US/China and Pakistan. No False Flag needed!

Originally posted by Fractured.Facade

But it is a great get out of jail free card for China IF Pakistani nukes end up in the hands of extremists and are detonated on strategic western targets.

You might just be right.

Its a scary thought,actually.

I would also think that China would love to shore up its own extremist problem it has,by placing its "Trojan Horse" inside of Pakistan.Political and Religious Ideologies aside of course......................

China doesn't particularly want the U.S. as their ally, but they definitely want us to stop being Pakistan's. A good friend and coworker of mine, who happens to be a Pakistani Muslim, goes on and on about how Pakistan's government is corrupt, and are always antagonizing China. He's very afraid of a two-pronged attack by China and India. This is gonna be something big.

/TOA

Originally posted by The Old American
China doesn't particularly want the U.S. as their ally, but they definitely want us to stop being Pakistan's. A good friend and coworker of mine, who happens to be a Pakistani Muslim, goes on and on about how Pakistan's government is corrupt, and are always antagonizing China. He's very afraid of a two-pronged attack by China and India. This is gonna be something big.

/TOA

Lets not forget the Sino-Indian War...............

Sovereignty issues along ALL country's borders in that region.

If war breaks out in the Middle East,you will see country's taking advantage of it. MHO

Originally posted by sonnny1
Its one story to be very close neighbors with Pakistan,but having Chinese bases in Pakistan?

It would be akin to having bases in Mexico. For what need ?

In fact, it was in the aftermath of the May 2 US raid which killed al-Qaeda chief Osama bin Laden in his Abbottabad hideout that Islamabad started playing its China card aggressively, perhaps to caution Washington against pushing it too hard. Shortly after the Abbottabad raid, Pakistani Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gillani traveled to Beijing

China seeks military bases in Pakistan

Think Pakistan is playing both sides of the sword..........

yep everyone keeps forgetting only amerika can have military bases all over the world..
what were those silly chinese thinking ...

Originally posted by Expat888


yep everyone keeps forgetting only amerika can have military bases all over the world..
what were those silly chinese thinking ...

How many military bases do we have in Canada and Mexico?

Food for thought.

The Pakistani nuke situation is the powder keg. One of those falls into the hands of extremists operating in Pakistan or extremists in western China and then we have a serious problem. Pakistan has some serious house cleaning to do. If they cannot reasonably address the matter on their own? Then an outside force must intervene for the stability of the region and more or less the world? Personally, I don't care who does it. You name it China, the US, or even India could take the initiative for all I care. Better yet, they can join up. A loose nuke falling into the hands of extremists is a very real possibility?

As far as the ISI is concerned, that matter needs to be analyzed with a fine tooth comb, because they are like an entity within itself posing as a legitimate government agency. There has been widespread allegations of assistance being offered by this group to extremist groups for years. Then I have heard about high level military personnel having sympathies with the extremists in Pakistan as well. Very easy for someone from the military or even the ISI to slip a nuke to an extremist, and then all hell will break loose.

The civilian government in Islamabad is like a prisoner in its own country and cannot function as a normal centralized government because of the serious loyalty issues among members of its intelligence apparatus and military. The true power is encompassed in those two groups, and the civilian government has to play politics with them. The President of Pakistan whether it is Musharraf or anyone is really immaterial, because they are in no position of any real power because of the reasons I mentioned earlier. The political situation in Pakistan is like Frankenstein's monster and a serious approach needs to be taken by members of the international community. Great thread Slayer, and just another potential nightmare that can be added to the long list presently affecting the world at the moment.

reply to post by SLAYER69


After reading your thread I decided to look into a few things in this region. Since you have pointed out the Pakistani nuclear arsenal and it's vulnerability it made me think about it's neighbor India, which also borders China.

India and Pakistan have never been best of friends and from what I can tell China sees India as a competitor for various reasons so they're not very friendly either.

I'm not sure if any of you have seen this but China and India had some border talks lined up but they have been postponed without any real explanation.

India, China border talks put off at last minute

India and China raised diplomatic eyebrows on Friday by putting off the high-level meeting on the border issue scheduled to take place in New Delhi on Monday, offering reporters only a cryptic explanation that dates for their next round of border talks “have yet to be decided.”

The unexpected postponement comes exactly a week after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh met Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao in Indonesia.

I'm not sure exactly how this fits, but I can't help and think that if this powder keg were to ignite India would most likely get involved. My guess is that they would side with the Western powers. India and Pakistan having disputed borders also complicates things.

It strikes me that Pakistan wants to be viewed as a major nation and not some backwater country. First playing games with the US and know China. Problem is they are really small potato's and could have their backroom deals doom them. The US is not willing to irritate the UN and so tip toes around the issue. China on the other hand will eventually tire of the BS and put them in their place. Problem is that place most likely would be as part of China.

Hmm, tough to call which side could cause the most damage if something were to happen.

See, while China's economy is seemingly the strongest in the world right now, they're probably willing to spend a lot just to keep that area safe or perhaps fully under their control, eradicating who they see as the enemy in the process.

They really need to tread carefully because no matter what they do, the potential for serious threat and action is always a possibility.

Thanks for posting and it makes a change from the recent influx of crap threads posted in the last month or so.

Pakistan is China's freeway into the Middle East. Mainly Iran. If War with Iran starts, Red China will need Pakistans air space to come to their rescue. Forget Afganistan's, We control that. This the real reason we have given so much money to Pakistan. ~SheopleNation

I think somebody should tell China they are wasting their time cooperating with Pakistan unless...

This is of course a way China can gain access to the territory so as to have a larger stake in Central Asia where the natural resources are in play. The New Great Game eh??

China, Pakistan Boost Anti-Terror Cooperation

HELUM, Pakistan -- The Pakistani and Chinese attack choppers swoop low across the valley, strafing a mock terrorist hideout and a bomb-making factory. Then a joint commando team storms the camp -- to the gentle applause of top brass from both nations watching from the stands.

The fact that such a drill is needed reflects a new concern troubling their long-standing alliance: Chinese militants along the Afghan border allegedly aiding separatism in China and plotting terrorist attacks there

Read more: www.foxnews.com...

The Middle East is running out of oil, there isn't much left there to fight over.

It is likely that by the end of the decade many current oil exporters may become importers. I see any Chinese investment in Pakistan, it is only as a thorn in the side of U.S. corporate interests.

Russia is building up over a fight for Arctic oil. Arctic weather gear is going to become a big commodity as that conflict heats up.

reply to post by poet1b


I'm not sure if you've seen this thread or not?
The Americas, Not the Middle East, Will Be the World Capital of Energy

For half a century, the global energy supply's center of gravity has been the Middle East. This fact has had self-evidently enormous implications for the world we live in -- and it's about to change.

By the 2020s, the capital of energy will likely have shifted back to the Western Hemisphere, where it was prior to the ascendancy of Middle Eastern megasuppliers such as Saudi Arabia and Kuwait in the 1960s. The reasons for this shift are partly technological and partly political. Geologists have long known that the Americas are home to plentiful hydrocarbons trapped in hard-to-reach offshore

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/11b811ae98d0.jpg[/atsimg]

But since the early 2000s, the energy industry has largely solved that problem. With the help of horizontal drilling and other innovations, shale gas production in the United States has skyrocketed from virtually nothing to 15 to 20 percent of the U.S. natural gas supply in less than a decade. By 2040, it could account for more than half of it. This tremendous change in volume has turned the conversation in the U.S. natural gas industry on its head; where Americans once fretted about meeting the country's natural gas needs, they now worry about finding potential buyers for the country's surplus.

Meanwhile, onshore oil production in the United States, condemned to predictions of inexorable decline by analysts for two decades, is about to stage an unexpected comeback. Oil production from shale rock, a technically complex process of squeezing hydrocarbons from sedimentary deposits, is just beginning. But analysts are predicting production of as much as 1.5 million barrels a day in the next few years from resources beneath the Great Plains and Texas alone -- the equivalent of 8 percent of current U.S. oil consumption. The development raises the question of what else the U.S. energy industry might accomplish if prices remain high and technology continues to advance. Rising recovery rates from old wells, for example, could also stem previous declines. On top of all this, analysts expect an additional 1 to 2 million barrels a day from the Gulf of Mexico now that drilling is resuming. Peak oil? Not anytime soon.

Great thread my friend!

You know, China and Pakistan are very strange bedfellows indeed. China has called Pakistan, " there Israel ".
China has also conducted military operations with Pakistan and let's not forget how close China and Pakistan were during the aftermath of the OBL killing.

One uniting factor that we can not forget, many of these country will often overlook such issues with one another based on the current geopolitical stage. Quite often we will see such nations unit simply as a means to counter the US.

As for the current unrest in China, I only see it escalating as the divisions in there socal classes continue to grow. China also has many racial division in abbition to there social division, great way to seed many more internal, reginal, conflicts.

I would expect to see Pakistan do all that it can to keep there friend China happy. As for China, I see them keeping there friends in Pakistan close at hand, to form a counter balance to the US presence in the region.

Thanks for the heads up. Great post and thanks for the invite.

Not sure what I can add, but thought those interested might find the PDF (linked below) interesting even though last updated in 2001. It is far to much to begin to paste meaningful portions and needs to be read through. Although 15 pages it's a quick read and lays out the relationships leading up to today.

I'll just post the "Abstract" and the conclusion from the document.

The link is to a Google search that should show the download link at the top to the document from the CERI archives.

The uncertain triangle: India, China and Pakistan.

Abstract
The uncertain relationship between India, Pakistan and China is not just due to the new
overt nuclearisation of this sensitive triangle, structured around the highly volatile
Kashmir. The legacy of distrust and conflict, the unresolved border issues, and the
plurality of perceptions and options considered by decision-makers in each country add
to the complexity of the regional scenario. The asymmetry paradigm, which favors
China over India and India over Pakistan, offers certainly a clue to the triangular
configuration, particularly to its strategic dimension. But the new emphasis given by
China and more recently by India to an economic policy more open to international
trade, as well as the search for a higher status not only in Asia but in the emerging world
order expected to be multipolar draw a new dividing line. On one side, China and India
redefine their foreign policy with more emphasis on real-politik than on ideology. They
search for a balance between multiple partners (USA and Russia, to start with, but also
diverse regional organizations). They know that peace —which does not preclude
suspicions, deliberate ambiguities and military might— serve their competing
ambitions. On the other side Pakistan seems stuck in the old regional quagmire. The
priority it gives to Kashmir, and the support it offers to jehad and to the Taliban regime
do not enhance an international status already weakened by structural political and
economical challenges. China and India have reformed themselves to a point, while
projecting strongly their national specificity. Some similarly rethinking seems to emerge
slowly in Pakistan. It it were to be confirmed, the search for regional accommodation
and for more balanced triangular relations would definitely help South Asia to play a
role matching more its demographic size.

To sum up, the future relationship between the two Asian giants might well
confirm the analysis of J.N. Dixit, the Indian Foreign Secretary who assisted Premier
Narasimha Rao and President Venkataraman in their historic visits to China in the early
nineties: ‘’At most, India and China could be friends whose relations would be based
upon practicability and convergence of mutual interests tempered by appropriate
reticence and objectivity about each other’s interests, security perceptions and economic
requirements’’34. If India-Pakistan difficult relationship were to improve, this carefully
realistic assessment could be validated as well. That would be short from warmth, but
very positive. It would help India and Pakistan to get out of their old quagmire, and
would give South Asia a new potential, more in tune with its one billion plus population
and the on-going construction of a new world order. But on the extended South Asian
chessboard, movements are not necessarily oriented to this direction.

reply to post by SLAYER69


Pakistan seems to like to play on both sides of the street. The problem with that is its possible to get hit by traffic from both directions. Pakistani ISI related activities in China aside, its in the interest of China to maintain and improve relations with Pakistan.

Pakistan is the lesser of the regional evils in that part of the world for China. Indian and China have fought 3 wars / border wars and there is no sign their relations are going to improve anytime soon. China has built large scale training grounds that mimic the Indian side of the border and India has created and deployed essentially a new military corp to the border with China.

With the uptick in Chinese territorial claims / disputes in the East, they cant afford to have problems in the west, at least for the time being. Everyone knows about the issues between Pakistan and India over Kashmir. What most people dont realize is China also controls part of Kashmir, however India and Pakistan tend to ignore that portion.

If Pakistan destablilizes I can see China and India setting their differences aside, along with the US, to secure the nuclear weapons. China and India would both be targets for religious extremists who have access to nuclear weapons.

Pakistan has recently ceded parts of Kashmir to China and in return China is upgrading infrastructure in the area to support increased trade relations.

Long story short - China is currently prioritized the Asian region as their primary focus since it has the resources China will need as they grow. China will eventually look West towards Pakistan and some former soviet republics, however I dont see that occuring until they secure the East resources base.

Any military confrontation in this area will most likely spill into a regional war. Russia is the wild card in all of this. They seem to be ever present in all issues, yet have managed to keep below the radar. Russia and China have closer ties now than ever before, however thats only because of current events. In the long run China will look towards Siberia as another resources base (even though China renounced claims to parts of that territory, its only a matter of time before they decide they want it again).

Russia, right now, is in no shape to challenge China directly. They do so with the US and Europe simply because its always occured. Eventually Russia is going to be forced to chose a side, and when one looks at all the info, siding with China is going to be an eventual cofrontation.

With all of the shifting relations between countries, which is to say countries are being forced to choose between the lesser of evils, all its going to take is one incident to set a chain of events into motion that cant be stopped.

Could "follow the money" come into play here?

India ranks below China, Pakistan in Global Hunger Index.

NEW DELHI: India ranked way below its South Asian neighbours Pakistan, Sri Lanka and China in the global hunger index 2011 released by the International Food Policy and Research Institute.

I think hunger is going to shortly become a huge issue in world stability. As the Western World turns more and more towards a Nanny State it has an often unmentioned negative influence on the rest of the world. As energy "necessarily skyrockets" it's first and most important victim will be food and in turn the weakest economic powers ability to feed themselves.

Food is also the best means to control a population or get what you want from neighbors.

We see way to much hype about China's power. China has huge insurmountable problems. Half of their people live on under $2 per day and they are facing water and therefore food shortages they cannot deal with in country. Add to that the fact the West stops buying, China's Bubble bursts almost overnight. I'm sure that is not lost on China's leaders.

Well with Pakistan and China becoming Buddy Buddy I wonder if India will attempt closer ties with the West?

Originally posted by Corruption Exposed
reply to post by SLAYER69

 

After reading your thread I decided to look into a few things in this region. Since you have pointed out the Pakistani nuclear arsenal and it's vulnerability it made me think about it's neighbor India, which also borders China.

India and Pakistan have never been best of friends and from what I can tell China sees India as a competitor for various reasons so they're not very friendly either.

I'm not sure if any of you have seen this but China and India had some border talks lined up but they have been postponed without any real explanation.

India, China border talks put off at last minute

India and China raised diplomatic eyebrows on Friday by putting off the high-level meeting on the border issue scheduled to take place in New Delhi on Monday, offering reporters only a cryptic explanation that dates for their next round of border talks “have yet to be decided.”

The unexpected postponement comes exactly a week after Prime Minister Manmohan Singh met Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao in Indonesia.

I'm not sure exactly how this fits, but I can't help and think that if this powder keg were to ignite India would most likely get involved. My guess is that they would side with the Western powers. India and Pakistan having disputed borders also complicates things.

india hates pakistan more than it hates china.
india would love to see pakistan destroyed .. pakistan hates india and would love to see them destroyed. Been bad blood and fighting between those two for centuries.

reply to post by SLAYER69


India and China have the luxury of not needing to give a damn about their people.

India may openly be moving toward stronger ties with the west, but they are more inclined to make a covert alliance with Russia. They share many common goals.

Pakistan and China becoming?

No, they have been for a very long time.

In my opinion, of course.