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ATS and OWS: What the heck, ATS?

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posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 05:19 AM
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Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 
It's not the fact that there are protesters, l'il puddin', it's because their solutions are wrong.


They are protestors, NOT revolutionaries. They demand change, but they can't implement it. That's why there needs to be the next step.
edit on 6-11-2011 by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 05:21 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


I gotta agree, I didn't lurk here for as long as you, but I have seen the same thing.

Personally, though, I don't trust any MSM anymore. Haven't had a real news reporter since Walter Cronkite, and now we have lost Andy Rooney.

Guess I just have to pay attention to Bill Maher, Stephen Colbert, amd Jon Stewart.



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 06:08 AM
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I'm not sure if I'm surprised by the response of ATS to the OWS movement. I have always been under the impression that the US is predominantly a conservative nation. Just look at the main talking points that get discussed over election time. Gay Marriage, abortion and how Christian the candidate is.

I'm not sure how I feel about the whole occupy movement, here in the UK it seems to be very peaceful and is not causing offense to anyone. It's providing a platform for free speech and open discussion of alternatives and it has inadvertently highlighted hypocrisies at the heart of the British establishment.

As far as OWS goes, there have been somethings that I have found troubling about the movement, some of their tactics have been questionable, but again on the whole, why would I have a problem with people demonstrating injustice in the world.

People are angry, many don't know how to articulate that anger against a system. The left seems to provide the most appropriate rhetoric to the situation, but i don't believe the majority want communism. Just a capitalism that puts people before profits.

edit on 6-11-2011 by woodwardjnr because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 06:14 AM
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Firstly it would be my assumptiont that the views and vibe in every OWS movement would differ from state to state, this is not a good thing.
Imo they need a manifesto otherwise the movement can easily get hijacked just like what happened to the Tea party.

Also another issue is that I do not believe that the large majority of protestors are well educated on what they are fighting for.
So far some of the issues they seem to agree with are just things that would put the country even further in debt.
They want more entitlements but they will hate the state of the country if they got what they thought they deserved.

All in all, the bright side of this all is we are learning
We are learning alot in terms of what NOT to do when the real revolution happens.



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 06:41 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


I am not for OWS, because they don't stand for, believe in nor share my views on solutions.
The common theme for OWS is for Govt to step in and create more rules.
No thanks.
Got enough rules right now, that aren't enforced or cherry picked because those in Govt control want votes.

Show me Occupy White House, then I may look into supporting.
Until then, enjoy the cold of winter.



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 07:36 AM
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I think people are just afraid of change. Sure they like to hate the system but when the only system they know is threatened it scares them. Better the devil they know than the devil they don't, i think it really is that simple.



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 07:48 AM
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reply to post by Benevolent Heretic
 

Well said. My thoughts exactly. I cant fathom how they can't see the urgency for action. It's like watching a bus coming towards them and you jump and down and yell at the top of your voice "watch out!!!!!" and they just look at you like "its all good". Huh?



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 09:18 AM
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reply to post by beezzer
 



It's not the fact that there are protesters, l'il puddin', it's because their solutions are wrong.


lil' puddin?

:-)

so - what are these proposed OWS solutions - exactly? Because I keep hearing that they don't have any at all

or, that they have too many

or that they are disorganized, self-centered, lazy, unrealistic, what-have-you-yahoos...

what are their solutions - and how are they wrong? if you're going to make such a bold statement - seems like you might back it up with - something

hey beezzer :-)

in all seriousness - maybe they don't have any solutions. Or maybe they have too many - and they are each and every one of them wrong

way to miss the point of the whole movement - in my opinion. The way I see it, you have a rapidly growing mass that's showing up with a lot of questions - and anger

what could be more terrifying than a diffuse, angry, disillusioned mob that isn't quite sure what to ask or what to do - but they are sure there needs to be a change

The reasons are actually many - and there are people from incredibly diverse backgrounds showing up for this. In addition to those that actually put their boots on the ground there are many, many more supporting them in other ways - not the least of which is with their voices and with their pens

there are grandmothers that are baking the protesters cookies for pete's sake :-)

people with different political ideas, different religious ideas, different economic backgrounds, ages...GIs, some of the wealthy - all mixed in with your favorites: gypsies, tramps and thieves

:-)

No answers - maybe not even all the right questions. Just a diffuse fear mixed with anger and a sense that something is very wrong. What could be more honest? What could be more terrifying - to the right OR the left?

On the eve of the big campaign to wrest control of this government from whoever kinda has it now...

It's chaos - but for right now I see that as a strength

if this were a TV show - the Tea Party would come to it's senses - start manning the front lines at OWS and turn it into a giant potluck with celebrity speakers. Breaking bread with their hippie brothers - all of us united in a common cause...

:-)

Sometimes I really like TV

but seriously beezzer - what is the solution?



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 09:21 AM
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Originally posted by inthemixagain
Well said. My thoughts exactly. I cant fathom how they can't see the urgency for action. It's like watching a bus coming towards them and you jump and down and yell at the top of your voice "watch out!!!!!" and they just look at you like "its all good". Huh?

That is a very dangerous statement to make
You have clearly been indoctrinated to think like this

You sound just like Obama during the bailouts when he said "to do nothing would be irresponsible"
Because what he really meant was "we have to do something, the fact that that something is the most costly, corrupt and ineficient way to possibly to do it is irrevelant"

Some people were just happy because something was done and they didn't care what it was
And now partly because of the damage done we are back at square 1 as if absolutely nothing was learned

That's all you say, the urgency for action, but for everyone who says this that's all they say, they never talk about what the 'action' consists of.

Troubled times are ahead, the blame can definately go around
edit on 6-11-2011 by ModernAcademia because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 09:34 AM
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Originally posted by alexs
Example the vietnam protests had a defined goal to stop the mindless slaughter of young and old for some political gain .


Sorry, my "really bad rhetoric detector" just went off with a category four alarm.

Who was it that thought, Hey! I know! Let's start the mindless slaughtering of young and old! That will get me the political gain I desire!?

The persons who began that war were not Americans, were not capitalists, and were not industrialists.

Having a "sit in" on a college campus singing "All we are saying, is give peace a chance" was met by rolling eyes of TPTB who knew there had been no peace to try.

* Eisenhower sent military advisers to counter the Chinese advisers.
* Kennedy started throwing more American assets into the fight to help American allies and because he believed (rightly or wrongly) that NOT doing so would ultimately be worse for US interests.
* Johnson inherited the mess, and hated it. LBJ believed that American military might should be used with restraint because he believed (rightly or wrongly) that restraint would open the way for an acceptable cease fire. He hated the war, hated his job, hated the results of what he had tried to accomplish.
* Nixon entered office with a plan to do the best with what mess he inherited and get the US out of Vietnam.
* Ford oversaw the final stages of American withdraw.

All of the Commanders in Chief did the best they could for what they thought was the right thing to do.

How many singing peace songs on college campuses or on the Mall understood any of the complexities?

Very few. Some of the organizers of the peace rallies were sympathetic to the Communist belligerence which had begun the war-- but few of the protesters saw that connection or even knew of it, and so thought there was no reason to doubt the motives of their leaders.

The potential parallels to the Vietnam protests and OWS are not lost on us... Are they?



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 09:50 AM
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Originally posted by Unknown Soldier


Thoughts?




edit on 6-11-2011 by Unknown Soldier because: (no reason given)


Blatant propaganda. All the thick-necked catch phrases is a dead giveaway.

It could be true - not all propaganda is "lies". the best propaganda is gospel truth, just with the proper spin placed upon it.

Still, the first 45 seconds or so was so chock full of catch phrases - again, a dead giveaway - that I'm not going to waste precious time I could be using to be sleeping instead to watch the rest of the six-odd minutes. maybe I'll watch the whole thing later, after I wake up and stand a chance of being able to stomach it.




edit on 2011/11/6 by nenothtu because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 10:03 AM
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reply to post by TheWalkingFox
 


F&S to the Fox! First, I would like to go on record as a current supporter of the OWS movement.

On the other hand, while I agree with your premiss that the lack of support for the OWS movement here on ATS is somewhat lacking to say the least, at this point in time I think it is to be expected. Furthermore, until such time as the OWS movement can reach a consensus with respect to specific changes they would like to see enacted and develop a platform based on those demands, I don't expect to see any radical changes to their base of support. In this respect, the OWS movement shares the same lack of organizational skills as did the Tea Party movement which led to them being taken over by FreedomWorks and "Dick's" Armey. (It almost appears as though the fear of having their movement taken over by outside interest, is in itself, what's keeping them from organizing.)

Once the OWS movement develops a platform and elects a spokesperson, the decision of whether or not to support it will be much easier for some and clearly IMPOSSIBLE for others.

IMO, those on the right, (T.P./GOP) have signed so many "pledges" and drawn "so many lines in the sand" that they could never support the basic aspirations of the OWS movement and their opposition to it will only grow stronger with time. I mean how could they ever support any movement that also has the support of George Soros, ACORN and unions? These are their sworn enemies after all.

I believe that the OWS movement is actually the polar opposite of the T.P. movement in most respects and what we are witnessing is a "show down" of ideologies. In the long run, I'm confident that the anti-greed, anti-corporate personhood, people-first ideology of OWS will win out. All one has to do is to recognize the fact that the OWS movement has already gone global while the T.P. movement barely reached a boil before losing it's steam with respect to outside support. The rest of the world laughs at the Tea Party/GOP but joins the OWS movement, Go Figure!

But then who wouldn't laugh at a party that prioritizes crap like attaching anti-abortion language to every bill that comes before them or affirming that our national motto is "In God We Trust?" I mean, what the hell kind of a motto is that for a country with separation of church & state anyway? What's the matter with our de facto motto of "E Pluribus Unum" or how about "United We Stand?" Much more unifying mottos if you ask me. It's as if every action taken by the T.P./GOP is a direct attempt to draw a distinction between the "Us" and "Them," a mentality they promote and embrace.

The T.P./GOP and the 1%ers they so staunchly support will not give up their control over society without a fight and the OWS movement is nothing more than the masses lining up on the "People's" side of the "line in the sand" to fight that fight. No mistake about it, it's coming! Call it the New World Order or whatever you want but there is a global movement to "Put People First" and if I were a 1%er, I'd be looking for a safe place to hide.

I don't know about you but I see "Hope & Change" on the horizon. Go OWS!



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 10:15 AM
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reply to post by ModernAcademia
 



Imo they need a manifesto otherwise the movement can easily get hijacked just like what happened to the Tea party.


I'm not sure about that - sometimes a manifesto can been seen as a declaration of war

Sometimes the moment a manifesto shows up it becomes the death knell of that movement

if a real movement for change is going to survive and be functional it has to be fluid, flexible. It needs to be able to be reasonable, change, compromise...otherwise it dies - and sometimes a great many people die with it




edit on 11/6/2011 by Spiramirabilis because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 10:52 AM
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I haven't logged into ATS in a long, long time for the very reasons mentioned in the OP. Alot of members talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

Star and flag this !



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 11:14 AM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Here is the thing. You have the TEA Party, which has gone relatively quiet, you have OWS which is in the forefront. .. and not too long ago there was a group that attempted to do a Third Continental Congress. The handwriting is on the wall that We the People (as misguided and disorganized as we are) are all starting to agree that the system is broken. And has been broken for a long time.

I, myself, have known that there will be a war in this country since about 1986 or 1987. That there will be violence and blood on the streets. Back then, I always assumed that it was from outside influences. Originally I thought it would be another country. In time, I came to realize that the enemy was indeed ourselves.

If you look at the core complaints of both the TEA Party (before being co-opted to a political party) and OWS, there are some valid arguments to be found. But neither addresses everything to be said. Neither has finalized practical solutions. They both see greed as the core problem, but it is more than just greed.

In my opinion, the greatest of our problems (but not the only problem by far) in the US today is the lack of self-determination. Long gone are the days when a person can truly make their way in the world by the sweat of their brow. Yes, you can still be a farmer or an entrepreneur, but it isn't the same. Too many regulations and rules have to be adhered to in order to not be shut down. And I don't mean the dangerous things being prevented. But if you grow too much grain, you become punished. If you sell your gasoline too far below your competition the suppliers will stop supplying. Those sort of things. God forbid you have to hire someone to help you, because you just opened a tome of regulations, taxes, payment schemes and other government interferences to the healthy growth of your endeavor.

The point of people being against OWS is because many see things expressed that they do not like. And a big thing for me is that many of the "demands" cried out for if implemented would only create greater dependancy on a system that is already broken. Which would require deeper burdens on the people to supply the means to those demands.

One of the things that Thomas Jefferson wanted was for education to be provided for everyone at no cost to the individual. That it would be a regrettable burden of the taxpayer, but the trade off was an educated and productive society. The compromise was public schools (today K-12). Jefferson wanted college to be free for those that excelled in their studies. And by academic scholarships, some do attend college for free. However, there are very few in this country that receive as most scholarships are based on athletics. I, myself, could have been granted a full ride to the University of Tennessee provided I changed my major to Music (Education or Composition). The basis for that was not so much merit, but that I earned the admiration of Dr Julian for telling a good joke. I turned it down, despite having later to have to withdraw for financial reasons as well as inability to attend required classes for my major as preference was given to Seniors to use as a liberal arts dump class.

And while the above was a tangent, it also demonstrates the problems of preferential treatment. Which is a huge problem in this country as well. That often things are not done nor awarded on merit alone but on the old coat tails of nepotism and "politically correct" associations. And in that vein, OWS is asserting itself as such an association since it is in line with some of the more extreme ideologies of liberalism...ie socialism. And personally, I am not convinced that the original goal of the movement was a campaign trick for Obama's re-election in 2012 that has just spiraled out of control as more people joined the bandwagon. Time will tell if that suspicion was true or not. Question is if it would be reported in the mainstream media if it came to light.

Or maybe I have become too jaded for seeing schemes and machinations as the people of power do things to sway the masses that are too easily tricked into joining a cause without research to its purpose. So many what it is that do not like the most is that people become involved out of knee jerk reaction to hearing something that they liked without placing thought into the solution. Sort of how I say what makes a person famous is that enough people say they are and that causes others to believe it.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.

edit on 6-11-2011 by Ahabstar because: bbcode fix



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Ok I just found this entry in Biggovernment
That 1st video is awesome. Thank you for posting a link to it. I hope this is the direction Occupy is going. It's beautiful.

About the 2nd video, word.

Thank you. You have made my day.



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 11:46 AM
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Im sorry but, didn't you get the memo showing how the october 13th domain was registered to the United Nations building suite 518?, and that it proved that OWS is nothing more than a lucis trust play for the PTB whose motives in this are still unclear.
This is not a "grass roots" "spontaneous" movement, when it passes the smell test i will be right there with you.
It has not happened yet!.



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 11:46 AM
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reply to post by Ahabstar
 


Here is the thing. You have the TEA Party, which has gone relatively quiet, you have OWS which is in the forefront. .. and not too long ago there was a group that attempted to do a Third Continental Congress. The handwriting is on the wall that We the People (as misguided and disorganized as we are) are all starting to agree that the system is broken. And has been broken for a long time.


This is also what I see - but more than that, people so entrenched in their own ways of thinking they would rather oppose than listen - it's a knee-jerk reaction

People fear change - even when it's to make things better. And we all have a tendency to paint whatever is 'other' as 'enemy' then repackage their message to make it scarier than it is

Change doesn't come easy - and it's true - there's always the possibility of upheaval and violence

I don't see war. Maybe you'll see me as being naive on this point - but it won't go that far

This country survived the fight for unions - and that one was pretty violent. We love unions, we hate unions - but there was a time when you could work a man to death and pay him nothing - that goes for women and children too. Children...times change, thinking changes - labor laws changed- thankfully

The Civil Rights Movement didn't end in war - and right up until it really got going there were still lynchings in this country. The anti-war protests in the 60s resulted in the murder of student protesters. Kids - murdered - by their own government. We had 3 assassinations come out of those times - 3. And a president forced to resign...

Change never comes easy - but sometimes we gain something better from the process

What is or isn't worth the risk?

People opposed to OWS really aren't listening - they're just afraid. But the things being said affect all of us - and the enemy they name - if you can really call it an enemy - is the system

It's the system that's got to change - and that is up to all of us

I agree with you completely on this



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 11:53 AM
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A large number of ATS are still attached to the MSM and others think that just because someone has put money into something (like Soros or Acorn) that they control the movement. Everyone's trying to influence this "movement" - but the fundamentals of why people are protesting are not left or right. Simplest slogan yet captures the meaning, "Banks got bailed out, we got sold out".

This is all part of a long, ongoing process. A good number of people have migrated away from MSM; there's no reason whatsoever to NOT believe that just as many people will migrate away from Main Stream Banks.

The real fun is just beginning.



posted on Nov, 6 2011 @ 11:57 AM
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reply to post by Unknown Soldier
 
Yes, lock them up. Lock up the politicians too. I would say lock up those just following orders, but they have been manipulated. We can easily make room for all these criminals by releasing those that are a product of their abuse. Release the the pot users and dealers. There is no reason a person should go to jail for pot alone.
edit on 6-11-2011 by gentledissident because: (no reason given)



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