ATS and OWS: What the heck, ATS?

Originally posted by lokdog
I think people are just afraid of change. Sure they like to hate the system but when the only system they know is threatened it scares them. Better the devil they know
than the devil they don't, i think it really is that simple.

Unfortunately, the OWS doesn't really know what they want other than to be hand fed by the government.

In answer to some other posts... Because these goobers are standing and milling around, putting crap in bags for the established businesses to deal with, shouting and making noise... This all does not make them revolutionaries. No... I'm not afraid of change, but i do wonder at the lack of planning and realistic outcome of the OWS and their idea of change.

reply to post by sigung86

Lack of planning? Perhaps...but the fact is that there is major economic inequality...and don't even start telling me that rich kids born into trust funds have a right to the amount of money they make off of their stocks more than someone who has been working his ass off building houses his entire life...only to have them become a commodity for paper pushers in the banking industry...pfft...

After 19 pages of an arduous read -- where some conversation has actually occurred among those actually trying to learn; I find this from JPZ to be the highlight of what happens when you are faced with a zealot of any movement.

Those who share similar ideals as I do know precisely what I am talking about, and all of us are supposed to somehow cow-tow to this insidious ad hominem fest and hang our heads in shame, reject our carefully thought out ideals and join a confused movement.

Calls such as "Why do you support the elite?" -- which have been answered by those it was levied against -- were summarily dismissed and ignored because it didn't fit their agenda.

I respect the OPs initial thought out post -- they were asking a question and seeking answers. Those that came to discuss have done so masterfully, on both sides. Then there are the hardliners on both sides that haven't sought to discuss and bring a coherent argument, but rather produce noise.

As another said here, it is amazing how someone could say so much without saying anything at all.

have a look at how closed minded these people are and how they have a strategy to shut down anybody wanting to discuss some serious points that everybody needs to be made aware of and come to a decision over the facts on their own.


I'm sorry but till this movement lives up to some of the fake ideals they were presenting like TRANSPARENCY, and EVERYBODY HAVING A VOICE, and while they are at it they can explain why they are floundering so much here in canada. almost all of them are under threat of being shut down and victoria's is looking incredibly vulnerable with how pathetic it is.

reply to post by TheLastStand
Well, if you're going to double post, I'll just quote my reply from the other post.

Originally posted by gentledissident
reply to post by TheLastStand

 

Who's the loud obnoxious guy? These are the people you are up against, Occupy. They will not accept a socialistic democracy and will fight it violently. You are also asking the people who make the rules to benefit themselves to change the rules to benefit you. How do think that will work out? Yes it's great to have Soros and Moore behind you. I had no idea you also had The UN. However, this is a small amount of power compared to what you are up against. The power is so small, it requires you to fight the battle. The bank run idea is brilliance. How about a run on capitalism? See you on the commune.

reply to post by gentledissident


Why do you want a Socialist democracy?

Originally posted by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi

Originally posted by beezzer
reply to post by TheWalkingFox

 

It's not the fact that there are protesters, l'il puddin', it's because their solutions are wrong.

They are protestors, NOT revolutionaries. They demand change, but they can't implement it. That's why there needs to be the next step.

edit on 6-11-2011 by Dimitri Dzengalshlevi because: (no reason given)

I disagree. They are revolutionaries demanding socialism. It will become more violent as time goes on. It is Marxist based as well.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Ok I just found this entry in Biggovernment and the whole Direct Democracy is even more central to the OWS theme than I thought.

biggovernment.com...

I'll have to watch those when I get home - not enough bandwidth here. The very concept of "collective liberty" is the most bizarre oxymoron I've ever heard, and I just have to see how in the devil they can wiggle around that!

Yes, exactly, somehow even after forcibly redistributing everyone's paycheck and calling for a cap on personal wealth, they believe they are for freedom and liberty. Anything collective is not really based in individual liberty. Either they are kidding themselves or they are trying to kid the rest of the world.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by gentledissident

 

Why do you want a Socialist democracy?

I want both necessities and freedom guaranteed. What we have now is a system of winners and losers, where the winners take the freedoms from the losers. I guess that's fine for any sociopath, but I'm not one. Sure. I understand freedom includes sociopaths and those who worship them. They should have a right to go play that abusive game with each other, if that is how they chose to survive. They make for great entertainment too.

reply to post by woodwardjnr

I'm not sure how I feel about the whole occupy movement, here in the UK it seems to be very peaceful and is not causing offense to anyone

All the professional fecal disturbers left Europe and are now in the States.

Originally posted by gentledissident

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
reply to post by gentledissident

 

Why do you want a Socialist democracy?

I want both necessities and freedom guaranteed. What we have now is a system of winners and losers, where the winners take the freedoms of the losers. I guess that's fine for any sociopath, but I'm not one. Sure. I understand freedom includes sociopaths and those who worship them. They should have a right to go play that abusive game with each other, if that is how they chose to survive. They make for great entertainment too.

edit on 6-11-2011 by gentledissident because: (no reason given)

So you expect the winners to guarantee your personal well-being and living? Or you expect anybody to guarantee it? You feel you are entitled to have your living arrangements guaranteed by the State? and why? This desire for the Nanny State to guarantee everything cradle to grave just is mind-boggling. Don't you want to be self reliant, or do you want someone else to control everything and decide what job you have, your health care, how much electricity you get, where you live? That is all inherent within the Socialist State. Just ask anybody from the former USSR. You think you are just going to get free food water and a great job and the Nanny State will not be involved in every aspect of your life?

Originally posted by ModernAcademia
Firstly it would be my assumptiont that the views and vibe in every OWS movement would differ from state to state, this is not a good thing.
Imo they need a manifesto otherwise the movement can easily get hijacked just like what happened to the Tea party.

Also another issue is that I do not believe that the large majority of protestors are well educated on what they are fighting for.
So far some of the issues they seem to agree with are just things that would put the country even further in debt.
They want more entitlements but they will hate the state of the country if they got what they thought they deserved.

All in all, the bright side of this all is we are learning
We are learning alot in terms of what NOT to do when the real revolution happens.

I think you are right, I think some of the OWS are naive about this stuff, while the organizers and the hard core know exactly what they are doing.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
So you expect the winners to guarantee your personal well-being and living? Or you expect anybody to guarantee it? You feel you are entitled to have your living arrangements guaranteed by the State? and why?

I expect the government to guarantee it becuase I am of this species. I realize a large chunk of this species doesn't care about the rest of it. In this system, that is a great way to get to the top and perpetuate that attitude. I expect it, but I don't expect it. There is no way to change the ruling class. They are mired in selfishness, greed, corruption, and power. They have networks of well funded power. They have paid and voluntary henchmen. Occupy is wasting its time with peaceful protest. It would be wasting its life with violent protest. It can only leave the system and actually start this world many of us want.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Excellent post; good question. I have an ex whom I have a sort of friendly relationship with. He simply does not get it. He believes that OWS is all dirty commie hippie pinko fags. He has a good job, a soul sucking kind of one, but what the heck, you gotta do what you gotta do. He and most of my acquaintances like him just do not see the problem. They have their homes, have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, don't believe in hand-outs, yadda, yadda, yadda. I caution them all that they are only a heartbeat away from being destitute.

I know this is true because I have seen it happen to others in my social and family circle. You get sick or injured, you lose your job, you lose your health insurance. You can't get help from Social Security for about 3 years. By that time you are broke, homeless and probably still sick and/or injured. Yet, those I talk to still don't think it can ever happen to them.

They also don't realize that there is no job security. They are, each and every one of them only a keystroke away from being unemployed. They still don't get it.

I think that the problem with those who post their disparaging diatribes here, not the instigators but the ones with real opinions, are just in denial. To accept how precariously we all balance is just too frightening, so they, the naysayers just look the other way and pretend that they are somehow magically insulated from our economic screwing. Simply in denial by the way is just how the government likes us; complacent and stupid. I personally try to be neither.

Fire up that flat-screen kids and bring me a beer.

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus This desire for the Nanny State to guarantee everything cradle to grave just is mind-boggling. Don't you want to be self reliant, or do you want someone else to control everything and decide what job you have, your health care, how much electricity you get, where you live?

In answer to your edit..."Nanny State" is just a name implying we are week members of the species. It doesn't work on me. I want to contribute to keeping our automated society going, so I can have free time to do the things I want. I'm sorry if your vision includes being told what job to do and where to live. I'm sorry if the amount of free and green energy generated for you might not be enough. What would you need so much for? I'm sorry if you interpret freedom and equality as a bad thing.

Originally posted by jaguarsky they are only a heartbeat away from being destitute.

Through my job, I get to see this happen. Those who lost a lot and have to work down with the rest of still try to be tyrants. They think that being rude, demanding, and impatient is the key to success. Apparently it used to be. I've witnessed some rude awakenings. Some have even specialized so much, they can't function without an assistant.

reply to post by TheWalkingFox


Many people on this site are fatalist losers who are only interested in complaining about the status quo; activism and action is anathema to their "woe is me" ethos. Seriously, no matter what is happening, these people automatically go into 'the futility of it all' type of thinking so they can continue sitting on their butts and whine on the internet (which is about as active these type of people will ever get).

Originally posted by ThirdEyeofHorus
Why do you want a Socialist democracy?

Because people are more fun and clever when they don't have to worry about paying the bills or worry about their next meal...this individualistic crap is lame...I will hang out with people who like other people...rather than those who want to brag about who they are...

Originally posted by nenothtu
Don't cry about opposition if you're not willing to garner support, then!

People too apathetic and lazy to sit longer than ten seconds would not be giving their support anyway, is what I'm saying.

Gotta get their attention before you start schooling them on the intricacies of the branching, The Civil Rights illustration is an imperfect choice - there weren't nearly as many unrelated branchings in it as OWS is demonstrating. People aren't getting to see your core issue because one or another, and sometimes multiples, of those unrelated branch issues are poking them in the eyes first.

Of course, I take your "advice" with a salt lick. As someone already set on disagreeing with the entire thing, I just expect you to notice the one guy with a "free Mumia!" sign, and miss the hundred or so around him with signs decrying the bribery in our politics, and the pro-poverty policy it engenders. Yes, there are people out there "doing their own thing." Oh well. It happens when you get an event rolling. You do understand that protests that aren't Koch Brothers photo-ops tend to bring together a lot of varied people who might, on occasion, miss the tracks?

Sure I am! Aren't you the one who schooled me on how the Russian revolution was completed from conception to mop up in 13 days? Just drafting a single amendment ought to be child's play compared to that.

Well, you'd specified the October Revolution. The entire Russian revolution took a bit longer Plus, well, the Russians were shooting, and were basing everything off a book written fifty years prior.

Things require debate. This can take a while. This is, again, a function of reality that many Americans seem remiss on.

Further, it has become glaringly apparent that this thing has been in the planning stages for far longer than the 50 or so days they've had mobs in the streets. It seems to me they perhaps ought to have had a more solid plan to lead in with, but that's probably just me.

"They've been planning it for a long time!" doesn't really mesh well with "There's no focus!" you know. Unless by "planing" you mean something like what I pointed out in my OP, "someone should do something!"

Yup, public election fund, to be apportioned among the candidates. each fund to be at the level of the election the candidate is running in - Federal, State, or Local, although in the current conception, it's more focused on the Federal level. States and localities may have their own ideas, and since the politicians elected at those levels are limited to action at those levels, I see no reason to ignore the 10th Amendment. Let the People have the politicians they want, so long as they don't have the power to reach and harm the rest of us.

Since local politics are smaller, they tend to be easier to corrupt. Since their impact on the people is more immediate, that corruption tends to cause more damage. Take for instance, Scott Walker. Ron Johnson and Herb Kohl might be bought off in the senate, but it's the governor being bought off that's doing damage. This factor is even more damaging in municipalities and states where judges are elected. So I really do think "local" public election funds are necessary as well

Call me naive, but I have a simple solution to all our problems....ready?........okay, here we go; ban lobbyists. Right now congress is bought and paid for by them, as we all know. Corporations are doing as exactly what they should be, making money. That is their sole purpose. However, because we allow legal bribery aka lobbyism, they get to make AND break their own laws at their leisure.
Enough of this liberal, conservative, democrat, republican mumbo jumbo! We are more than a freaking word and we should all want the same thing...a fair chance. I personally think that those who vocally oppose the OWS and like organizations are comfortable in their lives and think for some silly reason...media maybe... that someone wants to take something from them. Pure drivel. I can't wait until these people see how impossible it will be for their great-grandkids to make a living; even with an expensive education and a conservative stamp on their forehead. Maybe then they will see the only party that matters is the human pary. Sadly, by then we will have sunked so deep that our great-grandkids will probably call us communists and dismiss us too.

Forgive my bad grammar. They university said my grammar will not improve untill my loans are paid off