US/China and Pakistan. No False Flag needed!

Originally posted by SLAYER69
I just wanted to thank everybody whop has contributed to a great discussion so far. Thanks for all the links and input.

I'll ignore the clue comments

As for India putting off border talks it could be in relation to Chinese naval vessels challenging Indian naval vessels who made a port call to Vietnam. The Chinese vessels demanded to know why Indian naval vessels were in their territorial waters.

With the resource wars starting up and with all the posturing going in in South East Asia, its almost like China is hoping to scare nations to just acquiesce. I think they may have underestimated the number of countries in that region who sought out closer militaryt / economic ties to the US.

China is torqued because they see the US as meddeling in affairs that arent theirs. The issue though is we do have a vested interest, as well as US commonwealths in the region. What I always find humerous is the big broohaha that is created anytime the US military goes somewhere.

People seem to completely and totally ignore the part where a foreign nation requests the presence of US military assets, whether it be navy / airforce or marines or logisitical support bases.

The showdown with China has been a long time coming. All a person has to do is yahoo / google search Chinese territorial claims and you will see headlines where country after country in the region is rejecting Chinese claims.

Territorial disputes - South China Sea

A quick over view of Maritime Claims -


China is not leaving much room, if any, for negotiated settlements. China also continues to misinteerpret the difference between territorial waters and eec waters.

Territorial waters (UN definition) is 10-12 nautical miles from shore.
EEZ (exclusive Economic Zone) is in general 200 miles from a nations coast. EEC are not considered territorial waters and freedom of navigation is protected. EEZ's that overlap are suppose to split the difference, which we can see fro the maritime claims above, thats not happening.

Now, Pakistan is basically split between two opposing worlds really. There are those in Pakistan [Mostly modern urban city/town dwellers] who would like to have closer ties with the West and outside world vs those who are [Mostly rural dwellers] the majority of whom are of a stricter Islamic belief.

That's not what I read. From what I've seen from Pakistani polls, most Pakistanis want to cut off relations with America and become a full ally with China.

So yeah they want the outside world, but not the west.

But yeah you're totally right, China is a fool to trust Pakistan. The ISI has been training, funding, giving intelligence to dozens of terrorists groups for decades. The ISI thinks it's a valuable asset ``against Pakistani enemies (India, America, etc)... they had quit a little in the last few years but since the ``Bin Laden`` raid, a lot of ISI went even more rogue and started give even more support to those groups.

For the support of groups in China, might be ``islamic brotherhood`` to help their brothers gain independence... which is alright by me... might be anger against China for not helping them enough against America... might not want control of Pakistan by China... or a combination of any of those.

reply to post by SLAYER69
thank you for the invite, As always your thread is outstanding, this part is the best, form your post i should point out it is Russia's as well from your post

So if any Extremist groups were able to gain control over some of Pakistan's Nuclear stockpile it would not just be a threat the US/West but potentially also China. There is common ground here which both sides need to set aside their differences and deal with Pakistan's lack of willingness to go after those who are fermenting the problems within their borders and get on the ball which would also help with the ongoing conflict in Afghanistan

The US/West and China have common ground here....

this is where I (just saying) would add Russia, for they have a stake in this too, Pakistan nuke falls in the wrong hands... Moscow gets mushroom cloud.
S&F good thread

Originally posted by Vitchilo
That's not what I read. From what I've seen from Pakistani polls, most Pakistanis want to cut off relations with America and become a full ally with China.

I appreciate the participation.
Do we have a link of said poll? I'd like to check it out..

But yeah you're totally right, China is a fool to trust Pakistan. The ISI has been training, funding, giving intelligence to dozens of terrorists groups for decades. The ISI thinks it's a valuable asset ``against Pakistani enemies (India, America, etc)... they had quit a little in the last few years but since the ``Bin Laden`` raid, a lot of ISI went even more rogue and started give even more support to those groups.

So in your opinion do you think China will be able to wrestle this beast of a situation to the ground unlike the West?

reply to post by SLAYER69

I appreciate the participation.
Do we have a link of said poll? I'd like to check it out..

That was a few months ago I read that... don't remember where. Sorry.

So in your opinion do you think China will be able to wrestle this beast of a situation to the ground unlike the West?

I think they will try to play the financial and arms card on Pakistan... and aim for special forces cooperation against militants in Pakistan, but I think it'll be like the US... some people inside the ISI will alert the groups beforehand and it won't lead to much. I think the China-Pakistan relation will soon be like the US-Pakistan relation.

the thing to keep in mind about the China Pakistan is the silk road trade, long standing between China Pakistan, the drug trade and arms trade go hand in hand, what better way for a nuke to go through, if you no your silk trade aka "silk road" it goes in to Iran as well. shocking how things turn out.
China Pakistan Iran .. has a ring to it, then add Afghanistan, and Syria... Sounds like a Bush/ Chaney/ Rumsfeld [pardon the expression] wet dream.

Originally posted by Vitchilo
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

I appreciate the participation.
Do we have a link of said poll? I'd like to check it out..

That was a few months ago I read that... don't remember where. Sorry.

I found this from 2010 from pewglobal.org

- Poll results - Pakistan and how they view the US / Taliban / Al Queida etc etc etc
Not sure if this is what you were referring to or not.

.................Less Support for U.S. Involvement
America’s overall image remains negative in Pakistan. Along with Turks and Egyptians,
Pakistanis give the U.S. its lowest ratings among the 22 nations included in the spring 2010 Pew
Global Attitudes survey – in all three countries, only 17% have a favorable view of the U.S.
Roughly six-in-ten (59%) Pakistanis describe the U.S. as an enemy, while just 11% say it is a
partner. And President Barack Obama is unpopular – only 8% of Pakistanis express confidence
that he will do the right thing in world affairs, his lowest rating among the 22 nations.


Moreover, support for U.S. involvement in the fight against extremists has waned over
the last year. Fewer Pakistanis now want the U.S. to provide financial and humanitarian aid to
areas where extremist groups operate, or for the U.S. to provide intelligence and logistical
support to Pakistani troops fighting extremists, although about half of those surveyed still favor
these efforts. There is also little support for U.S. drone strikes against extremist leaders – those
who are aware of these attacks generally say they are not necessary, and overwhelmingly they
believe the strikes kill too many civilians.


The U.S.-led war in neighboring Afghanistan is widely opposed by Pakistanis. Nearly
two-thirds (65%) want U.S. and NATO troops removed as soon as possible. And relatively few
Pakistanis believe the situation in Afghanistan could have a serious impact on their country: 25%
think it would be bad for Pakistan if the Taliban regained control of Afghanistan and 18% say it
would be good; 27% think it would not matter and 30% have no opinion..................

reply to post by Xcathdra




That's what I wanted to see. I appreciate the search I'm too tired to even Google. I'm out for the night.

Thanks again I'll resume in the AM

Instead of being sensational and stating "WAR! WAR! WAR!" be specific. What will China + Pakistan use to wage war? They have nothing unless they use nukes and why would they be suicidal right now as to use nukes on the US? What a load.

edit
You should have said they would use their UFOs against the US. Then noone would be able to contradict you without getting their response deleted. Since crap like this is bread and butter I guess it will happen to my response anyway.

Originally posted by OldCorp
Excellent thread Slayer.

I don't trust Musharraf either. He's a smarmy little bastard that was double dealing the entire time he was in office. The ISI has always supported the Taliban and never stopped, despite Bush's threat, "You either with us or with the terrorists." He paid lip service to the US while pocketing our money and letting the ISI pee on our legs.

The Chinese threat that an attack on Pakistan is an attack on China is fairly worrisome though. Seems like lately the commies - Russian and Chinese both - are growing some balls. They may very well get neutered if they keep it up.

edit on 11/25/2011 by OldCorp because: (no reason given)

You are incredibly ignorant. Explain to me how either Russia or China are Communist.

It seems to be a running trend in all your posts. You say something of value and then in the last paragraph completely disregard intelligence and start talking about Commie this and Commie that, more often than not about countries which are in no way Communist.

reply to post by NadaCambia


It is part of the US brainwashing program. Commies and muslims are to blame for everything. I heard it on Rush Limbaugh and CNN confirmed it so I knows it duh troof.

reply to post by lonegurkha


A little off topic but the fact that Pakistan takes our money and supports terrorists is well known now, so , either our government knows this and has something going on with them we dont know about(9/11 cia and terrorist link) or they really are that stupid. Either way they deserve to be overthrown by the people WHEN it happens.

reply to post by SLAYER69


As usual a great OP and thread Slayer.

I have only had time to read your OP and may give a more in depth response later when I've read the whole thread if I feel I have something to contribute.

At this point I'd just like to say that I have been saying for some time now that despite some of the predictable and expected public denouncements behind closed doors both China and Russia not only turn a blind eye but actually approve of the US / UK actions in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Both nations have growing domestic problems with Islamic extremists and seperatists.

As you rightly say, the whole region is a powder keg and future developments could have serious ramifications for every one of us.

Sympathisers of the Islamic extremists have infiltrated every aspect of Pakistan society including ISI, the Military and government officials and ministers and they have become most adept at playing the double game.
And it has to be remembered that whilst religious conviction is strong both corruption and extortion is rife throughout the region.

Pakistan has provided a safe haven for many extremists and allowed training camps to operate with apparent impunity at times.
These terrorists have spread out to all corners of the world and could strike anywhere killing numerous innocent civilians.

The Taliban has very close links with Pakistan and many believe that if they ever regain power in Afghanistan then eventually they will gain control of Pakistan too.
This isn't scaremongering, The Taliban enjoys a certain level of support within every section of Pakistan society and though may not have the support of the majority they have proven that this counts for little and that they can wield power whilst being supported by only a small minority.

Both Pakistan and India have a pathological hatred of each other that many who aren't from the region simply can't, or won't, understand.
If The Taliban, or sympathisers, ever gain control of Pakistan then they also gain access to their nuclear weaponry.
For world security this can not be allowed to happen.
Yes, the US may attempt to extract the weapons before they achieve this....but with all due respect, this would be no easy operation and certainly not guaranteed to succeed.
In such a scenario how would India react?
I suspect that serious military conflict would be almost certain.
The Taliban are undoubted religious fanatics and as such I think that given the prospect of defeat, India has a relatively powerful military and nuclear capability, they wouldn't hesitate to unleash Pakistans nuclear weapons on whoever it could.

And then we must ask how would China react to all this?
I don't think anyone can second guess their reaction - China plays very much it's own hand and the long game.

A lot of people criticise the US for what it is doing in the region.
We all know they have made far too many mistakes, and unfortunately continue to do so, but I think they are caught between a rock and a hard place and face an unenviable and thankless task - but one that in current circumstances is absolutely necessary.

I for one am grateful for what they and all the allied forces are doing in the region.

reply to post by SLAYER69


No worries I make the same mistake sometimes too.

It's an interesting development though. In my opinion it completely ties in with the theme of your thread. I don't know if it's purely coincidence or a subtle hint of increasingly strained relations between China and India but it's noteworthy.

I came across this while checking the morning news:

Pakistan stops NATO supplies after raid kills 28

(Reuters) - NATO helicopters attacked a military checkpoint in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, killing up to 28 troops and prompting Pakistan to shut vital supply routes for NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan, Pakistani officials said.

The attack is the worst single incident of its kind since Pakistan uneasily allied itself with Washington in the days immediately following the Sept 11, 2001 attacks on U.S. targets.

It says NATO helicopters but I'm sure Pakistan will blame the Americans. This comes as the U.S. is also publicly playing hardball with Pakistan's ally China last week.

Wen warns US on South China Sea dispute

China has warned "external forces" not to get involved in its maritime disputes with neighbouring countries over the South China Sea.

In comments apparently directed at the US, Premier Wen Jiabao said that the disputes should be resolved by "relevant sovereign states".

It sure seems that a lot of nuclear powers have been rattling sabers lately. Hopefully it's just tough talk.

Hmm

Very very interesting Slayer S&F for you

Bit confused right now TBH, seems to be alot of playing both sides going on in the world today,

Pakistan we all know they have been playing both sides, with the secret agenda of actually really sympathising with the Taliban and not the US, its not hard to see, the only reason they cooperate with the US/west is in fear of getting into a war they cannot win same with Russia & China & Iran, similar to the way Iran does with Israel

Its like Russia gives orders to Iran and then Iran goes and puppets its own groups to do the dirty work, China Does the same with Pakistan who then goes and Puppets its own little trouble makers...

So none of the blame comes back on Russia or China but they are the ones making orders, at least thats how i see it given what we know, we know what Iran does behind closed doors and we know what the Pakistani government do behind closed doors, we know Russia has close ties with both Iran & Syria, and China with Pakistan, and we know China & Russia are also close, you put all that together, and think the attacks are on the west, & Israel, at the end of the line, so to speak,

Deep down inside they all want to see the west crumble, there just biding there time IMO, moving little pieces one after the other,

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
I came across this while checking the morning news:

Pakistan stops NATO supplies after raid kills 28

(Reuters) - NATO helicopters attacked a military checkpoint in northwest Pakistan on Saturday, killing up to 28 troops and prompting Pakistan to shut vital supply routes for NATO troops fighting in Afghanistan, Pakistani officials said.

The attack is the worst single incident of its kind since Pakistan uneasily allied itself with Washington in the days immediately following the Sept 11, 2001 attacks on U.S. targets.

It's about time, they've been fighting the right enemies, the wrong way and in the wrong places since 2001. Pakistan should have been an open battlefield in the war from the beginning.

Time for Pakistan and China to show their true colors.

An attack on Pakistan is an attack on China eh?

Well, Pakistan has been attacked, anyone hearing sirens or seeing mushroom clouds yet?



Now they need to get in there and find the goods.

Originally posted by neo96
Seems to me if there was going to be a "false flag" against Pakistan already would have happened when we went after Bin Laden.

No action will be taken agianst China because we buy and borrow their junk for some reason people love being "The boy who cried wolf" that's not to say something is going to happened within the next 10 to 20 years US and China will be at war or have a "limited" conflict.

The best scenario would be a new "Cold War" with China but that will never happen as long as our economies are tied together.

U.S. Declares Cold War With China

www.humanevents.com...

reply to post by Fractured.Facade


I was kind of groggy from just waking up when I posted that news so I failed to make the link between this attack and China previously claiming an attack on Pakistan is an attack on them. I'm curious as to what China's response will be.

This might be the U.S. and NATO calling their bluff. Or it could just be the usual border intrusion that regularly happens. This could be nothing more than coincidence. We shall see...

reply to post by Corruption Exposed


Pakistan, particularly their military and ISI have been aiding Al Qaeda and the Taliban all along.

Any real victory in this war to "bring justice to those responsible" and those aiding or sponsoring terrorists, should have had Pakistan targeted all along.

But we were conveniently drawn into another war in Iraq.... The wrong war, as well as being drawn into Syria and Iran are now.

It's time to finish this war, the right way, and bring all of the unnecessary forces home.

IMO