Police officer pepper-sprays seated, non-violent students at UC Davis

I think there are always two sides to the coin, well for every issue.

I have always been in support for OWS right to protest! Their rights were wronged here. Other incidents weren't this one was.

the officers might get suspended and lose their jobs, however the protesters were asked by the police to leave. They were warned. The police did end up retreating and in fact helped the pepper sprayed students. What else would you want the police do? I don't think they should have used pepper spray, but in other states they would have used guns.

I also think the video is being taken out of context by the media and internet. It doesn't show the before and after.

It's actually a very peaceful incident taken widely out of context by everyone. Just like you say, each crime. rape, and act of violence does not represent the OWS as a whole, this does not represent the police as a whole. Hell, the guy was paid (salary) with private union University funds!

We should be analyzing each individual crime that OWS and the Police have committed in these protests, I think you'll find that OWS has broken the law more times than police. Police have been relatively respectful in the two month long process. But as you say, the protesters like to question authority. It's more like they don't listen at all! They don't even try to open a dialogue with the police. Try to negotiate with them.

However, this is interfering with the protesters rights to protest peacefully and from the videos they indeed were. There's always two sides to the coin.

So when a police officer tells you, you got a ticket for speeding, do you continue do speed? Or even worse, speed away from them?

If a police tells you, you are blocking a doorway to an entrance of a building do you move? Or refuse to move? I would think most people would Peacefully get out of the way, and obey the law! They could have always moved ten feet away from the cops... Then, cops couldn't have done anything about it.

Protesters should have asked police why they had to leave. That is my stand right now. If the policeman explained the law in a bias way towards the protesters then we might have had a clearer view of his reasoning behind using pepper spray.

Protesting =/= above the law.
Illegal enforcement of laws =/= above the law.

Originally posted by macman

Originally posted by SheeplFlavoredAgain
reply to post by macman

 

I think they would be proud of those kids and wonder why the rest of us are letting this happen or even saying it is right to happen, and good on the police. I see your point. I always teach my own kid that actions have consequences. I do believe in law and order. But I also now realize we've let too many laws get on the books that have eaten away our most fundamemtal and basic rights. I know from having my middle aged harmless law abiding housewife self harassed by police for just walking my dog in a neighborhood where my olive toned skin looked out of place, that we really don't have any rights at all if a policeman tells us we don't. There's a little numbered law somewhere we can be cited in violation thereof.

edit on 20-11-2011 by SheeplFlavoredAgain because: Typo

I agree.
I am not in any way suggesting that people do or don't protest. Their right to peaceably assemble.
Lawful order to disperse is just that.
If you wish to go against the machine, do not cry when it does what it is there to do.

i agree, they shouldn't cry when attacked for being peaceful. they should arm themselves and fight back.. Violence begats violence. And these thugs have got some karma coming I hope. When the US people have had enough of being stamped on, it will happen. In the UK I hope it happens too, and anywhere where the police think they have a right to act like this. Where they think they have a right to rule over people, instead of working to help them.

I truly hope people fight back properly, and soon. The cops are heavily out numbered, and would be in a s# storm if the people turned on them. I look forward to the day that several hundred pigs are chased off down the street by the people, weilding picth forks and maybe a shotgon or 3000.

Originally posted by macman


We are not talking about wrong. We are talking about legal, in the US.
Nazi Germany has nothing to do with this.
If you wish to apply this, please look to who, at the end of the day, is in charge of the laws written and policy approvals to the area. I believe this area to be a Democratic stronghold.

Democratic, as in, You get Huey, Dewey, and sometimes Louie to choose from. News flash: they are ALL nephews of Uncle Scrooge (please watch an old Scrooge McDuck cartoon if this makes no sense to you). You think their loyalties lie with You? Guess again.

Your beliefs betray you as one who has yet to discover where the real power in this country lay. It is with the Bankers, not with the People. JFK was in Dallas to do exactly what that day (confer with the board of his new, competing central bank)? The entire Polish government crashed to their deaths a couple of years ago in ONE PLANE? This is what happens when you oppose the zionist megalomaniacs known as the International Bankers. IMF, World Bank, Federal Reserve. You need know no other name in power brokerage. There are more reasons than meet the eye, that the President is always surrounded by Israeli advisors. Gog and Magog have risen, in the last place you would look: the Knesset.

reply to post by Acidtastic


Once the protest becomes violent, it is now a riot.
Doom on those that go toe to toe with police.

The place to fight a cop is in the court room. Not out on the street.


But, like I stated when this OWS crap all started, Marshal Law is just down the path for the places that turn violent.

reply to post by seamus


While I agree with the first half, buying into the second is a hard thing to pitch to me.

To suggest that one side control the other, as apposed to hands washing each other, is just a little too far fetched for me.

At the end of the day, Govt reigns supreme and the dollar has corrupted the Govt.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Acidtastic

 

Once the protest becomes violent, it is now a riot.
Doom on those that go toe to toe with police.

The place to fight a cop is in the court room. Not out on the street.


But, like I stated when this OWS crap all started, Marshal Law is just down the path for the places that turn violent.

how can you fight the law with the law? They look after their own, no cop would get done for beating protesters. It'd be another whitewash. The corruption in the legal system is rife and institutionalised. It's kinda cute that you think you could win against a cop in court. Screw the cops, they deserve what's coming to them. They've had it their jackboot way for far too long, trying to vilify as much of the population as they can for monetary gain. If they haven't got the brains to see that what they are being asked to do is wrong, then I will have no sympathy when they start being lynched.

Originally posted by Acidtastic

Originally posted by macman
I agree.
I am not in any way suggesting that people do or don't protest. Their right to peaceably assemble.
Lawful order to disperse is just that.

To Macman: An order coming from a mercenary code-enforcement officer is not to be construed as Lawful, unless it is in accordance with substantive law. All these goons have on their side is code, statute, and ordinance, and none of those are Law.

i agree, they shouldn't cry when attacked for being peaceful. they should arm themselves and fight back.. Violence begats violence. And these thugs have got some karma coming I hope. When the US people have had enough of being stamped on, it will happen. In the UK I hope it happens too, and anywhere where the police think they have a right to act like this. Where they think they have a right to rule over people, instead of working to help them.

Karma, as you put it, is coming... to the whole system. But more violence will only beget more violence. I have found that the most effective way to deal with my enemies is to let the Universe do it for me. They can't escape justice unless I take justice into my own hands. For example, the guy who fired me from my job unjustly, lost his wife 3 weeks later; she left him for a young stud. Then another 6 weeks later lost HIS job. That would probably not have happened if I had gone and slashed his tires. Karma is very powerful toward the unenlightened.

I truly hope people fight back properly, and soon. The cops are heavily out numbered, and would be in a s# storm if the people turned on them. I look forward to the day that several hundred pigs are chased off down the street by the people, weilding picth forks and maybe a shotgon or 3000.

There is no army on earth so powerful as an idea whose time has come. - Victor Hugo

Originally posted by Acidtastic
how can you fight the law with the law? They look after their own, no cop would get done for beating protesters. It'd be another whitewash. The corruption in the legal system is rife and institutionalised. It's kinda cute that you think you could win against a cop in court.

You don't fight the law with the law, you fight the Corporation with THE LAW. Once you have fired your government, you are in a position to write them up a bill for every way in which they directly impede your freedom. Then, when they put that bill in the "round file", you can jank them for dishonor, using Notary Witness process and get the Sheriff and go seize some assets. I haven't gotten that far yet, as they have not directly impeded my freedom for a long, long time. However, I have 1000 dollars in "civil infractions" that I just dismissed for cause to the District Attorney. We'll see if they come try to throw me in jail for that. No way in hell they are getting me in court unless they physically drag me. Obedience implies consent to be governed, and I have officially revoked consent (see the link in my sig).

Screw the cops, they deserve what's coming to them. They've had it their jackboot way for far too long, trying to vilify as much of the population as they can for monetary gain. If they haven't got the brains to see that what they are being asked to do is wrong, then I will have no sympathy when they start being lynched.

edit on 20/11/2011 by Acidtastic because: (no reason given)

I do agree with you on this one. I just hope the good cops don't get stuff taken out on them, because there are good cops, who are really trying to serve their fellow man.

Originally posted by Acidtastic

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Acidtastic

 

Once the protest becomes violent, it is now a riot.
Doom on those that go toe to toe with police.

The place to fight a cop is in the court room. Not out on the street.


But, like I stated when this OWS crap all started, Marshal Law is just down the path for the places that turn violent.

how can you fight the law with the law? They look after their own, no cop would get done for beating protesters. It'd be another whitewash. The corruption in the legal system is rife and institutionalised. It's kinda cute that you think you could win against a cop in court. Screw the cops, they deserve what's coming to them. They've had it their jackboot way for far too long, trying to vilify as much of the population as they can for monetary gain. If they haven't got the brains to see that what they are being asked to do is wrong, then I will have no sympathy when they start being lynched.

edit on 20/11/2011 by Acidtastic because: (no reason given)

Ok, buzz words used by OWS, Socialists groups and the like.
Past that, when you go toe to toe with the cops, be prepared for a thumping

reply to post by seamus


Oh come on.
Lawful is lawful, until deemed as not lawful and in reverse.
No matter how many adjectives are used, it is still the law currently.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by seamus

 

While I agree with the first half, buying into the second is a hard thing to pitch to me.

You have by now, no doubt, guessed that I'm not pitching anything. I am sharing information. I only do so when I feel there are some present who will benefit from it, i.e. who are ready for it. You are not. That's fine. It is often those playing the role of the unknowing who bring up the best questions, and consequently, the most valuable answers.

To suggest that one side control the other, as apposed to hands washing each other, is just a little too far fetched for me.

Then please explain to me how Obama has spent more on war than GW Bush did, when many people voted for him to get out of war?

At the end of the day, Govt reigns supreme and the dollar has corrupted the Govt.

No, it's the nature of government to become more and more corrupt. The only answer IMO is self-responsibility for all who can handle that, and a concentration camp (arbeit macht frei) for the rest. But modern society was invented in order to sublimate people's sense of responsibility into a cloud of patriotic feelings and guilt-driven behavioral patterns that include marriage, breeding, and obedience to whatever claims to be "the law". The government does NOT reign supreme, they just think they do, from long-standing habit of getting whatever they want. Those days are over.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by seamus

 

Oh come on.
Lawful is lawful, until deemed as not lawful and in reverse.
No matter how many adjectives are used, it is still the law currently.

Substantive law is not subject to 'deeming'. No one can deem Law as not-law, and no one can deem unlawful activities into lawfulness. You're talking about imagination, not reality. Color of law does not equate to law.

Originally posted by seamus

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by seamus

 

Oh come on.
Lawful is lawful, until deemed as not lawful and in reverse.
No matter how many adjectives are used, it is still the law currently.

Substantive law is not subject to 'deeming'. No one can deem Law as not-law, and no one can deem unlawful activities into lawfulness. You're talking about imagination, not reality. Color of law does not equate to law.

Ok, so if working on the premise that in reality, the law is the law.
Then, the law is the law.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

Pepper Spray is used for non compliance.
Should the officer then go "Hands On" and risk a physical confrontation with a protester, which 99% of the time ends poorly for said protester?

Again, I restate, OC Spray is for "active resistance" while compliance holds and "hands on" should be used for "passive resistance". You tell me, were the group of students actively resisting or just passively resisting by sitting there? If they tried to go hands on and it failed due to active resistance, they would have easily been able to either overpower the protestors who were already on the ground due to the sheer number of officers there, OR, they could have disengaged and then moved to OC Spray due to the resistance becoming active.

Just sitting there refusing to leave is NOT active resistance, period. Pulling away from an officer or fighting with an officer, etc, is active resistance.

reply to post by FrenchOsage

Our economic system is not viable...it cannot be sustained. It was designed to make a very few very rich...damn the rest.

Short, sweet and excellent response...............this is what the sleeping beauties in the Matrix refuse to realize.

reply to post by Laokin

This mentality that because someone broke the law in a non violent non physically threatening way so it's okay for the law to violate them, often in a violent manner, is a mentality of absurdly low intelligence.

I get the gist that many people on ATS that are in support of violent means to uphold a nonviolent compliance is okay are either brain washed sheep, down right ignorant or psychopathic.

Excellent response! Hopefully you've woken up a few more from the Matrix.

Originally posted by TSearchX

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by GogoVicMorrow

 

Pepper Spray is used for non compliance.
Should the officer then go "Hands On" and risk a physical confrontation with a protester, which 99% of the time ends poorly for said protester?

Again, I restate, OC Spray is for "active resistance" while compliance holds and "hands on" should be used for "passive resistance". You tell me, were the group of students actively resisting or just passively resisting by sitting there? If they tried to go hands on and it failed due to active resistance, they would have easily been able to either overpower the protestors who were already on the ground due to the sheer number of officers there, OR, they could have disengaged and then moved to OC Spray due to the resistance becoming active.

Just sitting there refusing to leave is NOT active resistance, period. Pulling away from an officer or fighting with an officer, etc, is active resistance.

Nice use of nuanced semantics.
No matter how much you mirco term one thing or another, it is non compliance.

It is the approved use of force model.

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Riffrafter

 

Yes, it does matter.
Order of disperse was given.

The LEOs decided not to go hands on with people that out number them.

Emphasis mine.

I find it a bit odd that LE wasn't prepared to be out numbered. I can't believe campus officials didn't give LE an estimation of numbers involved. If hands on is not advised when out numbered then why not step back and wait for backup? There was no violence, until LE showed up, there was absolutely no immediate threat.

Your statement really doesn't help LE's side. I'm hoping some of them were equally appalled at what was happening. Imo LEOs were put at risk if too few were sent. Most here agree hands on arrests would've been the right thing to do. If a small force feels they can't do their job without resorting to extreme measures then I would say that's LE's failure and not a valid excuse.

Originally posted by Morningglory

Originally posted by macman
reply to post by Riffrafter

 

Yes, it does matter.
Order of disperse was given.

The LEOs decided not to go hands on with people that out number them.

Emphasis mine.

I find it a bit odd that LE wasn't prepared to be out numbered. I can't believe campus officials didn't give LE an estimation of numbers involved. If hands on is not advised when out numbered then why not step back and wait for backup? There was no violence, until LE showed up, there was absolutely no immediate threat.

Your statement really doesn't help LE's side. I'm hoping some of them were equally appalled at what was happening. Imo LEOs were put at risk if too few were sent. Most here agree hands on arrests would've been the right thing to do. If a small force feels they can't do their job without resorting to extreme measures then I would say that's LE's failure and not a valid excuse.

The response, in numbers, for LEO is not capable to equal the crowd being responded to.
That is why the City/Town/Campus authorities have given the Police the ability to use tactics, force and everything else.

If one does not like the response, instead of killing the messenger, why not go after those that control the law?
I know why, it is easier and more convenient to go after the cop, following the Use of Force, then going after the Democrat stronghold People in power.

In addition to your comment that most here agree.
Armchair Police and ATS members making judgements after watching videos is not really the definition of a deciding base.

I love the discussions here on ATS, but it seems that its alot of people sitting behind a computer trying to analyze situations that no one really has any control over. Come'on people, the police will continue to do what ever they want because just as our politicians the system is unfairly rigged in their favor. Those young men and women may have been given the order to move, but they certainly didnt need a can of police grade mace emptied onto their faces from two feet away. The answer to this whole situation is clear as day, but for some reason the population is blind to it!!!! Occam's Razor, look it up. We, the ones behind the computers should start helping organize this movement because thats when TPTB would *&*t their pants! But it seems everyone has an opinion, and you know what they say, opinions are like a**h****, everyones got one!