History of Palestine

Originally posted by dontreally
reply to post by stumason

There is a very deep theology behind the millenia long conflict between the Jews and Gentiles, which only the elite understand.

I totally agree. For one, the Jews have their origin in slavery and rose with the help of God, against the various tyrannical regimes in Egypt and in Canaan and defeated them...a taste of things to come. The elites, who relies on oppression to control the world have always hated the Jews, because the Jews represented a truly successful liberation movement...thats why all the tyrants in the UN hate them with a passion. The Israelis will ultimately be their undoing...and this they fear.

reply to post by SpeachM1litant

So no Palestinians left Israel during the War of Independence

Ummm. I just finished explaining WHY Arabs left after the war of independence. Reread the post. All the information and back history is there. Arabs ATTACKED the nascent Jewish state, in the small north east corner, which resulted in an Arab loss of land. This is what happens in war, my friend. That's how it is and has always been - but apparently, it isn't something to fret about and ask for 'backsies' until the Jews do it.

and after the Deir Yassin massacare?

What does that have to do with anything? 107 killed Arabs forced mass emigration? Since when?

So no Palestinians left their homes after the 6 day war?

First, who occupied those lands Israel now controls between '48 and '67? Jordan and Egypt. Why didn't they setup a state then? oh right.... They weren't happy with the boundaries. They also wanted Tel Aviv, Jaffa, Haifa, and every place Jews laid claim to.

And again, if Arabs left following the '67 war, Arabs are to blame again. They're the ones who amassed 100,00 troops on Israels borders. They're the ones who closed the strait - a cassus belli - to just one nation - Israel, while leaving it open to every other state.

None of this seems to matter to you people.

So Israel dosen't expand Jewish settlements in the West Bank like a conquerer would to mitigate the conquered and claim its hegemony over the territory?

This they've done, and I support it 1000%. The westbank is a post '48 term coined by the Jordanians for whats been traditionally, and historically called "Judea and Samaria".

In Hebrew, Judea is Yehudah, and Yehuda, belongs to the Yehudim (Hebrew for Jews). If Jews can lay claim to ANY lot of land, it is most definitely this piece.

They should have annexed the west bank long ago... Alas, they've chosen the harder route. Israel continues to assist, and yet at the same time, paradoxically, hinder, Jewish settlement in Judea and Samaria. But as for Gaza, all communities have been uprooted.. Even the industries left, the Palestinians have been sensible enough to destroy and turn into terrorist hubs.

Ok, then I guess you are in a sad state of denial.

No, SPEECH MILITANT - with the activist name, you're the one in denial, and who intends to lie and mislead with everyone of his posts.

Originally posted by dontreally
Ummm. I just finished explaining WHY Arabs left after the war of independence. Reread the post. All the information and back history is there. Arabs ATTACKED the nascent Jewish state, in the small north east corner, which resulted in an Arab loss of land. This is what happens in war, my friend. That's how it is and has always been - but apparently, it isn't something to fret about and ask for 'backsies' until the Jews do it.

There is no "right of conquest" in International Law, so really don;t know why people in support of Israel keep trotting this out. The only time territory can change hands legally is by agreement, such as a Peace Treaty. Anything else is theft.

Hence why the settlements in the Occupied Territories are illegal. Israel claims to have annexed the land, but this was done unilatterally so is therefore illegal. Even the US recognises this and constantly tries to get Israel to do so to.

reply to post by dontreally


Its sad that these people will not be deterred by the truth. Even after stating clear facts, they will continue promoting their myths.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by dilly1

 

People like yourself assume and don't read carefully.

LOL, ummm, apparently you didn't read a single link he included in that post, either carefully or carelessly.

Wow,,,I almost missed your cynical post. And now your going to wish you didn't send it.

I did read the three links. The first link had a cartoon map of supposed attacks on jews. Its also has testimonials or comments from jewish people. I wipe my arse with "comments" or blogs. But back to the cartoon map. The reason why I focused solely on north africa and spain was that the "middle east" had mostly attacks AFTER 1800. There were 2 in 620'sAD but how accurate is that? And another one in Palestine in 16 century. The rest were after year 1800..

Are you feeling smart now?

In addition the first site has a long list of jews in pretty much every freakin city. Was there violence in those cities before 1800? I checked some ,not all,too many. But there is nothing of the sort. Yes are you going have ignorant people messing it for the rest , yes and it still happens in the modern era. Your point?

The next two are from Wikipedia. If you don't know anything about Wikipedia , you should learn who owns the freakin thing. Do some research on wikipedia and do some research(not from the internet) on the history of spain and spanish moors.

For the majority of Moorish rule jews lived much better and were treated much better in southern spain than how the Christians treated the jews. You have no freakin clue of what really happened or the history of jews in that era or frankly any era. But enjoy your Wikipedia PHD.


Are you feeling smart now?



The 3rd link , again freakin wikicrap. I don't know what to say. I guess this is why the current population is so stupid and disconnected. They literally think they are learning something by going to these sites.

A bit of advice , I know you didn't post these links, but if your going to use a source, use a freakin book .


Are you feeling smart now?

reply to post by Sugarhitman

The Israelis will ultimately be their undoing...and this they fear.

Not Israelis. Not until Yisraelim means what its supposed to mean, that is, the manifestation of the nationalistic spirit of Judaism, will the nations quiver and realize they're dealing with something they have no defense against.

Secularists and ignoramuses will scoff and laugh at this "Haha, what a primitive moron", but they don't read enough. They either read their secular-atheist philosophy, or their gnosticism - and I read all that stuff too, but they don't read Orthodox Judaism...Or maybe they simply havent been graced with an understanding such as mine... I don't know.

But the metaphysics of the matter, to me, are perfectly clear. The idea of Hellenism is to uproot God, or in their language, "the demiurge" - which they interpret to be mans image of God, and not Gods interaction with man, from the terrestrial sphere. And this has been done with profound efficacy.. People cannot even see God in this world, aside from a deistic perspective, or at most, in a panentheistic perspective, but not in accord with mans deeds. To them, God does not concern himself with this sphere.

This may or may not be true. It could be a manifestation of a collective repression, which in the individual case, enables one to live as he will (this being the extant of Gods mercy and kindness) and live happily, until he dies, when he tastes the fruit of his deeds... But in this case, it is collective. Mankind as a whole is in rebellion against the divine masculine - against the divine archetype of creation, which philosophers distort and mystics delude. Some, for no other reason than sheer hatred of the Jews and their revelation, the Torah, which upsets their cultural agenda (which manly p hall and theosophists would call 'the great work' passed down from generation to generation) while others, ignorance, or self delusion. They love their traditions, they've been passed through the fire of molech, and like their parents, pursue the same course.

Not until the end of the 6000 years will truth sprout forth. Until then, we have lots of fighting and sorting things out to go through.

reply to post by stumason

There is no "right of conquest" in International Law, so really don;t know why people in support of Israel keep trotting this out. The only time territory can change hands legally is by agreement, such as a Peace Treaty. Anything else is theft.

But what about international law Wasn't it important that the Arabs acknowledge the UN partition plan of '47?

Did the Romans give the Jews a choice when they destroyed 985 towns and expelled millions of Jews? Nope???

Listen, obviously, the crux of Zionism opposes the aims of Arab transnationalism. This is to be expected. Thus, those idiots trumpeting peace need to put their heads on right. The Arabs want Israel GONE, in its ENTIRETY. There is no chance for peace, when 5 times, the Arabs have rejected compromise. They did'nt want the partition of '47, and they sure as hell wouldn't sit silent if they got their state in the west bank. It would continue, and they would continue to hammer away at Israel self esteem and ability to defend itself until it is gone - with the help of the Anglo-American and European establishment.

Originally posted by dontreally
But what about international law

Wasn't it important that the Arabs acknowledge the UN partition plan of '47?

Nobody asked the Arabs or the people living there for their input. It was decided by a clique of nations that had no moral right to do so.

Originally posted by dontreally
Did the Romans give the Jews a choice when they destroyed 985 towns and expelled millions of Jews? Nope???

Irrelevant. The UN Charter wasn't around in the 1st Century and it is this that governs the whole "annexation" thing the Iraeli's have a hard on for.

Originally posted by dontreally
Listen, obviously, the crux of Zionism opposes the aims of Arab transnationalism. This is to be expected. Thus, those idiots trumpeting peace need to put their heads on right. The Arabs want Israel GONE, in its ENTIRETY. There is no chance for peace, when 5 times, the Arabs have rejected compromise. They did'nt want the partition of '47, and they sure as hell wouldn't sit silent if they got their state in the west bank. It would continue, and they would continue to hammer away at Israel self esteem and ability to defend itself until it is gone - with the help of the Anglo-American and European establishment.

The whole problem could have been avoided if a state was created that had both Jews and Muslims living side by side. As it happens, the Jews were hell bent on expelling the Arabs and seizing all the land for themselves, because of some stupid nonsense written in a crap old book.

They feel like they have some right to the land because their ancestors were forces out 2,000 years ago. If we follow this example, where does it end?

Can the French claim parts of German and Poland? Can the English?

What about the Hungarians, can they claim parts of the Russian steppes?

Should US citizens be forced out of their towns and cities because the Native Americans want their land back?

Should the Turks claim parts of Central Asia?

The Japanese parts of China?

The Welsh, England?

All of these examples, and I can go on for pages and pages, happened in much more recent times than the diaspora so are much more valid. Migrations, expulsions and other movements of people have been going on for ages, but the only place you hear a group of people claiming land two millenia since they last had it is in Israel.

Quite why they couldn't just live together in a secular state is beyond me.

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Sugarhitman

 

My only issue is the taking of one group of people's land and giving it to another based solely upon the latter group of peoples "holy book", which in all honesty is a bunch of superstitious crap and no religious text, edict or practice should EVER be used to grab someone elses home.

What an odd thing to say!

Are you aware of the history and the rationale for how the Dome of the Rock came to be perched on the Temple Mount? The events leading up to that, and the justifications offered for it?

You are aware of the history, and how the Arabs gained "title" to al Quds to begin with, right?

If you are, that was a very odd thing for you to say.

I personally don't believe that the area of Israel belongs to Jews, Muslims, or Christians, and that as long as one or the other of those insists on seizing claim under false pretext to what is not theirs, strife will continue. A secular claim will eventually sort it out, but a religious claim will never do so, because ultimately one cannot call a deity to the witness stand to provide proof of title, and deities are notorious for getting bent out of shape whenever mortals seek to override them. ANY mortals - one cannot be a "follower" of a deity by leading it around by the figurative nose.

In the Christian Book, is written words to the effect of "Give Caesar what belongs to Caesar, and give God what is His". That separation of religion and government is the only thing that will ever bring peace to the Middle East. As long as any one religion is laying claim to the land ostensibly on behalf of God, but IN THE NAME OF THAT SINGLE RELIGION, to the exclusion of the others (yes, EXCLUSION - try carrying a cross or a Star of David in a procession on the Temple Mount some time) we will continue to have what we have there.

The land is God's, and remains forever. Government is Man's, and dies with him. One cannot be ruled by the other.

Israel absolutely has a right to exist in peace, just as any other nation does... as a SECULAR entity, not as the mouthpiece of God. How can a finite political entity ever hope to speak for an infinite deity? Same goes for Islam in it's various political incarnations. You see, a genuine god would tell people what to do, not the other way around, and I can bear no respect for a god who would allow that, and who would lower himself to dabble in the political affairs of mere mortals at their command.

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by JohhnyBGood
Yup - jews were only ever tolerated in muslim land so long as they accepted second class status - and even then they were subject to constant harassment and periodic pogroms. Add that to the Cathololic persecutions, the inquisition etc, plus numerous pogroms in Russia and finally the Nazi Holocaust (burn't offering).

The powers that rule the world seem to have a special interest in exterminating the jews - they are arranging Holocaust no 2 as we speak.

The jews have done more to advance the human race than any other group by a long way - just as Islam, Catholocism and Communism have done more to retard it.

Yup- jews and muslims weren't down with each other. Cause ,,,you know so many muslims who knew the muslims back in day that apparently treated jews as second class citizens. And you are sure about this how?

One has only to read the Muslim's own source materials - the Qur'an, the hadith and sunnah. Your answers will be found there.

In their own words.

reply to post by nenothtu


If you read my other posts, you'll see that I would support a state that incorporated both "Israel" and "Palestine" which was secular and favoured no one. As it stands, Israel is a Jewish state and, at it's birth, forced out a a good majority of the non-Jewish people who lived there.

Quite why they couldn't simply have moved in and got along mystifies me. But when you look at through the whole "Gods Chosen" crap and the superiority complex that is so blatant from the Israei side, you can see they had no desire whatsoever to live peacefully with anyone and wanted it all to themselves.

Originally posted by Sugarhitman

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by Sugarhitman

Originally posted by stumason
reply to post by Sugarhitman

 

Any argument for Israel that involves "God", "the chosen people" or anything similiar just highlights the ludicrous thought process of some people and how this issue can never be resolved while people believe in idiotic fairy stories conjured up by some crazy goat herders millenia ago.

God isnt the problem...Jew hatred is.

No,,,,, more like "Elite Euro Ashkenazi Jew from Kazaria" hatred.

And I don't hate anyone. I'm just stating the truth. Its you ,like the rest who switch it around to be anti-semitic jargon.

You mean Ashkenazi Jews who were oppressed in Europe? Doesnt sound very elitist to me. And I think the Khazars of modern Kazakhstan may have something to say about Ashkenazi Jews being the Khazars...Oh and the latest DNA tests taken in 2010...but let me guess, those tests are part of a Zionist conspiracy am I right?

THE RATED VERSION

First you have no proof that Ashkenazi jews were oppressed in europe. And don't give me the Holocaust as a talking point,cause the history of the euro jew goes farther back than WWII.


Khazaria has nothing to do with Kazakhastan . Lol!!!!!!!

In fact kazachastan doesn't even touch Khazaria. Khazaria is modern day Georgia. Russia,Turkey,Armenia and Azerbaijan are border countries.

What DNA test ? Real Jews don't have pale skin and blue eyes like Ashkenazi jews from khazaria. Do you really think the descendant from the 12 tribes would have blonde hair green/blue eyes?? Do you!! Do you know the word "Caucasian" come from a mountain range in Khazaria called "caucus".. There is no relation to the 12 tribes .


You think Zionism is a conspiracy ? Fine , .. Just remember this , because of your obvious limited knowledge , do to only reading the bible and some websites, you will never be able to defend your POV.

cheers

reply to post by Sugarhitman

Im speaking of the conflict. God is not the problem, intolerance towards Jews have always been the problem...Oh and most Zionists are not religious and only use the Bible in a historical context to prove their ties to Judea....lands stolen from them by Muslims, Greeks/Latins.

What amazes me is the fact that God (and the chosen ones) has not solved the problem.

If God handed Moses all the lingo about being the chosen ones, why has Judaism not eliminated the wicked ways of the others by now ?
AND, why did the other Abrahamic religions even spawn in the first place ?
AND, why has the Zionist always needed and pleaded for "assistance" ?

It's only been thousands of years.

The problems have only worsened day by day, month by month, year by year, century by century.

Why has it been allowed to force conversions from Judaism ?

Maybe the conversions allowed a financial agenda to continue "underground" ?

Wolves in sheeps clothing perhaps.

Merchant commercialism began and has expanded for 10's of thousands of years.

Maybe God actually said something a little different ?

In Jewish thought

Main article: Divine providence (Judaism)

Divine providence (Hebrew השגחה פרטית Hashgochoh Protis / Hashgachah Pratit lit. [Divine] supervision of the individual) is discussed throughout Rabbinic literature, and in particular by the classical Jewish philosophers. These writings maintain that Divine Providence means that God is directing (or even recreating) every minute detail of creation. This analysis thus underpins much of Orthodox Judaism's world view, particularly as regards questions of interaction with the natural world.

Divine providence

These tough questions are puzzling to many average people

Do logical and realistic answers exist ?

Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by dontreally
Ummm. I just finished explaining WHY Arabs left after the war of independence. Reread the post. All the information and back history is there. Arabs ATTACKED the nascent Jewish state, in the small north east corner, which resulted in an Arab loss of land. This is what happens in war, my friend. That's how it is and has always been - but apparently, it isn't something to fret about and ask for 'backsies' until the Jews do it.

There is no "right of conquest" in International Law, so really don;t know why people in support of Israel keep trotting this out. The only time territory can change hands legally is by agreement, such as a Peace Treaty. Anything else is theft.

Hence why the settlements in the Occupied Territories are illegal. Israel claims to have annexed the land, but this was done unilatterally so is therefore illegal. Even the US recognises this and constantly tries to get Israel to do so to.

So the lands the Jews owned in the West Bank and East Jerusalem before they were cleansed by Jordan...should they be given back to the Jews? Or will you support cleansing Jews from these lands they re-settled after 1967?


This outta be good. *smile*

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by dilly1

 

People like yourself assume and don't read carefully.

LOL, ummm, apparently you didn't read a single link he included in that post, either carefully or carelessly.

Wow,,,I almost missed your cynical post. And now your going to wish you didn't send it.

I did read the three links. The first link had a cartoon map of supposed attacks on jews. Its also has testimonials or comments from jewish people. I wipe my arse with "comments" or blogs. But back to the cartoon map. The reason why I focused solely on north africa and spain was that the "middle east" had mostly attacks AFTER 1800. There were 2 in 620'sAD but how accurate is that? And another one in Palestine in 16 century. The rest were after year 1800..

Are you feeling smart now?

In addition the first site has a long list of jews in pretty much every freakin city. Was there violence in those cities before 1800? I checked some ,not all,too many. But there is nothing of the sort. Yes are you going have ignorant people messing it for the rest , yes and it still happens in the modern era. Your point?

The next two are from Wikipedia. If you don't know anything about Wikipedia , you should learn who owns the freakin thing. Do some research on wikipedia and do some research(not from the internet) on the history of spain and spanish moors.

For the majority of Moorish rule jews lived much better and were treated much better in southern spain than how the Christians treated the jews. You have no freakin clue of what really happened or the history of jews in that era or frankly any era. But enjoy your Wikipedia PHD.


Are you feeling smart now?



The 3rd link , again freakin wikicrap. I don't know what to say. I guess this is why the current population is so stupid and disconnected. They literally think they are learning something by going to these sites.

A bit of advice , I know you didn't post these links, but if your going to use a source, use a freakin book .


Are you feeling smart now?

Im feeling smart:



""I wish you to know how these dogs of Jews are trampled upon, beaten and ill-treated, as they deserve, by every infidel nation, and this is the just decree of God. They live in this country [Palestine] in such subjection that words cannot describe it. . . there in Jerusalem, where they committed the sin for which they are dispersed throughout the world [i.e., the Crucifixion], they are by God more punished and afflicted than in any other part of the world. And over a long time I have witnessed that . . . No infidel [= Muslim] would touch with his hand a Jew lest he be contaminated but when they wish to beat them, they take off their shoes with which they strike them on the mustaches; the greatest wrong and insult to a man is to call him a Jew. And it is a right notable thing that the Moslems do not accept a Jew into their creed unless he first become a Christian. . . And if they were not subsidised by the Jews of Christendom, the Jews who live in Judea would die like dogs of hunger." Francesco Suriano, Treatise on the Holy Land (Jerusalem: Franciscan Press, 1949) [in original: Trattato di Terra Santa e dell'Oriente], pp 101-02. For a scholarly view of the Jews in Jerusalem in the late Mamluk period, when Suriano lived there, see Avraham David in "The Mamluk Period" in Israel: People, Land, State (Avigdor Shinan, ed.: Jerusalem: Yad Izhak Ben Zvi, 2005). and books.google.com... vtKFOrM0T-jIlOG3VWo0s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9mz6TpOdEoOWtwe6_LGtBQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=the%20jews%20of%20judea%20will%20die%20like%20dogs%20of%20hunge r&f=false



Thats how "Palestinian" Jews were living "in peace" with Muslims in the 15th century.

Originally posted by xuenchen
reply to post by Sugarhitman

Im speaking of the conflict. God is not the problem, intolerance towards Jews have always been the problem...Oh and most Zionists are not religious and only use the Bible in a historical context to prove their ties to Judea....lands stolen from them by Muslims, Greeks/Latins.

What amazes me is the fact that God (and the chosen ones) has not solved the problem.

Bible Prophecy shows that things would get worse before the final deliverance of Israel..I'll quote it for you in a sec.

If God handed Moses all the lingo about being the chosen ones, why has Judaism not eliminated the wicked ways of the others by now ? AND, why did the other Abrahamic religions even spawn in the first place ? AND, why has the Zionist always needed and pleaded for "assistance" ?

Where was that "assistance" when the Arabs invaded Israel in 48? No where to be found, and yet the Jews were victorious. Biblical Christianity has it's roots in the Jewish Nazarene sect, Islam is something different and is not Abrahamic.

It's only been thousands of years.

Which is like a day with God. *smile*

The problems have only worsened day by day, month by month, year by year, century by century. Why has it been allowed to force conversions from Judaism ? Maybe the conversions allowed a financial agenda to continue "underground" ? Wolves in sheeps clothing perhaps. Merchant commercialism began and has expanded for 10's of thousands of years. Maybe God actually said something a little different ?

But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3 unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, 4 traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God

2 Timothy 3:1


and:

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming, And your spoil will be divided in your midst. For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;The city shall be taken, The houses rifled, And the women ravished. Half of the city shall go into captivity, But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth And fight against those nations, As He fights in the day of battle. And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east...And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem:

Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet,
Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets,
And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths...


Judah [The Jews] also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together:
Gold, silver, and apparel in great abundance....


And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zechariah 14


This is the climax of the long conflict between Israel and the Gentile anti-Semites...Israel will be the undoing of all the tyrannical forces with the aid of the returning Messiah...we are currently heading in that direction because the Jew haters will not end their war against the Jews.

reply to post by stumason

Irrelevant. The UN Charter wasn't around in the 1st Century and it is this that governs the whole "annexation" thing the Iraeli's have a hard on for.

As if the UN member states really try to play fairly.

At the end of the day, the law can be interpreted and applied in whatever way the establishment chooses; and as we well know, there is probably no governmental body more corrupt and replete with scumbags, then the UN.

The whole problem could have been avoided if a state was created that had both Jews and Muslims living side by side.

Hmmm.. Have you read Thedor Herzl's Jewish state? The premise he builds his argument on is exactly that which you think would have solved the issue.

The Jews emancipated from Europes ghettos, like the Dhimmi second class citizen in Muslim lands, was always, were still, despite being freed, and "civilized", by European Enlightenment thinking, had to endure pogroms, and unfair accusations (i.e. the dreyfus affair) and other antisemitic accusations. When it was no longer Judaism Europeans disliked, it was the wealth of the Jews. If it wasn't the wealth of the Jews, it was their isolationism. If it's not their isolationism, its their proletariat rebelliousness. There always seems to be something that non-Jews dislike about Jews.

Perhaps, its exactly as George Soros says it is: Its the Jews fault, because he is a Jew, and wants to stay a Jew. Evil? Unfair? Absolutely! The machinations of an elite class threatened by the existence of a social-theological ideology which differs from their own? Yes. Does anyone who doesn't know any better care about the real reason? Unfortunately, no. But Herzl was definitely correct, given emancipationist 'age of reason' thinking, anti-semitism continued. The Jews were tired of being subject to this. Just as the French had France, and the Germans had Germany, the Jews wanted their land; and what better than Judea, in Palestine? The ancient Hebrew homeland of the Jews, where their national identity was forged.

If you were to walk around Israel, you would encounter far more ancient Hebraic relics of the past than Arabic. Even most of the Arabic names for towns in Israel DERIVE from Hebrew words..

As it happens, the Jews were hell bent on expelling the Arabs and seizing all the land for themselves, because of some stupid nonsense written in a crap old book.

To you its nonsense, because you would prefer not to look at it in the way that's its understood by Jewish intellectuals.

. If we follow this example, where does it end?

Oh please. Just deal with it. The Jews are absolutely unique. No book can compare to the power of the Hebrew Bible. Fact is: THEY'VE given at least as much to the modern world as the Greeks did. Something that is often ignored.

People always use this argument, "where does it end"...how bout, where does it begin? Give me another example of a people that survived 2000 years of forced exile from their land, to SURVIVE that exile, even amidst cultures different from their own, to persist, and then to resurrect, their ancient kingdom, in accord with Biblical prophecy.

Hey - say what you will, the Arabs were given the heads up 1400 years ago when Abd Al Malik Ibn Marwan built the dome of the Rock on the Jewish holy site, the place of Solomons Temple. Now, history has come full circle, the prophecies are in motion, the Jews are back, and the Arab lease on the land is almost over. Soon enough, the dome of the rock will be a figment of the imagination, just as the Waqf claims the Jewish temples to have never existed (and yet their own Islamic tradition acknowledges both temples)...

Originally posted by stumason
Migrations, expulsions and other movements of people have been going on for ages, but the only place you hear a group of people claiming land two millenia since they last had it is in Israel.

Absolutely true. The logical conclusion to be drawn here is that it has happened again. It seems from these boards that it is only considered wrong when done by Jews. I'm just not seeing the logic in an assertion that Palestinian's dead grandparents claim is any more valid to the modern title than a Jew's dead great great grandparent's claim is.

It seems to me that the truth of what IS, on the ground right now, takes precedent over ancient "maybes". It is what is which must be dealt with, rather than was was.

Israel, as a State, IS, and has every right to be, every bit as much as Zimbabwe, Iran, Argentina, Thailand, or any other nation which IS.

Quite why they couldn't just live together in a secular state is beyond me.

That's a hard thing to wrap one's mind around when one's sole desire is to kill everything that is not him, because his god says to. Religious fanaticism is not conducive to a secular mindset, and many, if not most, people are entirely unable to separate the two in their heads.

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by The time lord
Before people start saying it has nothing to do with the Jews, you can not deny the Romans existed in Isreal the evidence is overwhelming, the Bible states the Romans were there, the Romans wrote about the Christ and quoted from the Bible so much that it creates a second reference outside the Jewish history as evidence.
The Romans have Menorahs carved in their stone, Menorahs are found in ancient Israel's buildings, biblical buildings and places and ruins match the Bible from the time of Christ.

Then you have the ancient Tombs of the patriachs and other Biblical prophet tombs around the Middle East aswell like Ezekiel Tomb with Jewish writing on it.

Just look at the acheology and its all Biblical related with no sign of Islam anywhere before 650AD.

You do understand before 1800 jews,christians and muslims lived peacefully ALL over the middle east. Please tell me you understand that .

It wasn't until the "fabricated" and "pointless" WWI ,that all this moronic tension began.

The jews living in the middle east(NOT the freakin euro jews, big freakin difference) denounce an actual state for Israel or palestine.

This land is for no one but for everyone!!!

No one cares about fabricated and manipulated history of romans,jews and muslims. Its not about history,its not about religion. Its about jews from Kazaria who successfully claimed something that is not there's.

I agree but Israel needs to be spiritually Jewish in order for the prophecies to come about otherwise their God will not even think about coming down to show his face and bring peace to the world. Consequently by setting up Israel all the other surrounding peoples and nations will want to stop that and cause wars upon Jews ruling Jeruselem. The Muslims have been there to but nothing spiritual came of it, now that Israel is a nation many prophecies have been fulfilled and will continue to fullfil even the negative ones.

WW1 was partly to blame the Ottomans who joins the Germans and who Turkey still deny any connection with the Armenian genocides, it was there loss and the power shifted back to the Jewish and Christian faith. The Bible stated that God will bring the Jews back to the land.

Many Jews that came back to Israel were not even from Europe, they were cast out from Babylon/Iraq and Egypt aswell, that is why none of them live there today, the illusion is to think they all came from Europe, the fact is everyone eventually pushed them out including Arabs nations.

en.wikipedia.org...

From 1948 until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries; 260,000 of them reached Israel between 1948 and 1951; and 600,000 by 1972. Lebanon was the only Arab country to see an increase in its Jewish population after 1948, which was due to an influx of refugees from other Arab countries. However, by the 1970s the Jewish community of Lebanon too dwindled due to hostilities of the Lebanese Civil War. By 2002 Jews from Arab countries and their descendants constituted almost half of Israel's population.

The reasons for the exodus included push factors such as persecution, antisemitism, political instability and expulsion, together with pull factors, such as the desire to fulfill Zionist yearnings or find a better economic and secure home in Europe or the Americas. A significant proportion of Jews left due to political insecurity and the rise of Arab nationalism, and later also due to policies of some Arab governments who sought to present the expulsion of Jews as a crowd-driven retaliatory act for the exodus of Arab refugees from Palestine. Most Libyan Jews fled to Israel by 1951, while the citizenship of the rest was revoked in 1961, and the community remnants were finally evacuated to Italy following the Six Day War. Almost all of Yemeni and Adeni Jews, were evacuated during 1949–1950 in fear of their security. Iraqi and Kurdish Jews were encouraged to leave in 1950 by the Iraqi Government, which had eventually ordered in 1951 "the expulsion of Jews who refused to sign a statement of anti-Zionism". The Jews of Egypt began fleeing the country in 1948,and most of the remaining, some 21,000, were expelled in 1956. The Jews of Algeria were deprived of their citizenship in 1962 and had mostly immediately left the country for France and Israel. Moroccan Jews began leaving for Israel, as a result of the 1948 pogroms, with most of the community leaving in 1960s. Many Jews were required to sell, abandon, or smuggle their property out of the countries they were fleeing.

An additional 200,000 Jews from non-Arab Muslim countries left their homes due to increasing insecurity and growing hostility since 1948. Many Iranian and Kurdish Jews fled Iran and abandoned their property in fear, that

edit on 27-12-2011 by The time lord because: (no reason given)