ACARS Confirms 9/11 UA 175 Aircraft Was Airborne Long After Crash! Just WOW!

reply to post by gamesmaster63


And no, there is nowhere to hang belly tanks on either a KC-135 OR a 767. Someone is screwing with you.

reply to post by vipertech0596


Did you actually witness the aircraft striking the towers?

I'm not doubting your belief, I'm just saying that unless you were actually there, then you truly don't have any way of being absolutely sure, and yes, the same applies to me. I am just trusting those that I have found trustworthy in the past.

Originally posted by gamesmaster63

All of the veterans identified the craft as KC-135's, not Boeing 767 passenger jets.

You do realise that KC-135s are four engined? To make your story fit you would also have to believe that all the video and still footage of the Boeing 767s have been faked.

KC-135 from 2001 with earlier engine fit.

www.airliners.net...

KC-135 from 2001 with upgraded engine fit.

www.airliners.net...

Apologies Proudbird as I didn't see your earlier in-depth reply.

Good morning, I said i'd do this so here you go. My work computer doesn't let me convert PDF's so I'll have to add the telex scans later.

The first picture is the acars message system which I have opened to show the uplink and downlink messages, most of them are normal maintenance



This one is the message that I am typing to send to an airplane currently enroute.



This one shows an updated up/down link page with the message that I sent at the top


And finally what the message looks like after it's been transmitted to the aircraft.



The request to save a copy was cut off because it's on the next page and I didn't get a screen shot, but I'm sure no one will debate that it's the same message.

Next what I'll do is get the copy of the acars message as requested and show that with my telex copy of the message that I sent. Maybe the time stamp on the acars message will be a minute or two off from the telex copy which would be the proof that the bottom time stamp on a telex has nothing to do with when/if the sent message was received. I have no idea, but we will see.

Sorry if the pictures didn't come out that great, first attempt at uploading.

reply to post by gman1972


Good work. We already know that the "PilotsFor9/11Truth" have jumped the gun on this (again), and continue to make these bogus claims, just to get attention and "donations".

Sadly, the damage is done. Links to Rob Balsamo's website come up immediately when you Google these terms. Balsamo himself personally oversees his own "advertising", by stoking the same tired nonsense, each time with a new sock username. His "work" is complete, and he still wins.....because so many people continue to unwittingly "shill" for him.

Of course, the call over at his website to "print up" the article, and pass it around to every Tom, Dick and Harry you can think of is yet another marketing ploy, shrouded in the barest shred of fake "credibility" under the guise of attempting to "reveal the truth" of these "terrible crimes".....

The funniest bit is where he exhorts you to pass the article along to airline pilots, because "they like to read things while in cruise". LOL!! Yeah, we all love great comedy, too.

Oh, I see your airline operates Boeings? (The EICAS message references tips that off...no worries, though)....

reply to post by ProudBird


Thanks, I hoped that I could prove some credibility by posting those. I had to remove the third picture as I left a bit of info on there which I mean to blank out.

I wont have the telex scans till this evening when I get home. Good eyes by the way, if it ain't boeing I'm not going lol.

reply to post by gamesmaster63


So, you believe all the photos and video was faked too? Even in a photo, it's easy to tell those aircraft apart.

So this is interesting,te only way anyone could have brought america down was from within,and it is being done as we speak,amazing,I dont think there are any Cowboys left to save them this time,now all the billions China has been pumping into American crooked politics is finally seeing paydirt,the money put into the NRA the money spent fighting the NRA just manipulating America through her decietful greedy leaders,just like Rome,in fact exactly like Rome.

We are in deep #e here and I hope everyone can see where this is going,the American people do not have an advocate in this issue and they badly need one..

There is no hero available,and if America cannot Immediatly turn and burn these crooked decietful American leaders both military and civil,the country is lost completely,and fully.


Thats right no one can save America but herself,and the world is closing in in her Quickly,believe it or not stupid yaaankeeee brothers the world liked John Wayne and they actually believe the stuff your own people used to truly believe and represent,they would still be lead by a Cowboy,but you dont seem to have any left.

Maybe the Powerful men in Texas are not the same ones who allowed their own President to be assasinated in a coup-de-tat,in Dallas,just maybe there is one cowboy left out there somewhere.


Either way americas only chance at the future its people wish for is if they willingly seek out those responsible for the lies and deciet that have ravaged the country,and this will run deep and will maybe change world dynamics.

Problem is we need to keep our witchhunt within our own borders and not let our quest for justice go beyond our own borders because this is how these despost have hidden for so long,behind the threat that full disclosure will cause a world war,they have screwed us and then held us hostage with the evidence of their own wrongdoing.

There is only one way to fix this problem,in-house,we need to clean up our own house and not let our mess spill past our own door,we need to get our hands dirty and name names and make sure that we remove those responsible from power in every way including fiscally,worldwide,imprisonment with no political recourse or protection.

We must forgive any wrong committed against our crooked lieing pre-dessesors and admit we are at fault for allowing our country to rot to the point that we bacame vulnerable to such attacks.

We must buck it up and ,focus our anger and frustration on those that have lied to us in the name of public service,we must reject the claim the lies are told in the name of national security,that the very people are lied to for their own good,we must rally against this particular idealism and track down EVERY SINGLE PERSN WHO HAS WILLINGLY MISREPRESENTED THEIR COUNTRY WETHER IT WAS UNDER THE AUSPICES OF BEING A SIMPLE EMPLOYEE OR NOT,a traitor is a traitor and there is no where to hide anymore,you can be working for the government doing their bidding and still betray your country,it is this BS immunity that has brought America to her knees.


Only the real TRUTH can save this country from a civil war,the rot runs so deep that it has divided the loyaltys of real americans and has blinded them to their own brothers and sisters words and dreams.


One man must stand and make change happen,one man must risk his life and become a martyr for america,he needs to be virtuous and brave ,and honest for his whole life,he cannot be rich,he cannot be involved in the evils of commerce and religon,he must be pure of intent and American through and through..



Come on there has to be honesty out there,there has to be a superhero who sees the need for justice and closure and healing,in this great United States???


There must be someone who the Military will uni-laterally cede to globally,that man must be elected by the American people ,and he cannot be connected to any current group of despotic politicians or religons,he must be a man only of the people.

ehem...back on topic please?

Rob has responded to a post I made at P4T asking for additional confirmation that the last line does indeed indicate message received time:

As or the second time stamp, all we can go by is the people who work at the airline. Their ACARS system may be tailored to their needs, which is why we haven't seen a standard technical acknowledgement from United, instead Ed Ballinger describes,

Mr. Ballinger stated that the ACARS messages have two times listed: the time sent and the time received. He stated that once he sends the message it is delivered to the addressed aircraft through AIRINC immediately. He is not aware of any delay in the aircraft receiving the message after he sends it.

Clearly Ed is referencing the aircraft and not a "printer". I tried to explain this to the people over at ATS, but their mods deleted it, and I was banned.

Now, it's quite possible that "gman" (appropriate name for sure), could have two time stamps on his ACARS messages at his airline, in which the second time stamp refers to a printer.

But for United Airlines, the second time stamp refers to when the airplane received the message, as stated by United Airlines Dispatcher Ed Ballinger.

pilotsfor911truth.org...

reply to post by TrueAmerican


I am sorry to burst the bubble, here.

But.....that is the same double-speak as usual, from that particular "source".

Note that it is only the "opinion" of Rob Balsamo as to Mr. Ballinger's "meaning", there. Once this genie of misinformation was let out of the bottle by the "PfT", there is never any retraction, nor admission of a mistake of any kind, by this same group.

This is not the first time such badly-researched and poorly executed "smoking guns" have been issued by them. And sadly, it likely will not be the last.

Perhaps it was missed, one page back. Here, the reprise and abridged version:

Source for some real ACARS messages

reply to post by gman1972


Some examples of ACARS related to United 93

From the interview by Michael J. Winter to the FBI, p. 56-57:

Messages #18 and #19 were sent to the aircraft from CHIDD using the RGS near Champaign, IL CMI as designated in the line "AN N591UA/GL CMI...". Both messages were sent to the printer and Message #19 also activated an audible signal in the aircraft.

These are the ACARS logs Winter is referring to (see UAL ACARS list PDF released through FOIA


DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111410/ED
CMD
AN N591UA/GL CMI
- QUCHIAKUA 1UA93 EWRSFO
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD -
DO NOT DIVERT TO DC AREA
CHIDD ED EALLINGER

;09111410 108575 0706



DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111410/ED
CMD
AN N591UA/GL CMI
- QUCHIAKUA 1UA93 EWRSFO
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD -
DO NOT DIVERT TO DC AREA
CHIDD ED BALLINGER

;09111411 108575 0707


Note that both have the Sent and the Received timestamps, which confirms Ballinger's statement. Also, please note that Winter clearly declares that these messages were received, which proves that United 93 not only was airborne after 10:03, but was more than 300 nm away from the alleged crash site (note that the transmitting RGS is CMI, ie. Champaign, IL).

One additional piece of evidence comes from David Knerr (interview to the FBI, p. 36):

These references also identify that a ACARS message has been received by its sender, either ground communications or the aircraft. In the final moments, at 10:12 AM EST, of UA FLIGHT 93's flight, ACARS messages were being sent from ground communications but were not being received. This was causing the ACARS messages to be rejected. KNERR advised that FLIGHT 93's low altitude may have
caused this dilemma or the fact that FLIGHT 93 had already crashed at the time the messages were sent.

KNERR further advised that AERONAUTICAL' RADIO INCORPORATED ARINC serves as the network administrator for the communication data. According to KNERR, this is important to remember when reviewing data messages because uplink and downlink times may show a time delay when compared. This is caused by the/processing of multiple ACARS messages through the ARINC network at the same time.

Winter confirms that the last 5 messages were sent to United 93, but were not received by the aircraft:

Messages #20 to #24 were sent to the aircraft from CHIDD. However, all of the messages were rejected indicating the aircraft did not receive them.

This is the only example of message not received by United 93 within the list of UAL ACARS released through FOIA:


CHIAO CHI68R
.CHIAOUA 111420/ROB
CMD
AN N591UA/GL DEC
- QUCHIAOUA 2
DDLXCXA
***UA93 EWRSFO***


As you can see, unlike the above messages, here no timestamp for the Received field is visible.

Originally posted by ProudBird
Perhaps it was missed, one page back. Here, the reprise and abridged version:

Source for some real ACARS messages

edit on Sat 3 December 2011 by ProudBird because: (no reason given)

Real ACARS? The ACARS shown in the page you linked appear to be decoded by a radio amateur with some home software.

To the best of my knowledge, such ACARS are not decoded by a proprietary airline decoder software. This explains their format.

Finally, please note that the UAL ACARS list released through FOIA in 2009 unfortunately does not contain the complete logs, but only the version from Ballinger's desk.

This video was posted some years ago which also stated 175 was still in the air, not sure if it's been posted already but here it is:

Originally posted by Insolubrious
This video was posted some years ago which also stated 175 was still in the air, not sure if it's been posted already but here it is

If you had read the comments you would have seen

""Flight trackers" only track flights that have filed an IFR flight plan. This screen you see is just a pictorial representation of all the flight plans in the area, with real time position updates. Since there were no updated radar returns or subsequent transponder squawks from the plane after the impact, the flight tracker program just showed its last known position. And since the flight plan was not yet complete, the icon wasn't removed like it would have been if it had landed at the airport

chester8420 2 months ago"

Originally posted by spoor

Originally posted by Insolubrious
This video was posted some years ago which also stated 175 was still in the air, not sure if it's been posted already but here it is

If you had read the comments you would have seen

""Flight trackers" only track flights that have filed an IFR flight plan. This screen you see is just a pictorial representation of all the flight plans in the area, with real time position updates. Since there were no updated radar returns or subsequent transponder squawks from the plane after the impact, the flight tracker program just showed its last known position. And since the flight plan was not yet complete, the icon wasn't removed like it would have been if it had landed at the airport

chester8420 2 months ago"

If that were the case then shouldn't we see flight 11 on there as well, and It's last report was at 30,000ft?

Okay folks, here's a real acars exchange, the top part is the acars that I sent to an aircraft, the bottom is what they received, this is a continuation of my other post showing the system.



So to explain, the top part is my copy, which is simply a receipt of what I sent. I was a bit careless with the paint at the top, but you can see the last two numbers 25, the full is of course the same as the bottom 1625. At the bottom of that message is the date/time it was printed, the printer it was printed on xleo and the number of the telex 000276. As you can see with the exception of the details at the bottom and the words in the body of the message, it's the identical format to the quoted acars messages in this thread. I would say that this shows that the messages quoted here are the same as what mine is, a printer copy of a sent message and nothing to do with the message being received.

Remember here guys this is really old technology, when I started working here 20 years ago this was done exactly the same way, same format, same spacing, IDENTICAL to how it was done 20 years ago, and it wasn't even close to new then either. There isn't a return message from the flight deck printer which confirms a message is received or if it isn't. However the computer will send a message back after a time (not sure how long) if the message has not been successfully transmitted. In the screen on my previous post instead of showing up or down it would show NOACK, meaning it didn't go through. This again has nothing to do with the time stamp on my copy of the message as I would get a completely different message back if it doesn't go through. Something like "last message uplink failed" That way you know the message didn't go through.

I could send this to an aircraft that doesn't exist and I will get the same copy as above, but a few minutes later I will receive a reply such as "no such aircraft is currently flying" or something like that. I have done that in the past when I have mistyped the registration.

As for the bottom message they don't get a time stamp at the bottom, they only get what time I sent it to them and where it came from. As you can see the time and date match when I sent it, which is kind of unfortunate I was hoping it would be different so I could show that my sent time was different, but oh well that's reality.
If you notice in the upper right hand side it has a different time 1624z. That was when I finished typing the message and hit enter but didn't hit send yet. Not sure why it records that.

Now before anyone starts picking away and questioning what i've wrote here, please just be aware I'm not trying to prove that 9/11s official story is correct, and I am not trying to argue with anyone on this or other sites. I don't really like the fact that my name is being used on other sites in negative ways when all I am doing is sharing my professional knowledge. So if you have any honest questions about this go ahead and ask and I'll do my best to answer. I have never claimed to be an expert in anything, but I have been doing this all day, every day since 1990.

Have a good weekend

PS my nick is gman because my first name starts with a G, I am a man and I was born in 1972… very unoriginal and I wish I had picked a cooler name like the Flash Bang dude, or Willy Wonka but alas I was short on imagination when I signed up. Nothing more to it than that.

reply to post by gman1972


Kudos, gman1972.

I could send this to an aircraft that doesn't exist and I will get the same copy as above, but a few minutes later I will receive a reply such as "no such aircraft is currently flying" or something like that. I have done that in the past when I have mistyped the registration.

You can look at this link, for example, and see that a B-767-222 with registration N613UA is "parked" and taken out of operation, and is in storage. It is just one digit removed from a similar jet (that no longer exists), that one that was United flight 175 -- N612UA.

Since N613UA has not been re-assigned, you can send an ACARS msg to it, and get a "no ack" back from it, seems likely.

reply to post by Insolubrious

If that were the case then shouldn't we see flight 11 on there as well, and It's last report was at 30,000ft?

The transponder on American 11 was not squawking any codes, at all....after the hijacking was underway. NO transponder, nothing on any flight tracker website available to the public.

The folks at ATC can see a primary target (or "skin paint"), but it won't be conveyed into these online tracker programs.

Thank you to the posters that at least responded with clarity and politeness, I very much appreciate that you are trying to teach me. I may not believe everything you say but we can at least have a meaningful discussion.

vipertech0596, I believe very little that I haven't seen with my own eyes.

Peace and goodbye.

reply to post by gman1972

Originally posted by gman1972
So to explain, the top part is my copy, which is simply a receipt of what I sent. I was a bit careless with the paint at the top, but you can see the last two numbers 25, the full is of course the same as the bottom 1625. At the bottom of that message is the date/time it was printed, the printer it was printed on xleo and the number of the telex 000276. As you can see with the exception of the details at the bottom and the words in the body of the message, it's the identical format to the quoted acars messages in this thread. I would say that this shows that the messages quoted here are the same as what mine is, a printer copy of a sent message and nothing to do with the message being received.

No, it's not the identical format. Please take the time to read the UAL ACARS list released through FOIA carefully and double check. You will discover that in some instances there is a 1 or 2 minutes difference between the time when an ACARS was sent and the time the same ACARS was received, whereas most of ACARS are sent and received within 60 seconds.

Also, we have confirmation of this from David Knerr in his interview to the FBI:

KNERR further advised that AERONAUTICAL' RADIO INCORPORATED ARINC serves as the network administrator for the communication data. According to KNERR, this is important to remember when reviewing data messages because uplink and downlink times may show a time delay when compared. This is caused by the/processing of multiple ACARS messages through the ARINC network at the same time.

FBI302, p. 36

Knerr confirms the delay is due to the traffic and the fact that ARINC must sometimes route multiple messages at the same time. Obviously the second timestamp is not the same time when the message was sent and has nothing to do with the printer itself.

I could send this to an aircraft that doesn't exist and I will get the same copy as above, but a few minutes later I will receive a reply such as "no such aircraft is currently flying" or something like that. I have done that in the past when I have mistyped the registration.

Exactly. If you send your ACARS to an aircraft that does not exist because you mistyped your uplink or you send your ACARS to an aircraft that exists and your typing is correct but, for whatever reason, the aircraft does not receive it, this is what you get:

CHIAO CHI68R
.CHIAOUA 111420/ROB
CMD
AN N591UA/GL DEC
- QUCHIAOUA 2
DDLXCXA
***UA93 EWRSFO***


No timestamp for the Received time field, no counter number.
It's all in my previous post, but apparently you did not bother to read it.

Now one other example from the UAL ACARS list released through FOIA. In this case it is United 27, an UAL aircraft who was not directly involved in 9/11. However, analyzing the format of the ACARS uplinked to UA27 can help confirm my assumption is correct.

DDLXCXA CHIAK CHI68R
.CHIAKUA 111432/ED
AGM
AN N447UA/GL MSP
- /UA27
- MESSAGE FROM CHIDD –

REF: PASSENGER DEPLANEMENT.

ADVISE YOUR CREWS TO DEPLANE AS SMOOTHLY AND QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

FOLLOW EITHER LOCAL STATION PROCEDURES OR IF REQUIRED
HAVE THE CREW ARRANGE FOR DEPLANEMENT.

CHIDD/FLANAGAN/ OBH FLT OPS EMERGENCY TEAM.

CHIDD ED BALLINGER

;09111432 108575 0744

p. 57/66

The above log is an ACARS message received by UA27 at 10:32 EDT though the RGS of Minneapolis/St.Paul (MSP). Note how Sent and Received timestamps are visible.
The following is a failed ACARS message (not received by UA27):

HDQDD CHI68R
.HDQDDUA 111530/LIN
CMD
AN N447UA/GL MSP
- QUHDQDDUA 2
DDLXCXA
***UA27 ***

p. 4

Again, no timestamp for the Received field, no counter #. This message was sent from the ground at 11:30 EDT. The aircraft did not receive it, probably because it had already landed somewhere and its onboard ACARS MU had been turned off.