide you, do not let other men guide you. We all know what happens when you let a blind man lead another blind man, they both fall. By letting other people guide you, you fall prey to the same spirit that decieves them and this is why you must read the words for yourself. It is for this very reason i do not bother accepting what other men tell me about the scripture, i will read it for myself and pray the Holy Spirit guides me in the meaning of the words.