The Tide is Turning

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by seabag

 

Replacing corporatism with socialism and more entitlements (which OWS supports) is throwing gasoline on a fire. That will not solve the problems we face, therefore I cannot support it. Follow me? As I’ve pointed out so many times……plus one more time here……there were 1.5 million people (Tea Party) protesting in DC on 9/12/2009. There were no reports of violence. No rapes. No robberies. No beatings. What does that say about OWS? They’ve never had anywhere close to 1.5 million people at any one place, yet there are dozens of reports of crime. Justify that….

You just can't let go of it can you? You just can't objectively look at the topic instead of concentrating on OWS and what you think they support.

Why do you need me to justify anything? Why can't you answer the question, wait, you already did, but you couldn't leave it like that, nope, gotta play that "i hate ows" harp a few more times right?

Get the hell over it. I'm not talking about ows directly, I'm not asking you to support them or if you support them or if you think they will change things, or if you think they are socialist criminals.

I quite simply asked if you could at least respect people and their willingness to try.

Obviously you don't, we get it.

Even though you claim your post isn't about OWS its really nothing more than an attempt to rally support. That's all. 

You don't want to talk about solutions because the majority of people don't agree with OWS. Instead you'd like everyone to put aside all the reasons they disagree and just respect the protesters for being brave. Nice try, and rather typical. 

Reminds me of the 2008 election. So many people pointed out that Obama had no executive experience, ties to radicals, no grasp of the issues. Yet many people asked us to put that aside and focus on how presidential he looks, what a great communicator he is, how intelligent he is, etc. Many did put the facts aside and now the country is much worse off. Remember?? Anybody but Bush, right?? Don't pay attention to the details...just follow your heart, right??

You can keep all of that, bro. I'm not buying it. 

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by beezzer

 

So you want respect for the protesters?

no, I wanted to see if OTHERS respected people willing to do something. you do not, good for you, I suggest you form an anti-ows group and stage counter protests. I would respect you a lot more then than I do right now.

but see, several posts in and FINALLY you answered, kinda, the question. so you don't respect people exercising their right to protest. Thanks for clearing it up.

Who really needs a counter protest when they are showing off their murky side. People will be able to see all by themselves the shady stuff. In spite of the liberal media, they have still reported on this stuff. I'm wondering how long it will take Obama to throw them under the bus in order to convince more mainstream Americans he doesn't stand for this kind of anarchic overthrow of our Constitution and system.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by ModernAcademia

 

Firstly who are saying two things here You are saying that something needs to be done, sure agreed As far as what you think is fair and right..... what do they think is fair and right? Wanting everything free at the expense of everyone?

See this is why I started the thread the way I did. Because I'd like to have a discussion on the social aspects of people willing to march in the streets and protest for what they believe.

I clearly said this isn't about OWS and their motives or actions, it's a reflection on the fact that, in 2011, people of all walks of life are willing to march and fight for what they think is right.

they have CLEARLY stated what they want, and taking your money isn't what they want.

This is it. close the thread mods, it's impossible to have an objective discussion about anything with people continually derailing and going off topic.

You win. I submit. I will spend the rest of my time lurking at ATS, possibly posting comments here and there, but congratulations, you've managed to push another user away from ATS.

And yes, I did alert the mods to the off topic posts. What happens? nothing. Oh, but If I go into one of the OWS hate threads and try to inject reason, I get a warning and a post removal.

It's over. ATS has failed, no objective discussion on any subject can take place.

I am personally sorry that you feel this way actually. OWS is a touchy subject,and I say good for those who have decided to protest,even though many on ATS do feel that they are not protesting for ALL of America. When you envision a movement that is ALL encompassing,and one that represents ALL of America,you would easily think that ALL of America would be there. People support many different movements. Not everyone was out there protesting,but many did find some parts of OWS worthwhile,IE; Bank transfer day,as a shining example.

When the messages gets blurred,and not all of the messages are wanted,you will see detractors. MANY on ATS support the right to protest. I would have to say 99% do. When someone shows OWS is not all that maybe an OWS supporter says it is,the detractors get LABELED. The "If you aint with us,your against us" mantra that OWS has taken,is a very big reason detractors come out in droves. You might be surprised what feelings are invoked with it. I am surprised as I take it,you're a OWS SUPPORTER,You would give up your right to debate this,would ask the Mods to close this. I have had good discussions with many on this site that support OWS. I dont subscribe to OWS,but if the feeling of quitting represents just even one,then your movement is doomed.

reply to post by seabag

Even though you claim your post isn't about OWS its really nothing more than an attempt to rally support. That's all. You don't want to talk about solutions because the majority of people don't agree with OWS. Instead you'd like everyone to put aside all the reasons they disagree and just respect the protesters for being brave. Nice try, and rather typical.

No, what is typical is your refusal to stay on topic. i'm not trying to rally support, if I was would I have made the attempts to make this about people protesting in general? no, of course not. i'm not talking about the problems, i'm not talking about the solutions. i'm not even asking you TO respect them.

I asked IF you respected people's willingness to try to do something they think is right. simple as that.

you clearly refuse to address that situation and are intent on derailing the thread.

Who exactly has the agenda here?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Your entire post is pro-OWS and you want us to not give you negative feedback

Awesome, this is the insanity i'm dealing with. You even quoted what I said. Pure insanity.

Lets just take a break from the partisan bickering for a minute. Lets forget what you think you know about OWS for a second. Lets just stop and reflect on what these people are TRYING to do. Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

What is pro-ows about asking how you feel about people willing to protest.

YOU are the ones making it about OWS, YOU are the ones with an agenda.

I think protesting is a good thing but it would be alot better if the people actually had the power to make changes without having to resort to protests because their representatives which, as is shown time and again, have been corrupted.

reply to post by sonnny1

I am surprised as I take it,you're a OWS SUPPORTER,You would give up your right to debate this,would ask the Mods to close this.

what debate? I support some of their goals, not their methods. But I sure do respect them for trying. and that's all I was asking, what are others peoples feelings, not on ows, but on the fact that people are still willing to TRY.

And this craptacular thread is the result.

reply to post by daskakik

I think protesting is a good thing but it would be alot better if the people actually had the power to make changes without having to resort to protests because their representatives which, as is shown time and again, have been corrupted.

I agree, and I feel the people there who started this got fed up with the fact that the system is rigged. the people are supposed to have the power, not corporations and lobbyists.

They are going about this all wrong IMO, but that bares little to do with the core question of the thread.

I find it amazing that people, including all those "lazy jobless lollygaggers" are actually willing to commit to a cause.

As I said before, I didn't support the tea party, but I respect them for having some BALLS. I don't support the anti-abortion groups, but I respect their tenacity (until they start murdering doctors).

I guess it was simply selfish to ask others what their thoughts are while trying to ignore the can of gasoline in the corner. I've been accused of all types of things in this thread already, and really, I should be angry. i'm sad in reality. Sad for the forums, sad I wasted this much time trying to get a simple answer out of people.

I just find it utterly depressing that it's impossible for people to be objective. then they claim I have the agenda?

you are all insane.

reply to post by seabag

Many did put the facts aside and now the country is much worse off. Remember?? Anybody but Bush, right?? Don't pay attention to the details...just follow your heart, right??

LoL if you could have only been on the forums I was on during the run up to that election, you'd see how completely idiotic and insane your statement is, if it is indeed directed at me. I didn't fall for Nobamas crap. I did say, once he "won" to wait and judge him on actions, not him being a secret muslim anarchist socialist satan worshipper. But I was the first to say dude, you can't vote for him just because he's black. he's unqualified, and in the pocket of the very same people you are trying to vote out of power.

But that doesn't fit into your anti-phishyblankwaters agenda, does it?

reply to post by ThirdEyeofHorus

Who really needs a counter protest when they are showing off their murky side. People will be able to see all by themselves the shady stuff.

So for you the actions of the few represent the whole? Anyways, you are probably right, you guys don't need to stage a counter protest or do anything other than complain on ATS, because that horrible "liberal" media is doing a bang up job for you.

That's fine though. i'll keep that in mind next time you guys want to create a thread about something, I'll just blow BS all over that thread and see how that works.

do you respect people willing to fight for their beliefs, or not, simple question deserves a simple answer.

And, those people can be whomever you want them to be, and their beliefs can be whatever you want them to be. Do you have respect for them or not?

I have respect for anti-abortion groups.
I have respect for the tea party "protesters"
I have respect for each and every person who protested Bush's presidency
I have respect for each and every person who protested Obamas's presidency.

I don't have to agree with, or believe in, the causes, I can still respect people willing to do what they think is right, whatever their definition of right might be.

reply to post by seabag

Instead you'd like everyone to put aside all the reasons they disagree and just respect the protesters for being brave.

Not THESE protesters, any protesters. I thought, stupidly, we could objectively use OWS as an example. Obviously you guys can't let your agenda slip, even for a minute.

So, do you respect ANY protesters protesting ANY CAUSE they feel is RIGHT.

And for the record, I'd quickly classify at least half of the protesters as stupid, not brave.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
reply to post by sonnny1

 

I am surprised as I take it,you're a OWS SUPPORTER,You would give up your right to debate this,would ask the Mods to close this.

what debate? I support some of their goals, not their methods. But I sure do respect them for trying. and that's all I was asking, what are others peoples feelings, not on ows, but on the fact that people are still willing to TRY.

And this craptacular thread is the result.

Hmmmm

Before OWS,there were MANY people in the world protesting and fighting for things. They are just another long line of people that are willing to protest,obviously something that you agree with,and respect. Asking for a kumbaya moment though,worthy in many ways,isnt something I think you will be getting.Maybe from the pro-OWS crowd,but definitely not from those who wholeheartedly,dont believe in ANY of this movement/protest. Everyone has an opinion.Regulating it,dilutes anything your trying to accomplish. Dialogue and letting those who want to say what they want to say,is the best course of action. Pros and Cons are going to be said,this is ATS.

This is about OWS,Regardless on how you want to spin it.Expect heavy turnout,and expect the detractors. (BTW,you dont have to comment or give a response to anything being said)

Peace.

When this movement first began, I tried to be open minded about their mission and also hoped that their goals and objectives would gain greater focus with the passage of a little time. Now, we are 2 months into these illegal occupations (technically) and still nothing. No real concrete action, suggestions, solutions or future plans. The only plans I see, are that of digging in for the winter and how to combat a lice outbreak in Portland and how to protect woman from sexual predators lurking in the darkness and anonymity of Zuccotti Park.

The violence is escalating with the passing of everyday with California acting as the catalyst for other locations.

I cannot relate to anything mentioned by OWS beyond reforming the Fed. Even with the message of end the Fed, no one has marched on their offices and they only drop anti Semitic comments about Bernanke with no substance beyond the slurs.

No marching on the congressional offices or even the Capital Building or the White House.

I am getting the message now that solutions are not part of the goal here. The only desired outcome is chaos and a complete upheaval of our nation by a group of people who do NOT even remotely represent the core population of this nation. Not even close. We are simply seeing a means to an end and they will sit as long as possible until the end is nigh.

We are witnessing a live stage show taken right out of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals". The popular guide book for the progressive movement now leading our nation and for those partaking in the OWS occupations.

The man of action views the issue of means and ends in pragmatic and strategic terms. He has no other problem; he thinks only of his actual resources and the possibilities of various choices of action. He asks of ends only whether they are achievable and worth the cost; of means, only whether they will work. To say that corrupt means corrupt the ends is to believe in the immaculate conception of ends and principles.

Alinsky- Rules for Radicals Page 24

Ethics and the notion of moral rectitude have been thrown out the window on the way to Alinsky's end as carried out by the Occupy movement. When push comes to shove they will continue to take the "means" to a new level.

Ever wonder why none of these people want an open dialogue with any figure or official who has the power to make decisions beyond letting them camp out for another night?? They haven't reached that point yet..

Perhaps Alinsky has the answer once again.

the organizer must be able to split himself into two parts -- one part in the arena of action where he polarizes the issue to 100 to nothing, and helps to lead his forces into conflict, while the other part knows that when the time comes for negotiations that it really is only a 10 percent difference.

Alinsky- Rules for radicals page 78

Pardon my sourcing, all I have is a dog eared and highlighted copy of his book that I bought used 21 years ago in the Uni Bookstore.

Notice how we are seeing a shift in the tactics used on the streets to bring the fight outside of the encampments. Even to a Burger King. Time is wearing these people thin!!

"A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

Hence the new levels of excitement added to these campers lives on the street.
Alinsky Rule #7 Power tactics

#10

"The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."

I'll leave at this from page 117

The job then is getting the people to move, to act, to participate; in short, to develop and harness the necessary power to effectively conflict with the prevailing patterns and change them. When those prominent in the status quo turn and label you an 'agitator' they are completely correct, for that is, in one word, your function—to agitate to the point of conflict

(emphasis added)

Conflict Conflict Conflict.... The message clearly sent by Alinsky....Also the message clearly sent by OWS and company

reply to post by jibeho

No marching on the congressional offices or even the Capital Building.

Indeed. If the mission of the "occupations" was to raise awareness, mission accomplished. Now lets see you march on Washington.

Oh wait, that's exactly what they are about to do, march from New York to Washington, i'm sure that will work out great for everyone involved.

but I still respect most of them for trying, most of us wouldn't be bothered and that is a fact.

reply to post by sonnny1

Before OWS,there were MANY people in the world protesting and fighting for things. They are just another long line of people that are willing to protest,obviously something that you agree with,and respect.

Eww careful there, I didn't say I agree with it, I merely respect them for having the fortitude to try. Like I said, I don't agree with the abortion protestors, but I sure do respect them for trying.

and yes, I do have to respond, I refuse to post a thread and leave it dangling in the wind, even if the responses are the opposite of what I expected. Plus, I wouldn't want to make these guys miss another opportunity to slander me or put words in my mouth, tasty, cholesterol filled words.
===================================================================
Back on topic.

Do you guys feel that, the Arab spring and these protests here in North America and Europe, is an indication that the new generation is going to be more involved?

Politically speaking, the young voters usually don't vote. Obama did pretty good at getting them to the poles, and I'd suspect many of them in the US would be voting towards Ron Paul.

But do you think that this is a good indication of the political involvement we can expect from these people? Obviously in a democracy the more people involved the better, as the more voters taking part give a clearer indication of the whole.

Can we expect actual changes in the future? Not tomorrow, but who's to say some of these people (not the drugged out criminals) end up in politics?

At the very least I expect a high voter turnout in the 2012 election, I'd like to see Paul win, but it's not my fight, but Obama surely shouldn't be re-elected based on his first term.

Isn't the term a "lame duck?"

Originally posted by ModernAcademia

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Lets just stop and reflect on what these people are TRYING to do. Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

But how can I reflect on what they are trying to do when they themselves do not know what they are trying to do?

ModernAcademia, I know I've explained it at least thirty times on ATS. I know there are at least twenty other posters who have done the same.

At this point, you are choosing to remain ignorant. You are making an actual, conscious choice to utterly and completely avoid knowing. I have no idea why you, among so many others, are making this choice, but here you are.

Now, I just want to tell you. You've clearly convinced yourself that willful ignorance is the path for you. Awesome, that's great, i hope it makes you happy. But your constant, incessant bragging about how very little you know, and how much you love to talk about how little you know, isn't going to make anyone else join you in being clueless. So honestly, you might as well just suck it up and quiet it down with this spurious line of nonsense, 'cause the only people willing to buy it have already done so.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

Indeed. If the mission of the "occupations" was to raise awareness, mission accomplished. Now lets see you march on Washington.

I did.. 9/12/2009

reply to post by jibeho


Arg, i didn't mean you personally, I meant "them" the protesters. Anyways, good on you for getting your feet on the ground. That date doesn't ring a bell so I have no clue what it was about, but boots on the ground is the first step right? If people aren't aware of you and the issue, they certainly can't support you.

hopefully you didn't have groups of people constantly questioning your motives, funding, and solutions.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox

At this point, you are choosing to remain ignorant. You are making an actual, conscious choice to utterly and completely avoid knowing. I have no idea why you, among so many others, are making this choice, but here you are.

I know why. It's called playing the laws of averages. Constantly making us repeat the same information over and over is eventually going to make someone, probably me, blow a gasket and go off, which is what they want, if you couldn't tell from most of the replies (I'm positive you can tell).

shame on me for feeding the trolls. and when I say trolls, I refer to the small group refusing the stay on topic. You aren't a troll if you disagree with me, you are a troll because you have an agenda and will not deviate from it.

I surely hope these people never have a cause that requires grass roots movements, because if they get their way, they would all be rounded up and jailed or shot, because protesting is apparently un-american.

Having everyone pay taxes in per portion to what they earn is socialism, but handing tax payers dollars to private banks, that's just CAPITALISM! and yes, it's all caps with it's own punctuation.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


It was this little event www.foxnews.com...