History of Palestine

Originally posted by stumason

Ok, so herein lies the problem. If Jewish folk claim they are ethnic group, then reason suggests that they could trace a lineage back to the original inhabitants and have a modicum of a claim (although it still doesn't hold much water), but if we're now just calling it a religion and it has no "ethnic" grouping, then reason suggests that anyone can become a Jew, which puts any claims from 2,000 years ago on very shaky ground.

To recognize that the claim is a religious one rather than an ethnic one firms that ground up considerably. I agree, if the claim is based upon genetics, it's beyond shaky.

Let's put this into another context.. For sake of argument, lets say Native Americans were "animists" and claimed land back from the USA based on the fact their genetic ancestors resided in such locations.

I'm Shawnee, and we are not animists, nor were my ancestors, but for the sake of argument, let's run with that.

The UN relents and grants a huge swathe of the US to be given back to them.

The UN has no say in it - the UN did not establish the US, and cannot parcel it out as it sees fit.

Based upon ancestry, one could argue that they have some claim, as their actual ethnic group was forced from their homes.

Where the ethnic group originated has no bearing at all if the claim is on religious grounds.

But what your saying is that the claim is based upon religion, not ethnicity, which means anyone could convert to animism and lay claim to the lands simply by virtue of the fact they worship the same gods, even if they were ethnically a Nigerian, for example. This makes no sense.

Animism did not originate here and then spread out to the rest of the planet. The US has no special claim on animists, and vice versa. There is no special relationship. As near as I can tell, animism originated in Africa. I would not convert to animism just to claim a chunk of Africa. A religious conversion with such ulterior motives is no religion at all. Now, if I had converted to animism, say, 40 years ago, or if my ancestors had converted and I had maintained that relationship, and an animist homeland is established somewhere, I'm there. dude. I suppose it's more a matter of what one sees as cause and effect, and which came first.

Likewise, I'm not about to convert to Judaism just so I can claim a patch of Israeli desert. I have no more use for false religion than I have for false prophets who promote false religions, and a conversion solely for the purpose of claiming a patch of ground is hollow, means nothing.

That's not "religion" at all.

Originally posted by Sugarhitman

Jews are both a race and a religion...the word Jew is short for Judah, the patriarch of the tribe of Judah. In later times the descendants of Judah, named their state Judah, after their father...and their religion became known as Judaism, religion of the Jews....which also accepts converts. Also some Jews having blue eyes means what exactly? That theyre not ethnic Jews? LOL! Most Ashkenazi Jews do not have blue eyes BTW. So, all those white skinned Arabs like Helen Thomas are they Europeans too? LOL! Most Ashkenazi Jews look like Jeff Goldblum, Ben Stein, Ben Stiller, Ron Pearlman, Ben Bernanke...and they are clearly not whites nor Mongol Turks (Khazars)...your Khazar Theory is a dead theory.

I suppose I'll have to withdraw my support for Israel, then. Since I don't have the "Jew gene", I don't have a dog in that fight. If it's to be a genetic claim, rather than a religious one, then until all non-genetic "fake Jews" are expelled from Israel, I can no longer support it's existence.

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by dilly1

Yup- jews and muslims weren't down with each other. Cause ,,,you know so many muslims who knew the muslims back in day that apparently treated jews as second class citizens. And you are sure about this how?

One has only to read the Muslim's own source materials - the Qur'an, the hadith and sunnah. Your answers will be found there.

In their own words.

Its not about religion..jeeesssssus... You can hit yourself over and over. It won't make you smarter.

YOU constantly harp on how JEWS and MUSLIMS get along, then presume to tell ME it's "not about religion"?

As you said, "You can hit yourself over and over. It won't make you smarter."

Furthermore, that in no way addresses the point I made - it only attempts to circumvent it through denial. It must be uncomfortable to be faced with a presentation of fact for which you are supremely unprepared.

Originally posted by Helixer
reply to post by nenothtu

 

I have to say I agree with you on all points. You are fairly straight up and neutral on the matter. The funny part with zionists is that being a neutral is as bad as being a member of Hamas.

With the zionist you deal with the unreasonable.

That could be why I don't deal with them, don't invite them over to supper, and have never found one hiding under my bed or in my closet!

They can be as unreasonable as they like - I don't have to fall in line for it. Oddly, their opposite numbers are just as unreasonable and just as unreasoning. Until someone takes the steering wheel away from those two polar opposites, there will be no progress made.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by Sugarhitman

 

Jews are both a race and a religion...the word Jew is short for Judah, the patriarch of the tribe of Judah. In later times the descendants of Judah, named their state Judah, after their father...and their religion became known as Judaism, religion of the Jews....which also accepts converts.

Not exactly true. Paul calls himself both an "Israelite" and a "Jew" and he is from the tribe of Benjamin. In Acts Peter addresses the crowd as "Ye men of Judea" and in the next breath he calls the same crown "Ye men if Israel..".

Which part "Jews are both a race and a religion which accepts converts" didnt you understand?

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by dilly1

Yup- jews and muslims weren't down with each other. Cause ,,,you know so many muslims who knew the muslims back in day that apparently treated jews as second class citizens. And you are sure about this how?

One has only to read the Muslim's own source materials - the Qur'an, the hadith and sunnah. Your answers will be found there.

In their own words.

Its not about religion..jeeesssssus... You can hit yourself over and over. It won't make you smarter.

YOU constantly harp on how JEWS and MUSLIMS get along, then presume to tell ME it's "not about religion"?

As you said, "You can hit yourself over and over. It won't make you smarter."

Furthermore, that in no way addresses the point I made - it only attempts to circumvent it through denial. It must be uncomfortable to be faced with a presentation of fact for which you are supremely unprepared.

By all mean go right ahead. Take everything literal. Oh that's right ,,,Islam began before 622ad.

reply to post by Sugarhitman


Are you Hasbara? You are new here and you are mixing it up real good.

So are you going to edumacate us or what?

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by Sugarhitman

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
reply to post by dilly1

 

People like yourself assume and don't read carefully.

LOL, ummm, apparently you didn't read a single link he included in that post, either carefully or carelessly.

Wow,,,I almost missed your cynical post. And now your going to wish you didn't send it.

I did read the three links. The first link had a cartoon map of supposed attacks on jews. Its also has testimonials or comments from jewish people. I wipe my arse with "comments" or blogs. But back to the cartoon map. The reason why I focused solely on north africa and spain was that the "middle east" had mostly attacks AFTER 1800. There were 2 in 620'sAD but how accurate is that? And another one in Palestine in 16 century. The rest were after year 1800..

Are you feeling smart now?

In addition the first site has a long list of jews in pretty much every freakin city. Was there violence in those cities before 1800? I checked some ,not all,too many. But there is nothing of the sort. Yes are you going have ignorant people messing it for the rest , yes and it still happens in the modern era. Your point?

The next two are from Wikipedia. If you don't know anything about Wikipedia , you should learn who owns the freakin thing. Do some research on wikipedia and do some research(not from the internet) on the history of spain and spanish moors.

For the majority of Moorish rule jews lived much better and were treated much better in southern spain than how the Christians treated the jews. You have no freakin clue of what really happened or the history of jews in that era or frankly any era. But enjoy your Wikipedia PHD.


Are you feeling smart now?



The 3rd link , again freakin wikicrap. I don't know what to say. I guess this is why the current population is so stupid and disconnected. They literally think they are learning something by going to these sites.

A bit of advice , I know you didn't post these links, but if your going to use a source, use a freakin book .


Are you feeling smart now?

Im feeling smart:



""I wish you to know how these dogs of Jews are trampled upon, beaten and ill-treated, as they deserve, by every infidel nation, and this is the just decree of God. They live in this country [Palestine] in such subjection that words cannot describe it. . . there in Jerusalem, where they committed the sin for which they are dispersed throughout the world [i.e., the Crucifixion], they are by God more punished and afflicted than in any other part of the world. And over a long time I have witnessed that . . . No infidel [= Muslim] would touch with his hand a Jew lest he be contaminated but when they wish to beat them, they take off their shoes with which they strike them on the mustaches; the greatest wrong and insult to a man is to call him a Jew. And it is a right notable thing that the Moslems do not accept a Jew into their creed unless he first become a Christian. . . And if they were not subsidised by the Jews of Christendom, the Jews who live in Judea would die like dogs of hunger." Francesco Suriano, Treatise on the Holy Land (Jerusalem: Franciscan Press, 1949) [in original: Trattato di Terra Santa e dell'Oriente], pp 101-02. For a scholarly view of the Jews in Jerusalem in the late Mamluk period, when Suriano lived there, see Avraham David in "The Mamluk Period" in Israel: People, Land, State (Avigdor Shinan, ed.: Jerusalem: Yad Izhak Ben Zvi, 2005). and books.google.com... vtKFOrM0T-jIlOG3VWo0s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9mz6TpOdEoOWtwe6_LGtBQ&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=the%20jews%20of%20judea%20will%20die%20like%20dogs%20of%20hunge r&f=false



Thats how "Palestinian" Jews were living "in peace" with Muslims in the 15th century.

Thank you,,,sincerely thank you. Thank you for feeling smart,,,started well but you blew it when you think that this source entails the full story. Honestly, the source is actually pretty good , but its from one side.

Author = self proclaimed Zionist euro jew


Publishers= jewish


Again thank you for the source and for feeling smart. But don't think this is the deal breaker.


Yes, but Francesco Suriano who wrote that letter in the 15th century applauding the way Muslims treated the Jews of Judea, wasnt a "self proclaimed Zionist euro Jew"...He was a Roman Catholic in charge of the Holy Places in Jerusalem.


So, yeah, still feeling smart. *smile*

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by dilly1

Real Jews don't have pale skin and blue eyes like Ashkenazi jews from khazaria. Do you really think the descendant from the 12 tribes would have blonde hair green/blue eyes?? Do you!! Do you know the word "Caucasian" come from a mountain range in Khazaria called "caucus".. There is no relation to the 12 tribes .

You probably didn't get the memo that genetics - physical traits - doesn't determine religious practice or choice. There isn't a "religious gene" that forces you to follow a particular religion, or limits you to a particular religion, hardwired in right along with eye, skin, and hair color.

This is a prime example of those unable to separate the physical from the spiritual.

Memo to Leo:

The Jewish religion is the only exception where genetics and physical traits and vices are determined. They were separated spiritually and philosophically from all gentiles.. Inter breeding wasn't always on there "to do" list as much as goyims. Obviously they inter breed in the modern era but in antiquity ,not a chance(but taking into account there's always exceptions). Judaism is a way of life its an identity.... Not just faith.


Send me more memos

I rest my case with this presentation of evidence. You are utterly incapable of separating the spiritual from the physical. I don't know where your ancestors hail from, but you'd better be in line with whichever religion your genes specifically authorize next time I run a check.

BTW, I think those with the "Jew gene" have a monopoly on terminology such as "goyim", so you'd better not let them catch you using their language - unless your genes authorize it, in which case you'd better get your ass down to the temple and make amends with the Tetagrammaton for spoiling all his carefully laid plans.

As an aside, I think I should be afraid of you - it's not just anyone that can challenge a god and win, forcing him to accept only people with a specific genetic makeup, and not allowing him any more than that!

Originally posted by Helixer
reply to post by Sugarhitman

 

Are you Hasbara? You are new here and you are mixing it up real good.

So are you going to edumacate us or what?

Yes baby, Im a Hasbara....Sugarhitman, African American...Zionist...please to meet you. *smile*

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by dilly1

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by dilly1

Real Jews don't have pale skin and blue eyes like Ashkenazi jews from khazaria. Do you really think the descendant from the 12 tribes would have blonde hair green/blue eyes?? Do you!! Do you know the word "Caucasian" come from a mountain range in Khazaria called "caucus".. There is no relation to the 12 tribes .

You probably didn't get the memo that genetics - physical traits - doesn't determine religious practice or choice. There isn't a "religious gene" that forces you to follow a particular religion, or limits you to a particular religion, hardwired in right along with eye, skin, and hair color.

This is a prime example of those unable to separate the physical from the spiritual.

Memo to Leo:

The Jewish religion is the only exception where genetics and physical traits and vices are determined. They were separated spiritually and philosophically from all gentiles.. Inter breeding wasn't always on there "to do" list as much as goyims. Obviously they inter breed in the modern era but in antiquity ,not a chance(but taking into account there's always exceptions). Judaism is a way of life its an identity.... Not just faith.


Send me more memos

I rest my case with this presentation of evidence. You are utterly incapable of separating the spiritual from the physical. I don't know where your ancestors hail from, but you'd better be in line with whichever religion your genes specifically authorize next time I run a check.

BTW, I think those with the "Jew gene" have a monopoly on terminology such as "goyim", so you'd better not let them catch you using their language - unless your genes authorize it, in which case you'd better get your ass down to the temple and make amends with the Tetagrammaton for spoiling all his carefully laid plans.

As an aside, I think I should be afraid of you - it's not just anyone that can challenge a god and win, forcing him to accept only people with a specific genetic makeup, and not allowing him any more than that!

"presentation of evidence"

reply to post by Sugarhitman

"The Mamluk Period"

Interesting that you need to go back to the early Medieval period to ostensibly justify the subjugation of the Palestinians by the zionist Jew.

Do you know who were the Mamluks? They were white Europeans who served the Caliphate. Eventually they took over the Caliphate and ruled everyone harshly, it was the Medieval period of nearly 800 years ago so you can cut whining

It seems Europeans, whether they are Christian or Muslims, handle Jews in a certain way. You should take it up with the Mamluks.

reply to post by dontreally

What does that have to do with anything? 107 killed Arabs forced mass emigration? Since when?

The stories of the Irgun led massacare, commited under the noses of the Haganah and with little, if not any, condemnation from the Haganah, is regarded as the cause of the Palestinian exodus. It's media coverage throughout Israel, Palestine and the Arab world was a catalyst leading to the Palestinian exodus. My position in regards to the causes of the mass exodus is simple. The Deir Yassin massacare and the panic it encited coupled with the promise from the Arab armies to the native Arabs that they will clear the Jews from Palestine and the panic they themselves caused along with the Haganah offensive aimed at often brutaly capturing Arab villages in order to be able to connect the coastal centres of Israeli control with Jerusalem and the East Bank, to deliver military (and other) supplies to the Eastern front. As such one could say that the exodus was a by-product of the 1948 war. This is a position that many Israeli's now claim, ever since archives in Israel and the Uk were opened for analysis.

I really suggest you read the Israeli Defence Force Intellgence Services report entitled The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947/- 1/6/1948. It lists the causes in order as being (1) Direct, Hostile Jewish [Haganah] operations against Arab settlements, (2) The effect of "our" hostile operations against nearby Arab settlements, (2) Operation of Jewish dissidents [Irgun Tzvai Leumi and Lohamei Herut Yisrael], (4) Orders and decrees by Arab institutions and gangs, (5) Jewish whispering operation [psychological wardare], aimed at frightening away Arab inhabitants, (6) Ultimate expulsion orders [by Jewish forces], (7) Fear of Jewish respone following major Arab attack on Jews, (8) the apearance of gangs [Arabs forces] and non-local fighters in the vicinity of a village, (9) Fear of Arab invasion and its consequences, (10) Isolated Arab villages in puerly predominantly Jewish areas and (11) Various local factors and general fear of the future.

That is the conclusion the Israeli Defence Force Intelligence Services came to, not me. I guess you will discard or ignore this evidence simply because it is not in allignment with your ideological position, but as a rational person with no ideology guiding my view in this conflict I will accept it. One thing I love about Israel is the fact that their archives are far more open to the world then say the Jordanian or other Arab archives.

For further reading I suggest you read Benny Morris's (a Zionist and fanatic supporter of Israel, who even once said Israels greatest mistake was not evicting the Palestinians forcibly) collection of Israel's titled "1948 and after".

The Arabs did definetely encourage the Palestinians to leave, but this was not one of the major causes of the Palestinian exodus. So who do we point the finger at? If finger pointing were to be done one (given the evidence) would have to point their finger at the policies of Israel. However, as this helps neither side we can safely assume that it was a result of Israeli policies (largely) and some Arab policies, as well as being a by-product of the war.

They also wanted Tel Aviv, Jaffa, Haifa, and every place Jews laid claim to.

Not exactly. While radical elements wanted the extinction of the Jewish state, negotiations centred around the Arabs reclaiming control of the areas entitled to a Palestinian state in the Partition plan. There were no demands for Tel Aviv in the various negotiations and peace feelers conducted by the Arabs. Once again another lie on your part.

And again, if Arabs left following the '67 war, Arabs are to blame again. They're the ones who amassed 100,00 troops on Israels borders.

Last time I checked the Palestinian civilians were not in control of the state of Egypt, Syria or Jordan. I don't see why they are to blame? Also, you one sided and simplified view of the 6 day war is alarming. I suggest you actually read into it instead of relying on pro-ZIonist sources for every hint of information.

This they've done, and I support it 1000%. The westbank is a post '48 term coined by the Jordanians for whats been traditionally, and historically called "Judea and Samaria".

That is the equivalent statement of me proffesing my support for Palestinian terrorism (which I do not support). It is also illegal and the historical justification is redundant.

No, SPEECH MILITANT - with the activist name, you're the one in denial, and who intends to lie and mislead with everyone of his posts.

Nice deflection tactic although it is stupid and childish. The name comes from a song (about peace). Instead of making accusations point out my lies. I don't see any.

Originally posted by dilly1

By all mean go right ahead. Take everything literal. Oh that's right ,,,Islam began before 622ad.

On the contrary - I'm taking it metaphysically. YOU are the one trying to segregate and allocate religions based upon genetic authorizations, disallowing a religion to anyone not in possession of the authorizing gene. How much more literal does it get than that?

As I recall, Islam began in 610 AD. You are referring to the date of the Hegira, but there was Islam before that, or there would have BEEN no Hegira.

Originally posted by dilly1

"presentation of evidence"

Might I suggest a remedial reading class? YOU presented the evidence for me. Try reading it again, with that in mind.

I bet it still gets lost on you.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by dilly1

"presentation of evidence"

Might I suggest a remedial reading class? YOU presented the evidence for me. Try reading it again, with that in mind.

I bet it still gets lost on you.

What evidence have you presented? Islamic scripture,,,,,, oh please

You choose to ignore my logical perception of history.

Originally posted by Helixer
reply to post by Sugarhitman

 

"The Mamluk Period"

Interesting that you need to go back to the early Medieval period to ostensibly justify the subjugation of the Palestinians by the zionist Jew.

Do you know who were the Mamluks? They were white Europeans who served the Caliphate. Eventually they took over the Caliphate and ruled everyone harshly, it was the Medieval period of nearly 800 years ago so you can cut whining

It seems Europeans, whether they are Christian or Muslims, handle Jews in a certain way. You should take it up with the Mamluks.

Me whining? Noooooo. I simply wanted to contest the myth of Islamic tolerance for the Jews of Palestine....Palestinian Jews were oppressed by the Muslims, and Islamic hatred of Jews predates Israel and Zionism...of course you knew that. *smile*

reply to post by dilly1

Real Jews don't have pale skin and blue eyes like Ashkenazi jews from khazaria. Do you really think the descendant from the 12 tribes would have blonde hair green/blue eyes?? Do you!! Do you know the word "Caucasian" come from a mountain range in Khazaria called "caucus".. There is no relation to the 12 tribes .

did you say 'real' Jews? :-) seriously? As opposed to counterfeit Jews or poseurs? lolol!

The Jewish religion is the only exception where genetics and physical traits and vices are determined.

vices? Did you say vices? Did you mean vices?

They were separated spiritually and philosophically from all gentiles.. Inter breeding wasn't always on there "to do" list as much as goyims.

say what?

wow - just, wow...

tell me - was Jesus a real Jew, or a fake Jew? I wonder, because in most of his pictures he has blue eyes...

just joshin' dilly - please, carry on. I've learned a lot from you tonight

I thought some claims say there really is a "Jewish" genetic marker.

Cohen (sounds European).

Cohen Modal Haplotype

DNA Abstracts

The two modal haplotypes in the IandP Arabs were closely related to the most frequent haplotype of Jews (the Cohen modal haplotype).

Interestingly, one of the Lemba clans carries, at a very high frequency, a particular Y-chromosome type termed the "Cohen modal haplotype," which is known to be characteristic of the paternally inherited Jewish priesthood and is thought, more generally, to be a potential signature haplotype of Judaic origin.

Y chromosomes traveling south: the cohen modal haplotype and the origins of the Lemba--the "Black Jews of Southern Africa". .....

... The Cohen Modal Haplotype has also been found in groups of non-Jews, notably the Lemba of Southern Africa (Thomas MG et al 2000) and groups of Kurds.

The Cohen Modal Haplotype has also been found in other groups of non-Jews, Sephardic converts in the Americas are widespread from the colonizations.

How does "religion" play into this ?

Or has the "Cohenism" model been exploited and renamed ?