Kim Jong-il Has Died

Originally posted by detachedindividual

We would all have been celebrating in the streets if we were alive when Hitler died.

And KJI is not Hitler... to make that comparison is absurd.
How many died at the hands of KJI?

If you want to compare leaders to Hitler, perhaps try some US presidents or British PM's


Oh no, wait... they only kill other people's civilians, they don't count...

Actions and behavior are what are celebrated. KJI does not deserve to be celebrated or mourned. He was a man who spent billions of $'s on himself and his military elites while his people struggle.

Well his family and millions out on the streets mourning him would disagree with you.
You tell me a leader who isn't a multi-millionaire and whose own citizens aren't living in poverty?

Even without all the so-called propaganda against him (which is a little meaningless because we don't spend that much effort tarnishing most other leaderships!) you cannot deny that his family and military have been living a very comfortable lifestyle while his people suffer.

That can be said of many, many countries the world over.
Just because other countries have technology and internet and dvd players and all the other stuff that is considered progress, doesn't mean the people are better off.

Yes... we are so amazingly happy and advanced here in the west... most people see the same four walls every day, shop online, work online, "see their friends" onlline and get all their information from the TV and internet.

Awesome...

Progress = The dumbing down of people
Progress = Living in a little box with all your electronic devices and "stuff"



I am in no way defending this man, his regime or his doings.... merely saying that perhaps mocking a dead man, just after his death is perhaps in poor taste.
We are all aware of conditions inside NK and the fact that KJI was an awful leader and treated certain members of society very badly.... nobody is saying that he was a good, decent man who loved people and will be sadly missed.

Just perhaps have some respect for the dead.

That's too much to ask for these days right?



This man would not play ball with the west.

Any other brutal dictator that does (Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel, et al) play ball.... we (the west) support them, arm them and allow and fund the oppression of the citizens.

This man would not allow western intervention and we vilified him.


Funny that isn't it?


Who else stopped playing ball recently? And had opposed a central bank? Wanted the gold standard.... and is now dead?

Oh yeah.... Gaddaffi.


Funny how our media and government picks and chooses like that.

reply to post by detachedindividual

He was a man who spent billions of $'s on himself and his military elites while his people struggle.

Hold on were you reffering to Obama or Bush?

When the dead are dictators who used their people and the suffering of those people to enrich themselves, yes!

Again, its okay for Obama and Bush though?

reply to post by InsideYourMind


Might aswell be refering to every single leader in the world....Only person that was in power that treat his people right was gaddafi and look what happend to him.

Originally posted by Speakerofthetruth
Only person that was in power that treat his people right was gaddafi and look what happend to him.

That's a bit of a stretch... while there were many "great" things in place in Libya... he still brutally tortured his citizens and crushed any opposition to his rule.

Originally posted by blupblup

Originally posted by Speakerofthetruth
Only person that was in power that treat his people right was gaddafi and look what happend to him.

he still brutally tortured his citizens and crushed any opposition to his rule.

To this i say one thing....You've been caught in the disinformation web my friend.
Dont believe everything you read. I have friends in libya and what we have been told about him is mostly complete and utter BS

Was this guy as bad as they say he is? I don't understand how the entire country is crying, like they lost their mother, yet why? If he was such a monster... These people aren't just crying, they are balling... Are they that brainwashed, or is there more to the story? Is there some stockholm syndrome going on?


U

Originally posted by Speakerofthetruth

To this i say one thing....You've been caught in the disinformation web my friend.
Dont believe everything you read. I have friends in libya and what we have been told about him is mostly complete and utter BS

No.. I really haven't.
To think that Gaddaffi was some all loving benevolent leader who loved all citizens and had open and fair elections and had free press and TV and so on.... is just stupid.


He didn't, the guy was an ass.


I said some stuff in his defence up there and said that the west knocked him off because he wouldn't play ball, wouldn't have a central bank, wanted to move to the gold standard, wanted a unified, richer Africa.

I'm well aware of all the "good" things.

but please don't be ignorant of the awful things he did.

And he did do awful things.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
We would all have been celebrating in the streets if we were alive when Hitler died.

Originally posted by blupblup
And KJI is not Hitler... to make that comparison is absurd.
How many died at the hands of KJI?

If you want to compare leaders to Hitler, perhaps try some US presidents or British PM's


Oh no, wait... they only kill other people's civilians, they don't count...

The question was about celebrating the death of ANY person, not specifically KJI.
People were celebrating the death of Hitler, and there are people here suggesting the death of ANY person should be mourned. That is not the case.
I won;t be mourning the death of Bush, or Blair, or Cheney. I am well aware of who deserves sympathy and who doesn't, and for me that is based on the way they led their people, their actions, and their legacy.

Please make sure you know what you are responding to before you start, otherwise you just look stupid.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Actions and behavior are what are celebrated. KJI does not deserve to be celebrated or mourned. He was a man who spent billions of $'s on himself and his military elites while his people struggle.

Originally posted by blupblup
Well his family and millions out on the streets mourning him would disagree with you.
You tell me a leader who isn't a multi-millionaire and whose own citizens aren't living in poverty?

Granted, there are plenty of leaders who live in luxury while segments of their people are still in poverty. I'm not making an excuse for them, but you cannot be saying that it's okay for him when others do it.
You have the freedom to learn, you have the freedom to speak, you have the freedom to leave your country, you have the right to elect your leader, you have the freedom to discuss this on the internet... These are freedoms that none of the people of NK have. You and I are far better off than the people of NK, even with our war mongering leaders.

As is being discussed in the media, the "millions" of people you see mourning (there are not millions seen mourning, BTW) are doing so because they feel that it is what is expected of them. In a country where portraits of their "Dear Leaders" watch over them in every room, and people regularly vanish for speaking out or simply not showing "enough" respect to their leaders, it's no surprise so many would want to give the impression that he'll be missed.

NK is a very closed country, where the vast majority have absolutely NO contact with the outside world. The effects of that form of incarceration and indoctrination are well known and it is no surprise to me that many will genuinely feel sorrow. Bit the majority of what we're seeing is based in fear, not mourning.

Originally posted by detachedindividual
Even without all the so-called propaganda against him (which is a little meaningless because we don't spend that much effort tarnishing most other leaderships!) you cannot deny that his family and military have been living a very comfortable lifestyle while his people suffer.

Originally posted by blupblup
That can be said of many, many countries the world over.
Just because other countries have technology and internet and dvd players and all the other stuff that is considered progress, doesn't mean the people are better off.

Yes... we are so amazingly happy and advanced here in the west... most people see the same four walls every day, shop online, work online, "see their friends" onlline and get all their information from the TV and internet.

Awesome...

Progress = The dumbing down of people
Progress = Living in a little box with all your electronic devices and "stuff"



I am in no way defending this man, his regime or his doings.... merely saying that perhaps mocking a dead man, just after his death is perhaps in poor taste.



This man would not play ball with the west.

Any other brutal dictator that does (Libya, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Israel, et al) play ball.... we (the west) support them, arm them and allow and fund the oppression of the citizens.

This man would not allow western intervention and we vilified him.


Funny that isn't it?


Who else stopped playing ball recently? And had opposed a central bank? Wanted the gold standard.... and is now dead?

Oh yeah.... Gaddaffi.


Funny how our media and government picks and chooses like that.

There are plenty of things that we do need to change about our own cultures and what we prioritize, I agree. But this is a little hypocritical from a person discussing freely on an internet forum. The people of NK are denied that right.

You live in a country (I presume) where you are able to vote in free and fair elections. You have social systems in place to assist you when things get bad. You have access to food, water, shelter and medical assistance whenever you need it...

Finaly that prick is dead, hopefully they let down there walls and let us help them properly for once...then again his son looks like a daddy pleasing power hungry little turd so it might go the other way and make things worse trying to make daddy happy just like bush did

Kim is dead. Long live the Kim!

North Korea has to be one of the most enigmatic nations in modern human history.

That a cult of personality could be built and sustained around a single family line in a communist state is almost a contradiction unto itself. Stalinist government constructs generally thrived on internal power struggles and purges that, in turn, kept the names on the government roster in constant flux. How the first Kim survived until 1994 is no big mystery but that that two succeeding generations of the same direct bloodline could assume power by name alone in this form of government is quite unusual.

NOTE: If you need a misty mental image to identify with, think if Russia today as being under the thumb of some guy named Vladimir J. Stalin... great grandson of the 'boss', old Papa Joe Stalin.

One has to wonder just how much effort will be required for the young Jong Un to not just make the ascension, but also to maintain it for the long term. There are, undoubtedly, both military and party officials with more time and experience who may well assume it their duty to usurp at least some degree of authority. How that would play outwardly in regard to South Korea, China and the US is not an easy question to answer. It's not even a sure thing that the rest of the world would even get wind of such a struggle until well after the fact.

But then again... one way to be absolutely sure that you were in full control of this particular nation would be to instigate a conflict with the South. From there, you would stir your peasantry to rise in your favor through patriotic rhetoric. After that, you could conduct purges and rid yourself of even the highest ranking opponent.

...

Originally posted by InsideYourMind
reply to post by detachedindividual

 

He was a man who spent billions of $'s on himself and his military elites while his people struggle.

Hold on were you reffering to Obama or Bush?

When the dead are dictators who used their people and the suffering of those people to enrich themselves, yes!

Again, its okay for Obama and Bush though?

edit on 19/12/2011 by InsideYourMind because: (no reason given)

You cannot compare the poverty and isolation of those in NK to the poverty in the USA! That is just lunacy!

I agree that our countries definitely need work, and I am NOT, I REPEAT NOT, suggesting that our leaders are fantastic examples of the democratic system at work.

Would people please stop with their own little brand of propaganda here on the boards? You're making yourselves look like hypocrites.

I fully accept that our nations are not fantastic and I would love nothing more that to see the likes of Bush and Blair tried for war crimes. I agree that the USA spends billions on their military, while there are people living below the poverty line. All of this goes without saying.

BUT... you have the right to discuss it, you have the right to leave, you have the right to vote, you have the right to an education, you have the right to medical care, you have the right to criticize, you have the right to do a thousand and one things that the people of NK are denied by their dictator.

I am actually pretty surprised that there are any people on this forum that would support the idea that KJI was a good leader.

You seem so eager to attack western governments that you think anyone they disagree with must be a model of perfection, and that is - frankly - batsh*t crazy!

I'll bet you're the same people who support everything going on in Syria, Iran, China, Yemen or Zimbabwe, just because those nut cases refuse to be preached to by the western leaders?

You know, you can think for yourself (unlike the people of NK) and you don't have to support everything a lunatic dictator does just to stick your fingers up at Obama, Cameron or all the other puppet governments!

I manage to hold all our western leaders in disdain without supporting a lunatic like KJI!

Originally posted by detachedindividual
I won;t be mourning the death of Bush, or Blair, or Cheney. I am well aware of who deserves sympathy and who doesn't, and for me that is based on the way they led their people, their actions, and their legacy.

There is a difference between not mourning and then celebrating and mocking.
Nobody has to mourn his death, mark it, remember it or anything... but to gleefully mock and laugh at the death of another human being, IMHO, is wrong.

I'm not even saying you did this... my comments in thread were general comments, aimed at nobody... you decided to somehow get involved.

Granted, there are plenty of leaders who live in luxury while segments of their people are still in poverty. I'm not making an excuse for them,

And I'm not making any excuse for KJI.... so what's your point?

but you cannot be saying that it's okay for him when others do it.

I didn't..... I said that every leader lives this way... every single leader in the world lives a life of luxury while their people suffer.


So.... yeah.

You and I are far better off than the people of NK, even with our war mongering leaders.

Again, didn't say that KJI was nice and that I don't appreciate my freedoms.

But again, the bigger question of whether we in the west are happier than poor people who have no technology and no amazing "stuff" could be an interesting discussion.... not one to be had here and now, but an interesting one all the same.

NK is a very closed country, where the vast majority have absolutely NO contact with the outside world. The effects of that form of incarceration and indoctrination are well known and it is no surprise to me that many will genuinely feel sorrow. Bit the majority of what we're seeing is based in fear, not mourning.

Of course... we don't know much at all about the country and how the people think and feel.
It's not our way of doing things and the whole place seems a little weird and sad and oppressed and wrong to us... and it probably is all those things.

But I guess seeing it from the outside, we'll never know.

Many people suffer in NK and many people have literally no human rights whatsoever, for this there can be no excuse and I truly hope that they can start to reach out to th rest of the world and that somehow NK can slowly transform into a better place for the people who live there.

You never know I guess.

There are plenty of things that we do need to change about our own cultures and what we prioritize, I agree. But this is a little hypocritical from a person discussing freely on an internet forum. The people of NK are denied that right.

I don't think It's hypocritical at all.
I didn't say I was oppressed or restricted in my freedoms at all... I didn't say anything hypocritical at all?

The people of NK are denied that right... the people of several countries are denied that right.

I would say China is as bad as any nation...

But as they own most of the debt, I'm sure our governments will still be buddying up with them.


Cheers.

Originally posted by USarmyFL
Was this guy as bad as they say he is? I don't understand how the entire country is crying, like they lost their mother, yet why? If he was such a monster... These people aren't just crying, they are balling... Are they that brainwashed, or is there more to the story? Is there some stockholm syndrome going on?


U

edit on 19-12-2011 by USarmyFL because: (no reason given)

If you look into the security, propaganda and ultimate control that has evolved through in N.Korea, it is scary to think. But that a look at history, Dr. Joseph Goebelles, minister of propaganda for the Nazi's, he made it clear how people can be indoctrinated and not only that, make people happy living in the nation they are in, close them off from the outside world and soon enough people will not know anything different, its horrible to think of the means used inside the fortress that is N.Korea, they are a SERIOUS threat at this time given whomever is in control, but i do believe we should not jump to immediate conclusions but nature and nurture will make it hard in my opinion for the apple to fall far from the tree.

WOW this thread really flushed out the DPRK shills...jong was a terror to the people of NK. The only tragedy is the fact he didn't die swinging from a noose.

reply to post by blupblup


gah my point was that thiers soo much disinfo...that stuff he didnt do gets credited to him and so forth i am aware he did some bad stuff but that doesnt make him responsible for *Events* that were done by certain Un parties and allies to make the events of this year much more acceptable.

reply to post by GLontra


Except that's wrong.
Naivety is a terrible disease.

What's with all this video of North Koreans crying but with no tears coming out? Bunch of fakers!

Probably some N. Korean propaganda.

reply to post by Speakerofthetruth


Yeah that's why his people turned on him, coz he was a top bloke.

Curious thing, he was dead two days before it was announced. That makes me think that since it must have been on the weekend, and that the powers there needed to arrange their stock market holdings in such a was so as to avoid as much losses as they could before trading resumed this morning on the New York stock exchange. Another thing..... as looney tunes as this Dude was, He was able to put the US in the hot seat more than once and do the boogie dance. No small feat. I keep thinking this 'new awakening 2012' thing every time some new news comes across, and some sensational story reaches print. I mean look at the mid east, all the overthrows there, our troops returning from Iraq, sun spot activity, Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other stories around the world loosing their grip. I don't think the Mayan thing really means much, like the end everyone seems to think or the new awakening or whatever, never the less the world stage has had some remarkable activity as of late. I'd guess that N. Korea will do something provocative right away..... or will become less of a threat and seek to secure more aid worldwide. I think these 'nere'do nuke' guys are finding the cost of maintaining these useless bombs is better left to those who can truly afford all the associated problems and risks that make the nuke club less and less attractive in reality. Well, my own thoughts... I hope they can somehow now move towards some sort of north and south reunification that would benefit the entire area, and the world in general. We will see how this plays out in the coming weeks, and hopefully it will be non-eventfull.

Originally posted by USarmyFL
Was this guy as bad as they say he is? I don't understand how the entire country is crying, like they lost their mother, yet why? If he was such a monster... These people aren't just crying, they are balling... Are they that brainwashed, or is there more to the story? Is there some stockholm syndrome going on?


U

edit on 19-12-2011 by USarmyFL because: (no reason given)

The media paints an image of a "dictator" and "hermit state" the reason is because DPRK is socialist and wont play ball with the usa imperialists,ask yourself why every country who goes against the usa is branded a terrorist state and threat to national security ect.

I can guarantee you no tears will be shed for any of our pathetic leaders,kim jong il was a man who lived and died for his people which is something we cant relate to.