RE: Every thread complaining about OWS

reply to post by beezzer


Can you get a day off to drive to Cologne as an occupation there is currently active?

Originally posted by OutKast Searcher
I'm sorry...but if you want to convince us the majority aren't stupid...please show us evidence.

So, you self proclaim YOUR opinion as the majority and actually believe that?

If that doesn't sound like a shill I don't know what does. I rarely use that word too.

Edit: Not sure, maybe I'm misunderstanding you. Either way, I don't really want to play these games anymore.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
Those that have posted to this saying smaller this and less constraints here have not offered or presented one solution to all of the problems and issues we face today and continue to offer none.

Agreed we can argue untill the cows come home, but it is still not going to bring a soulution to the problem, we are HomoSapiens (thinking man) arent we?

If I had to present you with a soulution to this problem it would be an RBE Resorce Bassed Economy. Here is a thread i recently made on it.

My Thread (please post questions)

No to me money is a courupt system, I dont want to resay all the things i said so read my previous post Here

But it seams that the time line of money since the Great Depression has alway had recessions as can be seenHere so to me fighting for a system where evreything is equal is still fighting for a system that has great vulnerbillties and a system that is garenteed to colapse agian. To me an RBE is the best way for evreyone to have what they want, work alot less and free education and travel.

BUT! the only way this can work is if it is implemented on a global scale doing it a little at a time would not work at all, or jsut making one country have it also would be setting it up to fail. all money has to be abolished for ti to work. and coins would be melt down to make medical equitment, research equitment, materials for art or music.

Which to me is kinda ironic becuase the things that we where using to buy money with we are now making out of money.


Please post you solutions, i can't wait to hear them all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

While I have every sympathy with the OWS movement, they need to get organized. Right now they are too spread out. Within each city or geographic region, their concerns may be specific, but the movement as a whole is still incoherent. I don't think anyone in the US needs to be reminded that this is exactly how the American Revolution started. Long lists of grievances directed at the King, but no cohesive message or action among the colonies at first.

OWS is on the right track, though, and we can't condemn them for trying to do something about it. To all the people who say they should be directing their anger at the government, well, what are you waiting for? Go start your own movement.

My presumptuous advice to the OWS is this: winter is coming. Take that time to call a Continental Congress of sorts. Get organized. Sit down with each other and plan a strategy. Take a page out of the Tea Party's playbook, distasteful as that may be: run for office. That is the ONLY way you're going to change anything at the pith and core. Anything less is just operating but leaving the disease behind. Each country has its own movement that's no better organized, but they could do the same thing.

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by beezzer

 

Will you promise to go to just one just to see what's good?

My CO would probably have a wee issue with that.

reply to post by TheImmaculateD1


That's fair enough, but how will taxing the rich heavily, enable any form of job creation? If the rich (by rich I shall refer to company owners and CEO's) get taxed heavily, what incentive is there to better yourself? What incentive is there to even set up a company? So where do the jobs come from and do you then pay the head's of these companies 20K for looking after a whole comapny? Do you have any idea what kind of work is involved? So where do you cap the wage? 50k? 100K? 500K? Here in the UK higher tax comes in, I believe, after 42K...If you're a worker not eligible for any state help i.e. born in this country and are a tax payer, 42K gets you by, but it certainly isn't a lavish lifestyle, not if you have kids, pay private rent/mortgage and want to eat every day.

I agree that change has to come about, but it has to be change that favours working over being idle. It has to be a policy of you get help if you contribute, unless you're physically/mentally unable to contribute or obviously have retired and paid in all your lives, not if you just want to drain the state by churning out 10 kids at a time and play on your PS3 all day! There is work out there, but people seem hell bent on chasing that six figure dream, while in the same sentence curse the people that currently hold those positions.

As I have said before, we all need to change before we can demand change and I think people underestimate the amount of greedy, bone idle Humans there are in the world and a good many of them are supporting this cause because it demands for nothing more than the rich, many of whom have worked day and night to get their fortune, to give up most of it so it can be redistributed to people who simply want to play the victim card!
There is nothing in that list that counters the heavy tax burden on workers, the relentless propaganda that every country's population is lazy and that's why we're swamped with migrants wanting a piece of the worker's blood cake thus lowering the working wage! We're being systematically levelled out so that all we have is rich and poor and it is because so many of you see what they want you to see!

Bank bailouts! Government war's aborad! Greed and greed! It's all more propaganda that you can protest against. They don't want you to see the real issues! The massive rises in crime! The mass taxation! The destruction of consumer purchasing power! The mass influx of migrants in to every town and port causing clashes as they are given everything that the local has to beg for! The outsourcing of thousands of jobs abroad! The encouraging of benefit recievers while blaming them for the open door immigration policy!

Its all a set up to level out low wage cost for business, to destroy national identity that encourages nationalism and unity, replace that with division and then place it under the most extreme authoritarian regime you can imagine! To them we are simply generic drones, we are nothing more, here to serve as workers and to reproduce and then die!

How do I know all this? I work in the Public Sector (various departments including the Police) and have done for 12 years!

They don't care about your pitiful protests! They know it will amount to nothing and I honestly believe that if it did amount to something it would simply bring a whole new mess!

There is something about the OWS that is noble and it could gain ground, but you need to look around you, look at the average working men and women. The workers will forever be the key to change, without a worker friendly movement then you don't have general workers support and without them, this movement is nothing, it will amount to a load of protesters going home in the new year having gained as much ground as they did before it even started! Every country's government has a duty to look after their own people, but their own people has a duty to look after themselves and in turn, their country. We are failing on all fronts!

Originally posted by TheImmaculateD1
reply to post by beezzer

 

Can you get a day off to drive to Cologne as an occupation there is currently active?

Work and family preclude any protest activities. The point is, my participation won't alter the message. And it is the message that I have an issue with.

Originally posted by SecretFace
reply to post by TheImmaculateD1

 

That's fair enough, but how will taxing the rich heavily, enable any form of job creation?

The rich don't create jobs anyway--that is a convenient myth. The demand for products and services creates jobs.

If the rich (by rich I shall refer to company owners and CEO's) get taxed heavily, what incentive is there to better yourself? What incentive is there to even set up a company? So where do the jobs come from and do you then pay the head's of these companies 20K for looking after a whole comapny? Do you have any idea what kind of work is involved?

I doubt it's worth 300 times the median salary of the American worker. Let's see, get paid to sit on your butt all day, push buttons on a computer screen, exercise your brain cells by devising a new tulip scheme, and go golfing...while writing it off as a business expense. LOL And when said company gets into financial trouble for being stupid, get rewarded even more or get a golden parachute, then move on and destroy another company.

I agree that change has to come about, but it has to be change that favours working over being idle. It has to be a policy of you get help if you contribute, unless you're physically/mentally unable to contribute or obviously have retired and paid in all your lives, not if you just want to drain the state by churning out 10 kids at a time and play on your PS3 all day! There is work out there, but people seem hell bent on chasing that six figure dream, while in the same sentence curse the people that currently hold those positions.

That is certainly not true. One of my friends is married with 5 children. The oldest is a senior in college, the youngest in 5th grade. Between her and her husband, they made a decent living...until. BOTH of them lost their jobs. At this point, she's willing to scrub toilets (her words)--she doesn't care, as long as its work.

Just through the first page... The OP never said if you don't agree with OWS you are stupid, sheeple, shills, etc.........

The OP said that if you disagree with OWS then get up off your a$$, go down to your local OWS, and start vocalizing your opinion, hand out your version of the facts to the other people in the street and try to educate...

The OP said stop your meaningless complaining and get involved in a way that will accomplish something, all of you people twisting it to seem like an attack on people who don't support OWS should realize that the OP is actually encouraging your view points be recognized in a way that might help...

Sadly there are two groups, the ones who drank the koolaid, and the ones who see things as they are. The two will never agree until the former realize they are on the same side of the fence as the rest of us.

reply to post by WielderOfTheSwordOfTruth


A few people on here have actually tried this. They went down to their local OWS and after talking with people noticed flaws with the methodology and application of the protest, but as soon as they expressed these worries they were asked to leave.

reply to post by wagnificent


while a thread that specifically opposes OWS protests will get me riled, I don't beleive active participation by everyone who agrees/wants to get the ball rolling with OWS and anything having to do with it, should be made mandatory by someone saying; "Do something about it by doing this exact thing or else what your doing is compared to idly sitting by." I do many things to fight TPTB and help change the system, but each and everyway someone chooses to help is different because we are all in a different position and bound to end up having a different soloution for each and every thing.

reply to post by wagnificent


More of the "you're either with us or against us" rhetoric. Your argument is essentially "you can't defeat a tyranny without first bonding with it".

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't have to hug a snake to know that it's going to bite me if I give it a chance.

I can just look at it, see that it's a snake, and realize that snakes bite people.

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl
I'll bite.

It is VERY immature of the OWS supporters to constantly say things along the lines of "It's obvious...if you don't support us, it means there is something WRONG with YOU."

*We're Sheeple.
*We're stupid.
*We're sitting in front of the computer in our undies eating doritos.
*We're shills.
*We're plants, sent in by TPTB to complain.
*We're obviously part of the 1%.
*We're greedy, and don't care about anyone.

This argument is a failure, and makes those of you making it look petty.

Can you not understand that I can disagree with you without being ANY of the things I listed above?????

reality check time.... Both sides are saying this about the other side... Am I really the only one that sees that?

Both sides are calling each other the exact same names...

It's time to get over all of our individual biases and for us all to take a step back and look at it objectively. Let's all stop the name calling, figure out what needs to be fixed and then fix it.

This is what "they" want... They want us to be to busy attacking each other, to actually make any real difference... Seems to be working pretty well...

United we stand, divided we fall, all that....

It's divide and conquer and until we both quit attacking each other with petty name calling, not much will be done and the problems will continue....

EVERYONE needs to get over themselves.... COME TOGETHER!!!!

Originally posted by wagnificent

I did call people who choose not to participate "sheople." Is it invalid to say that a person who has given up their potential for leadership is choosing to be a follower?

Yes. Just because I choose not to "lead" that which you want me to lead, it doesn't naturally follow that I must be a "follower" of it. As a matter of fact, caving to that insistence would itself make me a follower, being directed by what someone else thinks he should do, rather than do what he knows he needs to do.

Originally posted by GonzoSinister

These people are not hippies
these people are not commies
these people do not have a socialist agenda

These are normal People standing up to a long drawn out explotation of the masses through taxes and closed underhanded banking and trading deals....

If you're trying to convince me they are not "commies" or "have a socialist agenda", it might be best to avoid phrases like "exploitation of the masses"...

Just my thoughts (and every sane western exploited human beings)

Oh goody! Now I can add "insane" to the list of things OWS supporters claim are wrong with me because I don't support their futile efforts!

Care for a Dorito?

reply to post by beezzer


When you get some downtime and shore leave do cheque out an action event. Don't do anything to irk your CO as since you are more then likely at Rammstein means you can't really participate as seeing how you are on current active status. Don't mess this gig up, it'll be the best gig you ever get!

very good post.
people are so full of propaganda
that they can not see past their nose.

I think the argument is useless. One side says, " You're a shill for your corporate masters!" The other side claims that we're all hemp clothed, bongo playing commie scum, as if McCarty era politics were still considered intellectually significant. I think, however, the facts point to a few things we can agree upon.

OWS is poorly organized.
OWS has begun to factionalize around the organizations that support it, wether the unions. ACORN, or well meaning charity orgs.
The political system based on corporate handshaking is working poorly.
The biggest possibility for change must come from the people, and not themsame political system that is failing.

That said, the consumer economy is partly to blame, as many opponents have stated but the real problems have arisen from poor banking practices and the glass celing being built over the middle class. I understand that the state of things can get you mad, fellow supporters, and it seems natural to respond to the personal attacks made by many of our opponents, but it's imperative that we not respond. This forum is not, on it's own going to change anything, sonlets consider using it as an intellectual sounding board for ideas. There are some very bright minds on both sides of the fence, and we need to admit that some of the oppositions points are valid. That doesn't mean we should agree, but that we should evolve and address these concerns. We have a good thing going, but it can be better. I've had a few good conversations, but must also admit that I've done my share of mudslinging, and it's not hard to guess which was more productive. Consider, every time you let the poorly informed among the opposition to lure you into saying something inflammatory, you give them one more tasty morsel to attest to our immaturity. And for the love of Eris, stop saying sheeple. It's so elitist.

Originally posted by WielderOfTheSwordOfTruth
Just through the first page... The OP never said if you don't agree with OWS you are stupid, sheeple, shills, etc.........

The OP said that if you disagree with OWS then get up off your a$$, go down to your local OWS, and start vocalizing your opinion, hand out your version of the facts to the other people in the street and try to educate...

The OP said stop your meaningless complaining and get involved in a way that will accomplish something, all of you people twisting it to seem like an attack on people who don't support OWS should realize that the OP is actually encouraging your view points be recognized in a way that might help...

I was going to try to clarify myself again, but you did it for me. Thank you.

Originally posted by nenothtu
reply to post by wagnificent

 

More of the "you're either with us or against us" rhetoric. Your argument is essentially "you can't defeat a tyranny without first bonding with it".

Thanks, but no thanks. I don't have to hug a snake to know that it's going to bite me if I give it a chance.

I can just look at it, see that it's a snake, and realize that snakes bite people.

You have taken my words out of context, much like many of the other people on here who have extracted quotes and misinterpreted them to make their own point. It must be difficult to knock down a straw man, Leonidas.

You point your finger at me and accuse me of creating a dichotomy, then your snake metaphor makes your post reek of irony. No argument I can provide is likely to change your view, so I hope you can find peace on your island.



I didn't quote the person who wrote about this, but I do admit that every way of becoming involved, even if it's just on ATS, is in some way meaningful. However what I am trying to say in this thread is that active face-to-face participation is irreplaceable because of the human element involved. I am also aware that dissent is not always welcome, even among occupiers, and I apologize to anyone who has been mistreated at an occupy event while trying to express their opinion. I genuinely want everyone's voice to be given weight. If I have somehow come across as dismissive of the people who disagree with the occupy movement, I assure you that it was unintentional. We are all human here, and I'm simply trying to encourage people to peacefully engage one another.