US/China and Pakistan. No False Flag needed!

reply to post by Xcathdra


I cant speak for Britt

But I'm of the opinion that it isn't so much about the "US" need for fuel but rather to have an "Influence" on who get's it. The man controlling the oil tap is the new Golden rule

reply to post by SLAYER69


Thanks for the interesting thread on something I know next to nothing about. I have always wondered how Pakistan managed to get hold of nuclear missiles in the first place.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Ha...."highly likely"? Finks....all of them.....finks!

What would you speculate given that India halted border talks -- the growing China-Pakistan relations and a Pakistan with the testicular fortitude to maybe stick to its guns and indefinitely keep the supply routes closed?

My guess -- they are receiving their "aid" now from China; covertly of course.

reply to post by purplemer



Fair enough.

That's what this thread is all about. Trying to separate the Facts from BS. So how did Pakistan obtained their nukes?

Without further ado...
A Brief History of Pakistan's Nuclear Program

Pakistan's nuclear weapons program was established in 1972 by Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, who founded the program while he was Minister for Fuel, Power and Natural Resources, and later became President and Prime Minister. Shortly after the loss of East Pakistan in the 1971 war with India, Bhutto initiated the program with a meeting of physicists and engineers at Multan in January 1972.

India's 1974 testing of a nuclear "device" gave Pakistan's nuclear program new momentum. Through the late 1970s, Pakistan's program acquired sensitive uranium enrichment technology and expertise. The 1975 arrival of Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan considerably advanced these efforts. Dr. Khan is a German-trained metallurgist who brought with him knowledge of gas centrifuge technologies that he had acquired through his position at the classified URENCO uranium enrichment plant in the Netherlands. Dr. Khan also reportedly brought with him stolen uranium enrichment technologies from Europe. He was put in charge of building, equipping and operating Pakistan's Kahuta facility, which was established in 1976. Under Khan's direction, Pakistan employed an extensive clandestine network in order to obtain the necessary materials and technology for its developing uranium enrichment capabilities.

reply to post by ownbestenemy


I'm still wondering about the circumstances involved.
I'm sure it wasn't just some hell bent chopper pilot who just thought to himself....

"Hey, Let's attack an obvious Pakistani border outpost which is clearly visible for no apparent reason"

reply to post by SLAYER69


I agree! Since the story broke, I have been saying to people on the thread relating to the issue to be patient until more information is provided. Still, some continue to play the blame game before everything is known. It seems to me, it was probably an epic mistake on the part of the Nato force. Militants have been known to attack and cross over the boarder.

Perhaps, this air crew thought they could cross and get them before the Pakistani's caught wind of it. Very similar to the Turks and Iranians when they have entered Iraq to engage Kurdish militants when they boarder cross. Something went horribly wrong. I am waiting to learn more about what happened, and the deaths of the Pakistani troops is regrettable. However, people should not jump to conclusions either and resort to knee-jerk reactions. Very good point Slayer!

I just want to say how awesome this thread is. Fact based opinions and viewpoints and alternative news sources are what make this site great - infinitely more interesting and useful than all the "WWIII is here! lulz" threads (for me anyway).

I do agree, though, despite NATO's flaws, I don't think they went in and blew up a checkpoint for no particular reason. They probably would've had to see something, ask for permission to engage, etc, before actually doing anything. Hopefully more info comes soon.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by BRITWARRIOR

 

I still fail to understand the middle east for oil argument since the US obtains the bulk of our poil from non middl east sources. Canada is first, and venezuela is second... Only about 25% of US oil imports come from Middle East sources...

Don't forget we let Iraq sell all of their oilfields to China.

It didn't help us one bit in the energy sector.

Originally posted by SLAYER69
reply to post by ownbestenemy

 

I'm still wondering about the circumstances involved.
I'm sure it wasn't just some hell bent chopper pilot who just thought to himself....

"Hey, Let's attack an obvious Pakistani border outpost which is clearly visible for no apparent reason"

Yep exactly...I was merely remarking to the political tap-dance the PA officer was engaged in. Hopefully this doesn't just die out and get buried. I think this is a major blow to relations. Some reports, as in the video are saying the troops at the outpost were "sleeping" but that of course is from the Pakistani side; NATO will say something else.

Originally posted by Xcathdra
reply to post by BRITWARRIOR

 

I still fail to understand the middle east for oil argument since the US obtains the bulk of our poil from non middl east sources. Canada is first, and venezuela is second... Only about 25% of US oil imports come from Middle East sources...

Don't get me wrong they have a point, but then people go over board and start dreaming, its the way these people fiddle the facts to push their propaganda, i don't know why are government do more in the way of explaining to these morons who are gaining in numbers daily,

Lets take a look at Libya

We all know how it unfolded, from Tunisia - Egypt - Bahrain few other and then Libya at the same time as a few others Syria shortly after

Gaddaffi set about murdering his own people because he refused to step down when the vast majority of his country wanted him to step down, what did he do? he murdered them on the streets and called then all rats, would you see Obama doing that? erm no,

He promised mass genocide of those so called rats, the right thing to do would have been to step in and prevent such an act, i think we can all agree on that

AND now comes the part where people get confused, much like Iraq, similar anyway "the after part"

The UK was rewarded rebuilding contracts 300 billion worth of rebuilding contracts to be precise, and no doubt western firm will get drilling rights & drilling experditions in Libya

Whose faults that, really whose fault is that?

So ok what MI6 & CIA agents went in there years ago and course all this to happen, just so Gaddafi would make such a stupid decision? he could have stepped down, retired with his billion he raped from his own people and live a life of luxury, did the CIA MI6 to get him to make that decision making it legal to take action? did it really take all those other Arab nations to riot first just to get Libyan Oil? or to tip Libya into the perfect scenario creating the conditions?, jesus christ we are talking outrageous odds here, if that is indeed the case then WOW this mastermind must have had a time machine and practised a fair bit to make it all happen as it did unfold

All that happen was oppressed people rise up and wanted change, i was watching the news today it looks like the CIA & MI6 are still in Egypt by the way...JOKING!!!!!, which was beautiful to see, and nice to see they still want it so badly thankfully nobodys getting shot at tho, but we all know that's only because there is NO OIL in Egypt right????

Basically an idiot made a poor decision, and he just so happened to be someone behind a terrorist attack and someone the west wanted out the way, its just clever people seeing an opportunity to good to miss out on, that's just good business and as far as i am aware its not illegal either,

Double

reply to post by SLAYER69


I thought Britt made some good points.

These days controlling oil is becoming more critical for the short term. The "man" controlling the tap is a nameless faceless corporate entity, whose own internal politics is more vicious and convoluted than anything we see in governments.

As far as the nature of oil reserves of the future, the light sweet easy to get crude is running out, and all alternatives are going to be a great deal more expensive, and extracting gas and oil from shale is going to be a lot more expensive, and looks to create far more environmental harm than people are willing to stand for.

This makes corporate entity man even more psychotic than normal. All of this ties together.

I think it is a given that China seeks territorial expansion. Pakistan is a choice piece of real estate for Chinese territorial expansion. While China has a considerable coast line, it is boxed in by Japan, Vietnam, The Philippines, and U.S. control of the Mariana Islands. Pakistan offers China a broader access to the seas, which would greatly enhance any expansion of Naval power.

The other big issue is religion. China has no freedom of religion issue to deal with, as the official position of China on religion is that they have no respect for religion, and no qualms about religious oppression. This may put China in a better position to deal with religious extremism. This creates a very interesting match up against corporate imperialism, which is very much mired in religious conservatism.

When it comes to dealing with religion, Western culture is very fractured. Liberal elites remain loyal to religion based cultural influences, which is IMO, counter to true liberal beliefs. Science and technology does not mix well with religious orthodoxy. Western conservatism embraces religious orthodoxy almost completely. This is a schism in Western culture that IMO has yet to be addressed.

I agree, China is not a communist nation any more, at least nothing akin to twentieth century communism. It is morphing into a completely new type of political, and perhaps economic, entity. I think this will continue have an growing influence on Western Culture, which is trying to be too much to be everything for everyone.

It needs to be considered, how invested is International Corporate Imperialism in the Middle East. The people of the U.S. and Europe are pretty much fed up with IC imperialism, and they have always been leary of the influence religions seems to maintain over the ICs. Combine this with IC corruption, debt, and tax burdens, it seems unlikely that the West will be interested in opposing any advances China makes towards Pakistan.

This puts China in a very unique position when it comes to Pakistan. Overall, I think India sees Islam as a huge problem. While India is a long ways from moving towards any stance against religion, the understanding of the "my enemies enemy is my ally" concept comes very much into play. Who will India see as its greatest threat? In the short term, Islam, in the long term, maybe China, but maybe not.

Meanwhile, a growing number of people in the U.S. see the ICs as their current, greatest threat, while many still want to believe government is the biggest problem, they are being force to come to grips with the reality that the ICs are clearly associated with the problem, and even the die hard capitalists are beginning to recognize that the ICs may in fact be the biggest problem. Here, the conflict between science and religion comes even more into play. There is a very strong bond between religion and capitalism, which IMO, strongly conflicts with true market economics. Throw in environmental conservation and its strong bond to science, which seems to be in direct conflict with IC goals, and that is the crux of the current divide in U.S. politics.

This is how I see the lines being drawn.

I'll just add a few grains of salt into this pot.

China has important assets in Afghanistan. Mining operation plus new railroad and highways. NATO is doing the policing of that area, for China. The New Silk Road is about to open in 2014. Through this region, China will be connected with Europe, all over middle Asia, where much of jobs will be outsourced. This is the main interest there.

Pakistan, especially north of the country, is tribal region with warmongering groups which only know to do that. Period. Pakistan is is going to be torn apart, it has it coming for a while now. We have come to this conclusion here on ATS in some earlier threads, a few years ago.

Lets consider the Silk Road, together with ADB...

www.adb.org...

beta.adb.org...

The thriving east-west trade that once spanned Central Eurasia along the famed Silk Road may soon be restored to its former glory thanks to growing transport and trade links being rolled out under the Central Asia Regional Economic Cooperation (CAREC) program.

During this time they have shed outdated trade policies and adopted new rules to increase commerce. In addition, about 4,000 km of road and 2,250 km of railway lines have been built or upgraded. Simplified and harmonized customs procedures have been put in place, and border posts have been improved to speed up and increase transnational flows of people and goods.

CAREC has also supported new electricity transmission lines and upgraded power plants.

Total investments to date have reached around $17 billion, spanning energy, trade and transport.

So, maybe instead of gluing our eyes on supposed military conflict, lets look at the other side of the show, behind the fog of war. There is a huge economic program going on, in the area of very cheap labor and underdeveloped industry - ideal for outsourcing. And Silk Road will bring cheap Chinese and such goods to the large area of central and western Asia and Europe. Silk Road is six-pronged road, covering all of the Asia north-west, towards Russia and Finland, and south to the Near East, Turkey and rest of the Europe.

www.carecprogram.org...

China's and West's interest here is to ensure safe transit through northern Pakistan and Afghanistan. NATO and China will cooperate here, though so far, China has kept low profile by not participating in War on Terror, so they keep good relationship with Muslims. Some in Pakistan may want to force China to openly confront Muslim extremists in order to make it more difficult for China to increase its export along this important route, and that will happen in northern Pakistan and Afghanistan, and maybe will be brought to Chinese territory too.

My prognosis for Pakistan is it will probably be torn apart.

Wow!

Everybody both pro and con

Good stuff

reply to post by SLAYER69

Link: One Year Ago
Ignore what I said in opening post, but read the links I attached.

Link: Roughly One Month Ago

Interesting on how things are developing.

reply to post by Section31






Thanks for the links.
It helps to get all perspectives

I can tell you this,if you are from North America,you must be aware of how soft our entire culture is at the moment,right?

I mean,when you see 50,000 Chineese or Korean troops march across your field of view you have to shudder as I do,because when I look around my country it is absolutely mind boggoling how the FEW people we seem to have that are under 50 yrs old ,we couldnt fight off our own Senior Citizens if they chose to take over!!Really!!!

America CANNOT rely on a HUGE draft as she has in the past,and as our draftable population has decreased proportionatly other countries have taken the opposite path and have burgeoning numbers of draftable people.

Chinas controlled tactical manipulation of their male population was an overt example of this dynamic. at work,they didnt do that for nuthin my friends,now they have over 30 million single men of fighting age that do not have available wives,they are naturally cured raging fighting machines already primed to action by mother natures drive that isnt being fulfilled.This is fact.

No one wants to be obliterated so yes the US is safe for now but when the bombs start flying between OTHER countries will be in a position to involve the us unilaterally.


China has so many resources and they are so disorganised,that they decieve the world,truth be told it is time to join all major countries under a global council and unilaterally join all of our armed forces and immediatly convert them to humanitarian missions,all it would take is five years and we could establish a global standard of living along with the first true democracy in mankinds history,a global one.


Until then dont worry,China will not engage anyone,it isnt quite time yet five or ten more years,then for sure they move.

reply to post by one4all


Well that sounds scary and all but what about this threads premise?

Anything premise related to the topic?

reply to post by SLAYER69


To tell you the truth, China has always been a country that put itself first and the rest of the world second (as a race), they have an agenda and that is to take the leadership when it comes to economic matters and to take the place of the US as leading role in the world, whatever China is doing with Pakistan so far is more strategically motivated than economically as Pakistan doesn't have anything that can help China in the economic way.

When it comes to dealing with terrorist, China doesn't follow any human right laws of any kind, their justice goes one way and that is their way, I am sure that when the time comes to thin out the so call terrorist in the region of trouble it will be not survivors to take to jail.

Remember that while US complain about China, China answer to nobody and follows no laws but their own, we have learn that from what is been going on with the relationships of China and the US.

When it comes to nuclear dangers if the Pakistan government falls into less than favored toward the west hands remember that China also have nuclear power, something that no other country until this day has been able to take away or sanction China for.

China is a country with a government that can not be trusted and we all know that, they are very secretive and china does what China wants and they answer to nobody.

Why is that? sometimes I wonder as to the answer to that.