The Tide is Turning

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters


Do you guys feel that, the Arab spring and these protests here in North America and Europe, is an indication that the new generation is going to be more involved?

I feel that the Arab Spring has hurt those country's looking for change. The violence is still there,and those that wanted "change",have military Governments,or once called terrorists,running their Governments. Even worse I would say. I dont want violent revolution,I want change.

Our country needs change,but even better................................. Jobs.

At OWS rally I went to,EVERYONE I spoke to,wanted them. The youth are begging for them.

phishyblankwaters,

Please forgive my confusion, but it seems that I share it with many posters.

Lets just stop and reflect on what these people are TRYING to do.

But you see, I don't think anyone knows what they are trying to do. Get legislation passed? Elect candidates? Persuade the Supreme Court to reverse some decisions?

Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

Well, it's primarily camping out in places they're not supposed to be camping out in, innit? What are they actually doing? Blocking traffic, handing out fliers, creating unsanitary conditions, getting on the news. That's about it, really.

They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right.

I don't know where this talk about "fighting" is coming from. Seems that they can avoid any real trouble by not acting like idiots.

If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

Where to start? Is this a true movement of the population? Doesn't seem like it. Can't change the system? Hardly, that's what elections are for. And if you say "We're the true voice of the people, but we can't change the system, so we'll tear it down," then you sound like a revolutionary mob.

Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?

Back to "fighting?" Do you want a fight? Where is this fighting idea coming from? You must use it a half dozen times at least.
Do you want me to respect everyone who tries to do something? Sorry, that waters down the meaning of the word "respect" to near meaninglessness. WHAT that person is trying to do goes into the calculation of whether it deserves respect.

Charles1952

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters

I clearly said this isn't about OWS and their motives or actions, it's a reflection on the fact that, in 2011, people of all walks of life are willing to march and fight for what they think is right.

I see what you're doing here, but try to remeber some real protests. How about the civil rights movement? The numbered in the millions, not tens of thousands. Sure, OWS might be diverse, but in reality its a bunch of people camping.

This is it. close the thread mods, it's impossible to have an objective discussion about anything with people continually derailing and going off topic.

Like the people who stayed on topic, but had stances or opinions you didn't agree with? I thought you wanted an objective discussion?

You win. I submit. I will spend the rest of my time lurking at ATS, possibly posting comments here and there, but congratulations, you've managed to push another user away from ATS.

Translation: "I didn't get what I want, so I quit." You could always occupy ats.

And yes, I did alert the mods to the off topic posts. What happens? nothing. Oh, but If I go into one of the OWS hate threads and try to inject reason, I get a warning and a post removal.

Or maybe, just maybe the posts you alerted wern't interpreted as off topic by anyone but yourself

It's over. ATS has failed, no objective discussion on any subject can take place.

This is your opinion, you started the discussion, you got rational, well mannered replies at this point (your response). But some people had views and ideals that you don't agree with, so you're mad. And rather than construct a reply, attemopting to challenge the thinking of the posters, you throw a tantrum and "quit." Hardly objective

reply to post by GringoViejo

This is your opinion, you started the discussion, you got rational, well mannered replies at this point (your response). But some people had views and ideals that you don't agree with, so you're mad. And rather than construct a reply, attemopting to challenge the thinking of the posters, you throw a tantrum and "quit." Hardly objective

No i didn't get well mannered replies. I got off topic smears against OWS ignoring a simple question asked at the OP of this thread.

People refused to discuss the topic, mods refuse to moderate the posts, so i'm done trying to have an objective discussion with the likes of YOU people. go read it again if you need to, you are incorrect.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

This is your opinion, you started the discussion, you got rational, well mannered replies at this point (your response). But some people had views and ideals that you don't agree with, so you're mad. And rather than construct a reply, attemopting to challenge the thinking of the posters, you throw a tantrum and "quit." Hardly objective

No i didn't get well mannered replies. I got off topic smears against OWS ignoring a simple question asked at the OP of this thread.

People refused to discuss the topic, mods refuse to moderate the posts, so i'm done trying to have an objective discussion with the likes of YOU people. go read it again if you need to, you are incorrect.

I was a nice guy, no ???

reply to post by sonnny1

I dont want violent revolution,I want change.

I think the majority of people who agree with you there. I really don't want this to turn violent but all indications point towards that. I still believe in peaceful protests as a means to an end, but even the staunchest OWS supporters have to admit, this is being handled increasingly badly.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by GringoViejo

 

This is your opinion, you started the discussion, you got rational, well mannered replies at this point (your response). But some people had views and ideals that you don't agree with, so you're mad. And rather than construct a reply, attemopting to challenge the thinking of the posters, you throw a tantrum and "quit." Hardly objective

No i didn't get well mannered replies. I got off topic smears against OWS ignoring a simple question asked at the OP of this thread.

People refused to discuss the topic, mods refuse to moderate the posts, so i'm done trying to have an objective discussion with the likes of YOU people. go read it again if you need to, you are incorrect.

No, up until your tantrum you had well mannered replies that were on topic. Maybe seabags could have been seen as not as well mannered as the others, but it was one post amongst a few with a lot that could have been discussed. But, they don't agree with your stance, which makes you angry, so you decline the discussion you were asking for.

Also, I'm not trying to mini mod here, but if you alert a post, and then respond to it,its not going to get removed. That's not the issue in this thread, but its good to remember. You might be right about the rest of the thread, but up to your tantrum you had the discussion you wanted, you declined it because people don't agree with you. Like I said, hardly objective.



ETA: By the way. you realize you're not helping your case when you run around making such infantile remarks like:

i'm done trying to have an objective discussion with the likes of YOU people.

Hardly objective. Or mature.

reply to post by charles1952

What are they actually doing?

They are attempting to change their world, or at least their country, for what they perceive to be the better. But the core of what they are doing is:

Standing up for their beliefs. Even if it's entirely misguided.

I don't know where this talk about "fighting" is coming from.

Really, we're going to argument semantics now? No, I think I'll pass on that one.

Where to start? Is this a true movement of the population? Doesn't seem like it. Can't change the system? Hardly, that's what elections are for. And if you say "We're the true voice of the people, but we can't change the system, so we'll tear it down," then you sound like a revolutionary mob.

Yeah, like those stupid lazy ingrates you call the founding fathers?

Back to "fighting?" Do you want a fight? Where is this fighting idea coming from? You must use it a half dozen times at least.

Back to semantics again? Jeez, how about you replace the word "fighting" with the words " standing up for" is that better? didn't think so.

Do you want me to respect everyone who tries to do something?

do I want you to respect them for trying to do something? No. i asked IF you did. Clearly you don't, didn't need a massive quite riddled post for that.

Originally posted by GringoViejo
I see what you're doing here, but try to remeber some real protests. How about the civil rights movement? The numbered in the millions, not tens of thousands. Sure, OWS might be diverse, but in reality its a bunch of people camping.

Yes but..

They are really really really really mad!
About something...

I feel and I know it's not a popular stance by either side and that's this movement has wasted valuable time and credibility by not going after the FED and the other Main Root causes of the problem. Patting themselves on the back for going after Bank of America [Which they claim as a victory]


Just shows how much of a paradox this whole movement projects. First off, they say they are after the ending of "Corporatism" and go after a large corporation. BoA Then, Many also cry for Good Paying jobs? Now who is going to provide those jobs?

Joe Shmoe the guy on Skid Row?

reply to post by Fox Molder

I was a nice guy, no ???

Indeed, but alas, you failed to address the question I posed in the OP. I didn't ask if people support ows, or their reasons for not supporting them. but of course, the thread is mostly that, their reasons for not supporting them.

the thread was about protesting in general, using OWS as a loose example as it's currently taking place.

People decided for me that my thread idea was lame, and what ATS really needed was another bash-ows thread.

Hell, I even resigned myself to using any other protest as an example, but it all comes back to OWS and it's quite sad.

That being said, I respect everyone's opinions, even if I feel they are based on false information, and regardless of what these people "feel" I'm not trying to get support, or anything of the sort.

It was a simple question, do you respect people taking to the streets for whatever cause they are promoting. I do, even if I'm 100% against the cause, I can't help but respect them for trying.

reply to post by SLAYER69

I feel and I know it's not a popular stance by either side and that's this movement has wasted valuable time and credibility by not going after the FED and the other Main Root causes of the problem.

Indeed. but how exactly do they go about that? Send a few letters in? Post on the open government forum? no, they protest and raise awareness.

They, without an actual leadership to speak of, are merely wafting in the breeze now. they are preparing to march to DC so who knows, maybe someone with half a brain in their skull will organize this into something people can get behind.

but until then, I have the utmost respect for those willing to do this PEACEFULLY and LEGALLY.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
It was a simple question, do you respect people taking to the streets for whatever cause they are promoting. I do, even if I'm 100% against the cause, I can't help but respect them for trying.

If you paid attention you wouldn't have had to start a thread to ask the question. Even the non supporters support the poeple's right to protest.

reply to post by GringoViejo

But, they don't agree with your stance, which makes you angry, so you decline the discussion you were asking for.

? They didn't even address the topic being discussed for several pages.

reply to post by GringoViejo

If you paid attention you wouldn't have had to start a thread to ask the question. Even the non supporters support the poeple's right to protest.

Who said support their right? That's a given if you call yourself an american. I asked if they could put aside the partisan stuff for a few minutes and reflect on these people and their willingness to protest. i myself respect them, even if they are completely off base, and was wondering if others felt the same.

what I got was 4 pages of:

how can i support ows
i hate ows
ows are crooks
ows are stupid and lazy

Now a few posters who are firmly on the anti-ows side eventually answered the question, but if you bother to read the thread, you'll see how hard it was to pull that tooth.

It's not about support, that right is a protected right. it's about respecting another human being for standing up for their beliefs. I do. some people here do as well, but can't tell you that without a diatribe about how awful OWS is.

I do respect them and have considered joining them, but there is too much to lose for me personally (salary/family security). It's a simple cost benefit analysis done from the personal perspective.

I am so happy to see so much solidarity around the world. Watching the videos, and the local turn out in Texas, warmed my heart. I was really worried for a while that my fellow citizens had been sedated and brainwashed to the point that they would never see the high price that they were paying for their own slavery.

Slayer's whole post

Yes..."Occupy" has got a foot on the ground and heading is the general right direction so far and I for one would love to see it get more structured and have a louder voice and now thousands of faint ones. Let's give it time, a little helps and effort when you can and see where it brings the voice of the people!

Well firstly I think they are protesting not for what they believe is right but because of a current situation which they think is wrong.
And I agree with them, it is wrong, no argument there.

Challenging the premise of the question is still on topic.

All of these are from before your post. By the way, you asked more than one question, which makes more of the initial statements on topic. I would post more, but I have enough evidence.

By the way, nobody has the right for support in a protest. I don't spport the protest, I support the right. There's a difference

You got the discussion you asked for, and you, no one else, declined.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


I'm sorry, you derailed the thread by not accepting the conversation you asked for.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


Here in the Netherlands the groups of OWSérs are growing but they need to get the word out more. Local news stations should do interviews and give the people information of what it all stands for. Dutch celebs should be helping these people out. Haul out the big guns...I bet there are enough celeb millionairs willing to speak out and take their turn in the tent....if possible.

It would be nice if some CEO or big company would back the movement. For them it would be good advertisment too. Use the big corperation commercial tactics and strategies. People listen to what their favorite soap star has to say on the subject. Educate the people about OWS and let them know OWS is there for them and rubb it in their faces.....politely.

Respect for the people who leave their home to give their time and energy to theOWS cause. Hopefully their efforts will be protected from people who see an oppotunity to freeload or to disrupt the organisastion.

The OWS is not something which matters just because what is in the american constitution but is applicable for the entire free world.....I mean world.....free or not.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


Thank you sir!

reply to post by SLAYER69


The big corporations killed the mom and pop operations and in turn destroyed the American dream! We have the same job demand without monopolies and unfair competition! It is impossible to tell the difference between concentrated capital and elected officials in this country! Whose side are you really on?

Honestly, do you just seek more blood? Maybe you want to see persia through the sights of your M4? Am I right?

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


No I do not respect them. Anyone can protest, hell that's how the Nazi's started with protest. No, that exercise of rights does not earn my respect and really I don't think they care wether I do or don't atleast they should'nt
What would it take for me to protest? I Won't know till it happens but I'll tell you this, I will not care if anyone respect's it or not. Generally when your a protestor it's not for a popularity contest.

P.S. I do however respect the "right" to protest along with our other right's.