The Tide is Turning

reply to post by daskakik

Wishing death upon people without understanding what it is that they are for...

I've listened to them and read their blogs and signs. They are commies and/or facists. They think they are being treated unfairly just because they are very poor at making life's decisions. I took an oath to defend the Constitution and our way of life. They wish to tear that all down. They can just drop dead. I think it is just sad that anyone agrees with them or has any sympathy for them. Those folks can just join in that "drop dead" group.

Originally posted by LifeIsPeculiar
reply to post by daskakik

 

I've listened to them and read their blogs and signs. They are commies and/or facists. They think they are being treated unfairly just because they are very poor at making life's decisions. I took an oath to defend the Constitution and our way of life. They wish to tear that all down. They can just drop dead. I think it is just sad that anyone agrees with them or has any sympathy for them. Those folks can just join in that "drop dead" group.

Great more death wishes from someone who took an oath to defend a constitution that limits the government from infinging the rights of these people and those who have sympathy for them to be heard. A fine example of hypocrisy if I ever saw one.

Have a nice day.

Originally posted by phishyblankwaters
Lets just take a break from the partisan bickering for a minute. Lets forget what you think you know about OWS for a second. Lets just stop and reflect on what these people are TRYING to do. Even if you feel they are misguided, wrong, or evil, just stop and reflect on what these people are doing.

They are taking time out of their lives to go fight for what they believe is right. do you have the guts to fight for what you believe in? Will you stand in the cold, taking tear gas and rubber bullets, to stand for a principle?

If you won't fight to remake the world in a way you feel is fair and right, who will? If a true movement of the population can't change the system, shouldn't the system be destroyed?

Keep in mind, I kindly asked to keep the partisan bickering out of this thread, there are countless threads for you to post in, this not one of them. If you intend to post in this thread, make your post about how you feel about these people uniting to fight for what they perceive as being right.

Ignore what they are fighting for, and just reflect on the fact that these people, in nations all over the earth, are standing in the cold fighting for something. Even if you disagree with what they are fighting for, can you not at least RESPECT them for actually trying?

the tide is turning.

Ricky Perry is a government Shill, he will be the one that will monitor the internet, thought police the works and literally imprison people who say bad and negative things against him, like the Orwell novel where the same thing occured. Worse than a Stalin dictator, the fact that he is even in "polls" scares and terrifies me. And using the prostitute faith-based initiative to try and make him become a saviour for our problems, that is like a Titanic conspiracy worse than selling your soul to the devil.

I will stand in the cold for days and hours and become a patriot again, take rubber bullets if someone like Perry becomes president, because at that point I know I will be dead anyway. Everyone else will be in a fantasy world of complete evil. That English people here are saying that the New World Order is something that is open to "debate." That is a craft, of primitive man appalled by the "dehumanizing" technology of modern man. The British isles are a waystation for primitive man, owned by the bankers, and many are still in need need some kind of magical proof that something is wrong. Britain is the place that murdered Joan of Arc of France, burned her alive while she tried to save her country. She was the true Patriot the Benjamin Franklin of her day. Rick Perry will the same as that monarchy did, burn any Joan of Arcs who try to come and stand up for real patriotic beliefs.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


I'm going to give you a S&F just for the heading, its a nice one, so inspirational

reply to post by daskakik

Have a nice day.

Thank you! You, too!

reply to post by nusnus

I'm going to give you a S&F just for the heading, its a nice one, so inspirational

I thought so, and stupidly I thought it could remain free of pro or anti ows rhetoric.

I found it inspiring to see people doing something, anything, and even though I don't have much love for Roger Waters, I found his words pretty profound considering who they were coming from.

Ah well.

Peace and love to you all

reply to post by LifeIsPeculiar

She is very proud to be a US citizen, and a VERY happy capitalist.

There is nothing wrong with capitalism. The problem lies in the corruption at the top levels ensuring that what we have barely resembles capitalism.

I'm not against Capitalism, and the majority of the OWSers aren't either. they are against the socialist and fascist corporate take over of your government. They just can't hope to compete with drugged out hippies for air time on the tv networks.

If you are so against socialism, what are your thoughts on the socialist bailout of the banks using your tax dollars? That's socialism. And that's the reason a good chunk of those "owers" are there, no, not the drugged out hippies, the actual well meaning people who TRIED to get something done, but failed because of drugged out hippies and peoples inability to see past them.

And to an extent, socialism can be, and is, a good thing. I'm proudly Canadian, and we have many services that are, for lack of a better word, socialist. My country hasn't descended into chaos yet, contrary to what your talking heads might tell you, I'm not waiting years for life saving medical treatment either.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

what are your thoughts on the socialist bailout of the banks using your tax dollars? That's socialism.

It was a very bad move on the part of the government. The OWS protesters really should protest the Obama Administration and the Democrats in Congress who passed that bill. The OWS people are terribly misinformed as to the cause of their woes.

Originally posted by Nokrank
reply to post by KryptKeeper

 

You must really like how many hard working peopke were made poor by a recession that was caused by pure greed, dishonesty,exploitation all of which still goes on and won't change unless SOMEONE stands up and says "hey what about us ordinary folk? We dont think our governments values are in the right place. We want equality"

What do you mean by "We want equality?"

reply to post by phishyblankwaters

So, I'm sure you felt the same way about the tea party protests right? Did you applaud them for what they were doing even though you perhaps did not agree with them or thought they were evil?

Originally posted by onecraftydude
I find myself dreaming of the day when people come together in one voice to create the change they seek as a whole.

I appreciate the sentiment here, but I have to say I find that to be a bit naive/utopian, with a twist of collectivism. People are individuals, everyone is different, and no two people will ever truly "come together in one voice" because no matter how much they agree with each other, they will never agree on everything.
Pick any group of protestors/revolutionaries from any era, and you will find that even if the group appears to have solidarity, on the individual level each person has different reasons and motivations for being there, and different hopes and visions for the ultimate outcome.

Put two people together and they will find something to argue about. Add a third person and the first two will stop arguing long enough to team up on the third guy.

Competition and struggle is in our genes--if it wasn't, we'd be extinct. To me, this is why the idea of individual freedom and individual responsibility--and a government and law system that supports and upholds those values--is so important. When you're designing a system, you design within the framework of the conditions that system will exist in, and the materials that system will be composed of...otherwise the system will fail. In my opinion, "collective" systems of government will always fail, because they are designed around ideas of what people wish humans were like, instead of what humans are....and what humans are is a bunch of ornery, argumentative, opportunistic, stubborn, hard-headed bastards....and more power to 'em!

Originally posted by Ittabena
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

Today, consideration of human suffering has been legislated out of the equation if there is money to be made for corporate stockholders. What are we doing?

Well, considering that the vast majority of "corporate stockholders" are holding their stock through intermediaries such as hedge or pension funds....what we are doing is increasing the value of Grandma's retirement fund, or increasing the value of little Jonny's future college tuition.

Originally posted by Unknown Soldier
reply to post by stephanies-chase

 

Listen, I understand what you are trying to do, but you can't expect people to discuss the honorable stance of OWS when most people protesting can't even give a straight answer to what they are protesting for.

ORLY? So you have talked to most of the people at OWS? Thousands of people across the country where did you find the time? Or did you come to this conclusion because you heard someone make this claim? This is a logical fallacy! This is the common cop out failed excuse the anti OWS keep regurgitating.

I haven't spoken to the "thousands across the country" but I have certainly read many posts by hundreds of pro-OWS here on ATS and in other forums. None of you have the same picture of the "problem," nor the same vision of a "solution," much less a method of executing the "changes" you all espouse, which, by the way, vary widely as well.

However, I see this as typical of any group of humans. Stop trying to pretend you're all on the same page, because you're not....and guess what, that's natural.

reply to post by phishyblankwaters


Merely fighting for what you think is 'right' is not a cause for admiration.

People fight for things they believe in everyday, with no thought of the consequences or real impact.

Fighting...for the sake of fighting doesn't make one more Altruistic or more Noble.

There have been plenty of sick twisted people in history who thought they were on the right side. The Nazi SS fought. Mao's people fought. Stalin's fought. Fools fight for their perceived 'right' all the time. It doesn't give them any special honor.

If the protestors were out there chanting "Nuke Canada because they might be a threat" or "we need to ban ice cream because it makes people fat", would you give them kudos for standing their ground? Of course not. I've seen people give their lives for a STREET CORNER in the hood. Just because you are the loudest and most 'active' doesn't give you bragging rights. You could very well just be the loud idiot with other idiots to support you.
ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM

That's why the saying "The road to hell is paved with good intention" we always be true.

If you're going to fight for something, be educated about it or get educated. And if you are going to join a collective who share same thoughts, you can become dangerous with the collective. Rarely does anyone THINK about their position, but love being part of a group.

I don't honor people for fighting, I honor people for WHAT they stand for, not how LOUD they stand for it.

Originally posted by Witness2008

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by phishyblankwaters

 

*yawn*
So you want respect for the protesters?

Ummmmm, nope.

I have more respect for the twenty-something working 3 jobs to take care of his and his family.

You respect a person working 3 jobs to support his family is tantamount to congratulating someone for being a compliant slave. Someone that is working three jobs is only supporting the corporate elite.

I get really tired of this "slave" crap. I know you aren't stupid, so you have to see the huge, astounding, massive differences between having a job(or 3) and being a slave. I mean, really.

But still, lets address the problems of the hypothetical guy with three jobs. He's got a family to support. Big deal, right? Well...kind of a big deal. Lets suppose this young guy's family is one child around age 10, one baby/toddler, one wife, and himself. Average food consumption for one human is approx. 1500lbs per year. So figure 3000lbs for him and his wife, and 800lbs for the two children(probably a low number but whatever), 3800lbs of food annually, or 10.5lbs of food every day. Now factor in water and shelter requirements.

With this information in hand, is it so difficult to understand that to obtain these necessities for bare survival, work must be done, every day? Remove the guy from the present system and stick him and his family in a pristine natural environment untrammeled by currencies, stock exchanges, corporations, banks, etc...and, well, damn. Still gotta go out and get that damn food! Still gotta build and maintain a shelter! Still gotta make clothing from something! And, the world being what it is, almost everything that this guy will need to use to provide those things will resist his efforts in some way. Animals are quick and wary, food plants must be cultivated and protected, trees for lumber for shelter take dedication to cut down and prepare. Every day from dawn to dusk he will have to toil.
These days, at least his three jobs can be in air conditioned environments, with manufactured tools to keep him from working himself to death by the time he's in his late 40's. And actually, our system is advanced and efficient enough such that our hypothetical person could amass enough "work credit" -- i.e. money -- such that he could pass it on to his children, so that they won't have to work quite as hard. He could even amass so much that his descendants won't have to work very hard at all for many generations.

In other words, it's not slavery, it's LIFE. There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch.

Also, I myself have on several occasions held down two or three jobs...none of which were with a large corporation, or even a tiny corporation. Not all jobs come from corporate giants, and it is disingenuous to suggest that they do, or that anyone who is working is just "supporting the corporate elite." That's just group rhetoric that has no meaning and does not reflect well on the mouth emanating it.

Originally posted by Witness2008
reply to post by LifeIsPeculiar

 

Kinda like the IT worker that paid oodles of interest on a student loan thinking it would benefit him in the long run, who is now forced into the fast food sector because his job was exported? That kinda guy?

Yeah, like that guy, who probably thought the economic situation needed to be regulated more because it was obviously screwed up, and the regulations resulted in higher costs of business, resulting in his job getting exported to somewhere cheaper.

Just like that guy.

Originally posted by sir_slide
reply to post by Unknown Soldier

 

What is so bad about peace and love?

Nothing. It is bad, however, to be so enamored of peace and love that one begins to believe that they are the answer to everything. Peace and love can solve a lot of problems...but they can never solve the problem of the violence and hatred of others. In other words, sometimes ya gotta kick people's asses, lest thine own ass be kicked. Actually, OWS has this concept down pat.

And, incidentally, when hippies said "peace and love" what they actually meant was "drugs and sex." Not that I'm dogging drugs and sex....I'm just saying.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus

Originally posted by gentledissident
I have to admit, it's good to see people taking to the streets. Occupy might not be far enough to the left for me, but at least it's stating the problems inherent in the system. I don't think you can avoid the problems without designing a new system, but at least they are pointing out problems to the segment of the population who is A, aware of Occupy and B, on that particular fence.

Not far left enough? How much left can it get after the Communist Party joins?

How is communism leftist? Putting the control into the hands of a few, like is done today, seem conservative to me. I'm talking about socialism. This movement seems to either promote the sociopaths' playground of capitalism, or doesn't have enough guts to form communes which guard against infiltration by sociopaths. Eventually a system should form from those of us who want to live in peace and harmony. I would think that would frustrate sociopaths so much, they would violate already existing laws. There would be no reason to outlaw sociopaths

. Perhaps they could be given an island called Cutthroat, and they could compete to their hearts' content. It might be harder for them to fool each other than it was the now free citizenry, but I hoping they'll enjoy the challenge.

The first thing they would do is come kick all your peaceful harmonized asses and take over. It's human nature. Build a system that works with the components within it--even the not-so-desirable ones--or it will fail. Socialism is a wishful-thinking system based on the idea that individuals can and will always place the needs of the many above the needs of the self, and that is complete BS.