RE: Every thread complaining about OWS

There has been an obnoxious amount of complaining going on about the occupy movement recently, so I decided to start this thread rather than express my response to these complaints in every one of those threads individually.

Trying to undermine the occupy movement is pointless, especially via ATS. It must be pretty obvious by now that this movement is not going away. Why? Because there are things that need to be settled, and until those things are settled, there will be no business as usual. For many people, surviving everyday life is barely even feasible, much less the possibility of flourishing. Whether you agree that the American Dream is dead or not, many people think it is, and that's enough to get them in the streets for weeks on end.

It's clear that things are going to have to change one way or another, and the occupy movement is essentially deciding what those changes will be. Maybe it will result in a police state or a democracy, or maybe it result in something entirely new that we have not witnessed on Earth before. Obviously not everyone agrees about what this new thing should look like, and therein lies the problem.

If you don't like the way people are acting in the Occupy movement, and you decide to just "withdraw" from it, you are actively deciding to become a sheople. If you want your voice to count, you have to participate. Plain and simple. If you don't like what occupiers are saying, then you have even more reason to go to an occupation. Why? Because an integral part of democracy is dissent. Occupiers are dissenting against the government, thereby participating in democracy. If you think their views are wrong, then it is in your own interest to speak up and show them why they are wrong.

Everyone in this country has a vested interest in what happens at these rallies because they will decide the future of the country. If occupiers get what they want, and it's the opposite of what you want, guess where that leaves you? Assed out. And you will have absolutely no one to blame but yourself. Of course we would probably see an exponential increase in threads of people whining about how they got screwed over by occupiers, but there will be no tears shed for those people because they made their own choices. If you crap in your own bed, then you have to lay in it.

Change does not happen on ATS, and it obviously doesn't happen in the polls or the voting booth. Change happens face-to-face with other people, and that's what the occupy movement is facilitating. If you choose not to interact, you are choosing to be subordinate to the winner, whether that is the government or the occupiers.

Since many of these complaint threads see things in only black and white, I will lay out the choices for occupy-haters in those same terms. Either go to an occupy movement and actively educate people, or sit at your computer and idly complain. If you choose to just complain, then don't be surprised when the "evil socialists" take over. It really is that simple.

Sometimes pics tell more ...these people are DOING something..and OWS bashers are killing boredom and stuck up in slave mentality
www.mercurynews.com...

reply to post by wagnificent


Well said, plenty of us feel the same. Sadly you are wasting your breath, as the people you are complaining about refuse to listen or be objective. they have been handed talking points, and that's all you are going to hear from them. It would be funny if it wasn't so damn sad.

reply to post by xavi1000

Sometimes pics tell more ...these people are DOING something..and OWS bashers are killing boredom and stuck up in slave mentality

Yup, and if they'd shut up long enough to listen, they'd see that they themselves, as selfish as they are, would also benefit from the system being fixed, or at the very least, even. They themselves would get to keep more of their hard earned dollars.

they are so adamant about not giving a dime to anyone who thinks along the lines of OWS, but sure as hell want to fight for the governments right to take that money, unperportionately, and hand it over to private industry as SOCIALIST BAILOUTS.

In their never ending cries of communism and socialism, they failed to notice the Us turn to Fascism. The second tax payer money was handed to the banks it became Fascist by definition.

Nice thread. Your right OP. People can agree and disagree on things about OWS, but at least these people are doing something. They are fighting for peoples' rights and for people who can't fight to protect their rights. Is that so hard to comprehend? I don't think so. Besides, OWS isn't all that bad despite what people say about it. Look at how many politicians and top notch CEOs are showing their true colors. No change my @$$.

reply to post by wagnificent


"I don't vote. Wanna know why? Because if you vote then you have no right to complain!"- George Carlin

I see a lot of non voters/non supporters here that just want to complain rather than offer solutions. They aren't even interested in hearing about things that do not involve Occupy.

I'll bite.

It is VERY immature of the OWS supporters to constantly say things along the lines of "It's obvious...if you don't support us, it means there is something WRONG with YOU."

*We're Sheeple.
*We're stupid.
*We're sitting in front of the computer in our undies eating doritos.
*We're shills.
*We're plants, sent in by TPTB to complain.
*We're obviously part of the 1%.
*We're greedy, and don't care about anyone.

This argument is a failure, and makes those of you making it look petty.

Can you not understand that I can disagree with you without being ANY of the things I listed above?????

From my distant view from Europe I got the impression, that many Americans always complain about the situation, especially here on ATS, but if it is about change they fear the slightest shift.
The fact alone that some of their country men go out into the streets and vocalize their concerns seems to be so disturbing that they fear the end of the world.

Reminds me to an old lady I used to know, who did not understand the politics and simply voted what everybody else used to vote for since decades. Every now and then she used to say "Children, children, the world is tumbling!"

Why should the USA not have a totalitarian system if people fear protests anyway?

Having said that: You are quite right, OP.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl


It makes you lucky. I remember discussing this with another member recently. I told him that I felt a person should live by their own means. Buy what you need, and save for what you want. He agreed. Then I told him what I'm against. Saving for what you need, and not wanting anything more than food/heat. Never mind saving for something you want. Have you ever stopped to realize that good people in this country right now can't find jobs, and can't afford their needs?

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl

I'll bite.

It is VERY immature of SOME the OWS supporters to constantly say things along the lines of "It's obvious...if you don't support us, it means there is something WRONG with YOU."

*We're Sheeple.
*We're stupid.
*We're sitting in front of the computer in our undies eating doritos.
*We're shills.
*We're plants, sent in by TPTB to complain.
*We're obviously part of the 1%.
*We're greedy, and don't care about anyone.

This argument is a failure, and makes those of you making it look petty.

Can you not understand that I can disagree with you without being ANY of the things I listed above?????



Corrected for you. I don't think that way at all.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

 

It makes you lucky. I remember discussing this with another member recently. I told him that I felt a person should live by their own means. Buy what you need, and save for what you want. He agreed. Then I told him what I'm against. Saving for what you need, and not wanting anything more than food/heat. Never mind saving for something you want. Have you ever stopped to realize that good people in this country right now can't find jobs, and can't afford their needs?

? Lucky?

That's a new one. I don't support OWS because I'm LUCKY??????????

Did you see the article showing some of the addresses of some of the people who have been arrested for their part in the OWS movement? Many of them are "luckier" than me.

We are ALL LUCKY that we were born in America.

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl


How dare I suggest that luck plays a role in anything! Those addresses probably belong to parents, and by that reasoning anyone in NYC is luckier than you. Cost of living is extremely high.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

 

How dare I suggest that luck plays a role in anything! Those addresses probably belong to parents, and by that reasoning anyone in NYC is luckier than you. Cost of living is extremely high.

Those houses are also much bigger than mine. The dollar amount is not the issue.

MAYBE those houses belong to their parents, maybe not. Still not the point. I've heard how some people are "lucky" to be born into plenty, and others are "unlucky" to be born into poverty. By those standards, these are the "lucky." I don't know how you could say otherwise.

I lived in a trailer in the mountains of rural Virginia throughout elementary and high school. For the first part of the time we were there, we didn't have running water, flushing toilets, or electricity, until we could get a well dug, a septic tank built, and electricity put in. So don't talk to me about "lucky".

reply to post by GeorgiaGirl


In NYC you pay half a million for a shack. Wake up hon!

Oh boohoo honey. I grew up in the mountains of WV, in a house that my Dad built with his own hands. We lived in a motor home for the three years that it took him to build it. We always had food, and always had heat. It's getting to the point that people can't work to support themselves. It's happening in places where it shouldn't be happening, and that's a problem for me.

So let me get this straight.

If you don't support OWS, you are stupid and please shut up....is that about right?


Sorry...I don't get involved in movements that aren't well organized. I won't be associated with any and all groups that decide to become involved with OWS.

Because then I would have to do exactly what you (and many others) are doing...trying to defend a movement that can't be defended. Because anything you try to defend to say something isn't "part of OWS" or that "OWS doesn't stand for that"...somwhere...someone is saying the exact opposite.

You can call me a "sheeple" all you want...but at least I know what I stand for and what solutions I want...and that is more than you can say for OWS.

Originally posted by Evolutionsend
reply to post by GeorgiaGirl

 

In NYC you pay half a million for a shack. Wake up hon!

Then move if you can't afford it or get a better job
where you can.

Don't be mad about it. Like it is not your fault you can not afford it.

reply to post by popsmayhem


If everyone leaves, there will be jobs open. If jobs are open, people want them. If people can't afford to live there, then they commute. If people can't afford to commute, then they can't take the job. The whole thing is messed up from front to back. I'm sorry you can't see that.

Kudos to you, OP for starting this thread.

But dont get your hopes up high that reason is possible with the anti OWS crowd, cos very soon, even this thread will be filled with their armchair envy/hatred, self centred, bombostic egoistical diatribes and much more.

Either they dont understand, nor want to understand, perhaps their gravy train depended on it, which even some of the rich at least have some conscience to join in OWS. Warren Buffet, for all his faults, is one and started the ball rolling amongst the 1%, to acknowledg errors and seek for corrections.

But its ok. This is ATS. Everyone has a voice, freedom to speak out. BUT it is also one's freedom to response or ignore, for ATS is not congress or NYC. Everyone hides behind a nick here and can do wonders, but once F2F, I'll bet they will turn tail in doing what needs to done for the country, which right now, millions are suffering or soon to suffer. MF 'investments' are but the tip of iceburg, amongst many other issues that needs to be address.

We this generation had allowed such errors come to past today, and many still wish to cling on to the comfort and security of the old, even if enslaved. But like it or not, CHANGE is inevitable and is the only constant in life, more so in the face of glaring errors, and the innocent next generations whom look upon us for guidance. We can fail ourselves or be apathetic, but we must not fail and doom them. They are innocent, and must be allowed to have a choice that we had.

Originally posted by GeorgiaGirl
I'll bite.

It is VERY immature of the OWS supporters to constantly say things along the lines of "It's obvious...if you don't support us, it means there is something WRONG with YOU."

*We're Sheeple.
*We're stupid.
*We're sitting in front of the computer in our undies eating doritos.
*We're shills.
*We're plants, sent in by TPTB to complain.
*We're obviously part of the 1%.
*We're greedy, and don't care about anyone.

This argument is a failure, and makes those of you making it look petty.

Can you not understand that I can disagree with you without being ANY of the things I listed above?????

Your post exemplifies exactly what I'm describing. You cherry-picked from my post and misrepresented it, then you added in things I never said or even insinuated. I said nothing about you being wrong in any way other than the futility of complaining on a forum. I did say that dissent is necessary, and your dissent is no exception. I also pointed out the consequences of not participating in this movement whether you dissent against the government or the protesters.

I did call people who choose not to participate "sheople." Is it invalid to say that a person who has given up their potential for leadership is choosing to be a follower?

I said nothing about stupidity, shills, TPTB, greed or the 1% whatsoever.

The things I pointed out as obvious were not intended to support any particular view, and I don't think they provided any such support.

I did say that if you are only sitting behind a computer complaining, you are are unlikely to have your grievances heard by those involved in the movement. Is this not true?

I agree that your interpretation of my argument is a petty failure, but your interpretation of my argument bears little resemblance to my actual argument.

Originally posted by SeekerofTruth101
Kudos to you, OP for starting this thread.

But dont get your hopes up high that reason is possible with the anti OWS crowd, cos very soon, even this thread will be filled with their armchair envy/hatred, self centred, bombostic egoistical diatribes and much more.

Either they dont understand, nor want to understand, perhaps their gravy train depended on it, which even some of the rich at least have some conscience to join in OWS. Warren Buffet, for all his faults, is one and started the ball rolling amongst the 1%, to acknowledg errors and seek for corrections.

This has already degenerated and we are'nt even past page 1! One thing I would like to remind people about. The protests are worldwide not just US. So when US folks come out with the usual US centric problems and solutions (either side of the argument) they forget the bigger picture. We are in a global economy and it is failing for the vast majority of people of the world. It's all about too few people with too much wealth and power, even the arab spring is all about that, just more extreme due to governments being dictatorships.